The case for CIWL Night Sleeper Coaches

[Iltman]

Whilst it’s the wrong section of the SR I’d definitely buy a rake of the sleepers. I just missed a ride on the full size train and I’ve always had a soft spot for “The Ferry”.

[7013]

The responses so far have been generally positive which would be encouraging for Hornby. With two examples (Bluebell and NRM) they would be easy to scan etc. It is not out of the question the NRM taking on such a project.

I have built one of the MARC model coaches which are superb, but as already pointed out you would need a mighty loco to pull a rake of these. At just over £100 for a kit and £250 RTR they would be beyond a lot of modellers budget. However if a RTR came in around £50-60 mark I am sure they would move.

[rovex]

The responses so far have been generally positive which would be encouraging for Hornby. With two examples (Bluebell and NRM) they would be easy to scan etc. It is not out of the question the NRM taking on such a project.

 

If Hornby are going to be persuaded by 27 posts, to spend several tens of thousands of pounds on a new set of coaching stock, we'd have had toplights and non-corridor GWR stock ages ago.

 

So tongue firmly in cheek can I just add,

 

I certainly won't be buying any at all, never, not even second hand.

[Joseph_Pestell]

If Hornby are going to be persuaded by 27 posts, to spend several tens of thousands of pounds on a new set of coaching stock, we'd have had toplights and non-corridor GWR stock ages ago.

 

So tongue firmly in cheek can I just add,

 

I certainly won't be buying any at all, never, not even second hand.

 

Except that, as pointed out elsewhere, there are a lot of different types of GW stock - complicated for a manufacturer.

 

Night Ferry stock would be much simpler to do and is a good fit with other Hornby products.

[Nearholmer]

Keep up the good work chaps!

 

Several of us are gently pressuring the 'tinplate revival' manufacturers to make this coach in retro-0, and it is noticeable that they watch the 00 market, see what sells well there, and 'tailgate'.

 

We have got a Terrier and a Yank Tank on that basis, and are soon to get an Adams Radial, so if you all persuade a r-t-r maker in 00, it will make our job easier.

 

I think there was only one type of coach involved (F?), so compared with tooling for the Brighton Belle or most other Pullman trains, tooling for the NF is a cinch. Even if both the British and French fourgons are included it still only adds up to three.

 

Kevin

[HonestTom]

I think a lot of what sells is what people like rather than what they actually need. How many people can actually justify a Beattie well tank, an Adams radial, a Metropolitan Bo-Bo or the prototype Deltic in terms of what they model? While in theory, only a handful of modellers could justify these coaches, I think a lot of people would buy them just because they look good.

 

Might it be time to dust off the old Triang Fourgon tooling for the Railroad range?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Might it be time to dust off the old Triang Fourgon tooling for the Railroad range?

 

I don't remember that one. Have you got a photo?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Keep up the good work chaps!

 

Several of us are gently pressuring the 'tinplate revival' manufacturers to make this coach in retro-0, and it is noticeable that they watch the 00 market, see what sells well there, and 'tailgate'.

 

We have got a Terrier and a Yank Tank on that basis, and are soon to get an Adams Radial, so if you all persuade a r-t-r maker in 00, it will make our job easier.

 

I think there was only one type of coach involved (F?), so compared with tooling for the Brighton Belle or most other Pullman trains, tooling for the NF is a cinch. Even if both the British and French fourgons are included it still only adds up to three.

 

Kevin

Not tinplate, but didn't Westdale do this in 0?

[Nearholmer]

JP

 

I think you might be right.

 

AVS

 

Wrong fourgon, I think. The SNCF ones used latterly had no 'birdcage', and were longer. I've seen pickiest of the train in France, in the early years, with 'birdcage' fourgons in the consist, but I don't think those ones crossed the channel.

 

K

[Cor-onGRT4]

I think a lot of what sells is what people like rather than what they actually need. How many people can actually justify a Beattie well tank, an Adams radial, a Metropolitan Bo-Bo or the prototype Deltic in terms of what they model? While in theory, only a handful of modellers could justify these coaches, I think a lot of people would buy them just because they look good.

 

Might it be time to dust off the old Triang Fourgon tooling for the Railroad range?

Indeed, i don't buy what I need , i buy what i like, it is nice when manufactures make something i really would have, but i am not dissapointed if they don't.

So many new stuff , there's always something for me .

And if it is a  striking livery like the Bachmann H1 ,SECR coaches, then i take it, always a place for it, even it is not the period i collect.

I think we may all be very happy, all these manufactures make all these wonderfull models, and even if not everyone get at once what he/she wants,

but look at how many effort they make to please most of us.

I think we all must be happy what is comming today ,compared with 40 years ago, when it were only a few models over a period of years.

 

And certainly not the quality we get today     

 

But whenever these F CIWL coaches appeared, i certainly buy some, even i don't need them, but because i like them

Edited January 24, 2018 by Cor-onGRT4

[truffy]

I believe there would be plenty of takers given how well some of these locos sell and will almost certainly sell.

 

I believe Hornby could be on to a winner producing these, or perhaps a retail commission.

Make them applicable to the early years (pre-war) and I'm in!

 

Given the possibility of a birdcage fourgon, perhaps Bachmann might do something here?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If Hornby are going to be persuaded by 27 posts, to spend several tens of thousands of pounds on a new set of coaching stock, we'd have had toplights and non-corridor GWR stock ages ago...

Then  consider that with no postings of any sort Hornby embarked on - and have subsequently continued with - a profusion of newly tooled Pullman cars to the extent of over twenty distinct types since commencing production in China. I was frankly amazed when they popped up with the QoS all steel K cars quite recently, having long reckoned that bashing these out of their earlier  flush sided versions of the K types was going to be necessary to make myself an ER Pullman set.

 

I estimate that Hornby's Pullman range is pretty much the same in quantity as the all-newly tooled gangwayed coaches for the Big Four and BR introduced over the same period. There must be a reason for their marching out these rarities in such numbers. As such adding one more rarity of similar description which will both go well with a whole heap of their traction productions and operated in a corner of the UK network that is very apparently the hot spot of the moment looks pretty much inevitable.

 

And it does no harm to the prospects of Hornby turning out alternative vehicles in future: if as seems likely to me a CIWL wagon-lits proves as popular as the Pullman cars must have been to encourage their production in such quantity, that should bring in the profit that will help their business thrive...

[Robin Brasher]

Ace Trains is planning to produce some Wagon-Lits coaches in 0 gauge. If these are successful perhaps Hornby will consider making some in 00 gauge.

 

Shamrock Trains that market Ace Trains has provided a lot of interesting information about the prototype at https://www.shamrocktrains.com/posts/night-ferry

[Nearholmer]

Robin

 

My interest in this thread is in helping push Ace good intent across the line.

 

That announcement has been on shamrock’s website for a while, and I’ve not seen the coach in the 2018 programme.

 

Kevin

[truffy]

The Ace site raises an interesting point. For those of us with pre-war inclination, who cannot rely on Merchant Navy Pacifics, will need D1/L1 locos to double-head the train.

Edited January 25, 2018 by truffy

[Nearholmer]

Yes, and Hornby L1s are already dreadfully ‘sought after’ ....... could I interest Sir in a 4-4-2 Lord Nelson?

[Robin Brasher]

The Hornby 0 gauge L1 looked authentic unlike the Lord Nelson. Given that the 'Night Ferry' was double headed I wonder if Malcome Root's picture is an accurate depiction of the 'Night Ferry'.

 

In 00 gauge Tri-ang Hornby did produce an L1 and an inaccurate Wagon Lits coach so it would be possible to recreate the 'Night Ferry' with their forthcoming Lord Nelson.

[Forester]

The Hornby 0 gauge L1 looked authentic unlike the Lord Nelson. Given that the 'Night Ferry' was double headed I wonder if Malcome Root's picture is an accurate depiction of the 'Night Ferry'.

 

In 00 gauge Tri-ang Hornby did produce an L1 and an inaccurate Wagon Lits coach so it would be possible to recreate the 'Night Ferry' with their forthcoming Lord Nelson.

 

Nelsons managed the Night Ferry on their own pre-WW2.

Original Merchant Navy locos managed on their own post WW2.

 

It was the handing over of the Golden Arrow to Britannias and West Country locos, which they could handle, that left the Stewart's Lane Merchant Navy locos with not enough work to justify keeping a full stable of them just for the Night Ferry. The West Countries/BoBs needed double-heading.

 

Edited:  to add that when available the one or two remaining Stewart's Lane MNs continued to work the Night Ferry unaided on occasions.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Forester

[7013]

Whilst this did not set out to be a crusade, I think it is worth highlighting some of the salient points. 

As Rovex rightly points out models are not commissioned on a limited number of posts, however it is also noted that many relatively obscure and niche models are produced without any prior expressions of interest, but have sold very well anyway.

There are many more positive posts than negative, also the postings link well to all gauges which can only be encouraging.

When one gauge (not exclusively but frequently OO) get something there is hightened awareness and demand in the other gauges and manufacturers take note and follow suit..

Hornby in the past used to post teasers most of which have had a habit of going into production, remember the blurred W4 in the background of one of its videos?

I would like to believe that the cover of the new catalogue is one such teaser, I may be wrong but why post a picture of your latest loco pulling something that is not in your range and not generally available in RTR? However as pointed out they have plenty of locos that would look good heading the Night Sleeper.

Finally and most importantly...I can dream cant I?

[truffy]

I would like to believe that the cover of the new catalogue is one such teaser, I may be wrong but why post a picture of your latest loco pulling something that is not in your range and not generally available in RTR? However as pointed out they have plenty of locos that would look good heading the Night Sleeper.

Strictly speaking, 855 isn't in their range, but other class locos are. I agree that the carriages on that cover are definitely interesting. Definitely worth dreaming!

 

(And while a LN could lead this, a suitable double-header would add interest).

[7013]

This is a rather simple conversion I carried out on two old Tri-ang pullmans I had kicking around.

[G-BOAF]

Just to fan the flames, latest engine shed blog talks about the LN teaser picture from late 2017, and then juxtaposes this with the following:

 

"We suspected releasing censored versions of the catalogue cover would encourage speculation and get the community talking. Much like the item "left" in the background of a photo or video in the blog, these discussions are always very interesting, and we hope, enjoyable for you too."

 

Now I'm probably reading too much into this, but you could argue that the chosen painting on the catalogue, 'left' the coaches in the background of the image... So maybe this thread is not too far fetched... :-p

[Nearholmer]

When talking about motive power, it’s important to remember that the train loaded differently at various times of year.

 

There was also a period after the war, to the early fifties when there weren’t enough cars to meet demand - I think the consist couldn’t go above maybe six sleepers at that time, although, of course, there were ordinary coaches too.

 

A quick google and a ferret through some books confirmed that original WC/BoB were used on their own when the train wasn’t too heavy (five or six sleepers?) even into the 1960s, and that a Brittania was used on it sometimes. Ive also seen reference to it being hauled by a KA, rather than an LN, pre-war, but I haven’t found a photo.

 

If ever the mythical tinplate 0 coaches emerge, I can’t imagine being able to afford many, and my layout is too small for whopper trains anyway, so it will forever be November, with a short formation headed by a BoB.

[Joseph_Pestell]

http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/fourgon.html

 

By the looks of things, they were produced in both TT and 00 gauge.

 

As Nearholmer says, that is a goods brake. I'm not sure why Triang would have produced that.

 

The luggage fourgons used on the Night Ferry were quite different. I have photos and drawings somewhere in a file.

[Joseph_Pestell]

This is a rather simple conversion I carried out on two old Tri-ang pullmans I had kicking around.

Interior does not look very comfortable to sleep in.