The case for CIWL Night Sleeper Coaches

[truffy]

1 hour ago, 47137 said:

I'll call her Mm Noch or Mm Preiser.

 

Shome mishtake shurely?

 

(Frau Noch or Frau Preiser)

[Joseph_Pestell]

I was only 13 when I took the Night Ferry, so no "femme fatale" for me.

 

Although, oddly enough, a rather lovely girl (student probably) took some interest in me when I got to Paris. Pity I had a train to catch at Montparnasse.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Perhaps one of us should announce that we are commissioning a Night Sleeper model in OO.

 

On recent form, that should push Hornby into doing it.

[SteveyDee68]

On 23/01/2018 at 17:38, Neil said:

An interesting prospect+, it reminds me I really need to blow the dust of this one and make some further progress towards completion.

 

 

Somewhere I also have a pair of the Playcraft (Jouef) HO night ferry sleepers.

 

 

 

This is the model that has set me onto my own quest for a night ferry model, linked to my interest in ships, docks and dock shunters, and now the crazy idea to do what The Wardleworth Lines did (in N gauge) and build a train ferry! Having spent a long time searching for 1:76 kits for larger ships, I've reached the conclusion that I can either pay a fortune to have one made or attempt to build it myself! If only I had John Wiffen's skills at creating hulks in card! (See Scalescenes for his range of ships!)

[SteveyDee68]

On 26/01/2018 at 13:41, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

As Nearholmer says, that is a goods brake. I'm not sure why Triang would have produced that.

 

The luggage fourgons used on the Night Ferry were quite different. I have photos and drawings somewhere in a file.

 

Joseph - would you be willing too share, please? PM if not public?

Regards

Steve S

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Joseph - would you be willing too share, please? PM if not public?

Regards

Steve S

 

Steve,

Happy to share. Will send by PM.

Joseph

[RFS]

There's a thread on the Fourgons here which includes some links to pictures - 

 

[roythebus]

I remember on my driver training MP12 course being taken to Victoria to learn about the MLVs and all of us trying to look round the Night Ferry stock berthed in the same shed. It was securely locked to prevent us getting out grubby mits and oily boots on it!

 

But then as an Addiscombe driver we had a turn where we would pass the up Night Sleeper somewhere around Dunton Green every morning. Happy days.

 

[sncf231e]

 

There were British and French fourgons for the Night Ferry.

 

Some pics of the SNCF Night Ferry fourgon in H0 by MMMRG

 

Darstaed is planning a sleeper and fourgon (Southern Railway version) in 0 gauge:

https://www.darstaed.com/products_DCH7a.html

 

Regards

Fred

Edited August 18, 2019 by sncf231e

[Wickham Green]

The French guard's vans seem to have lost their 'birdcages' some time in the fifties - the MARC Models kits doesn't include - and that MIGHT have been the same time they acquired a lavatory compartment ......... there were changes to the bodyside fenestration too - so, as usual, a dated photograph is the only way to an accurate model ........................ anyone got a decent fourgon photo for 1948-ish ?

[sncf231e]

Some pictures are in the magazine Ferrovissime april 2012:

http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/ferrovissime/numero-48-avril-2012/page-30-31-texte-integral

http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/ferrovissime/numero-48-avril-2012/page-32-33-texte-integral

http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/ferrovissime/numero-48-avril-2012/page-34-35-texte-integral

Regards

Fred

 

[47137]

On 19/08/2019 at 11:30, Wickham Green said:

The French guard's vans seem to have lost their 'birdcages' some time in the fifties - the MARC Models kits doesn't include - and that MIGHT have been the same time they acquired a lavatory compartment ......... there were changes to the bodyside fenestration too - so, as usual, a dated photograph is the only way to an accurate model ........................ anyone got a decent fourgon photo for 1948-ish ?

 

I am looking at the book "Night Ferry" by Behrend and Buchanan. Appendix 4 gives details of the fourgons. There are three drawings here - the Southern vans (these had a birdcage) and the two designs of ex-Nord vans, with and without a guard's compartment. The drawings and the text don't mention a birdcage on the Nord vans.

 

This doesn't answer your question of course, but it make me wonder whether the MMM RG model (photos above) with birdcage is correct, as a Night Ferry vehicle. I'm sure some photos will come to light. I would be very happy indeed to own any of the MMM RG models with the ferry symbol.

 

- Richard.

 

[sncf231e]

In the book Ferry Boat de Nuit 1936-1980 of the International Railway Preservation Society chapter 17 contains the formation of the Night Ferry (which are taken from the book "60 Ans de composition de Train de nuit français"). In 1951-1952 a fourgon of the type Dqyd2mg is listed (where q is vigie centrale (central birdcage) and y is with bogies) and a fourgon of the type Dqd2mg is shown. Something wrong there, but I assume it is the Dqd2mg since that is the one I have  and I have never seen a bogie van on any Night Ferry picture.

 

Regards

Fred 

[Wickham Green]

57 minutes ago, 47137 said:

 

I am looking at the book "Night Ferry" by Behrend and Buchanan. Appendix 4 gives details of the fourgons. There are three drawings here - the Southern vans (these had a birdcage) and the two designs of ex-Nord vans, with and without a guard's compartment. The drawings and the text don't mention a birdcage on the Nord vans. ......

 

Indeed - but look through the photos and you'll see it ............. the other similarity with the Southern ferry vans is that he guard's compartment is exactly the same length - no doubt by agreement with the unions both sides of La Manche ........... but I've never figured out why the Southern insisted in painting their vans C.I.W.L. blue when the French vans weren't - and were a similar colour to the Southern's own green as it happens !

[Wickham Green]

2 minutes ago, sncf231e said:

In the book Ferry Boat de Nuit 1936-1980 of the International Railway Preservation Society chapter 17 contains the formation of the Night Ferry (which are taken from the book "60 Ans de composition de Train de nuit français"). In 1951-1952 a fourgon of the type Dqyd2mg is listed (where q is vigie centrale (central birdcage) and y is with bogies) and a fourgon of the type Dqd2mg is shown. Something wrong there, but I assume it is the Dqd2mg since that is the one I have  and I have never seen a bogie van on any Night Ferry picture.

 

Regards

Fred 

I've never managed to get my head round those diagrams ........ but there is a very clear photo of a brand-new four-wheeler with birdcage in that book - a trial run at Dover with the reach wagon.

[47137]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

Indeed - but look through the photos and you'll see it .............!

 

Please, could you give a page number? I've thumbed through the book three times and I can find only SR fourgons with birdcages and Nord ones without!

 

- Richard.

[truffy]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

...a trial run at Dover...

Surely there was no need for a trial run if it was a fourgon conclusion?

 

IGMC.

[Wickham Green]

18 hours ago, 47137 said:

 

Please, could you give a page number? I've thumbed through the book three times and I can find only SR fourgons with birdcages and Nord ones without!

 

- Richard.

OK, they're not the clearest shots in this book - but page 54 lower and page 55 upper show birdcage fourgons ................. most of the photos are later but it looks like they survived to the mid fifties.

[Wickham Green]

18 hours ago, truffy said:

Surely there was no need for a trial run if it was a fourgon conclusion?

 

IGMC.

It's the 'conclusion' of the train that really intrigues me ........ we know about the assorted vans at the front - with our without cage d'oiseaux - then a number of Wagons Lit, then ( after the war ) a Maunsell dining twin followed by a Pullman at times and ................ and what ?  -  Inteligent ( surely not ) guesses can be made - but there seem to be no hard facts - and no photographer EVER pointed their camera at a receding train, did they.

[dibber25]

On 22/08/2019 at 09:18, Wickham Green said:

It's the 'conclusion' of the train that really intrigues me ........ we know about the assorted vans at the front - with our without cage d'oiseaux - then a number of Wagons Lit, then ( after the war ) a Maunsell dining twin followed by a Pullman at times and ................ and what ?  -  Inteligent ( surely not ) guesses can be made - but there seem to be no hard facts - and no photographer EVER pointed their camera at a receding train, did they.

As far as I'm aware, regular 'seated' stock - so Maunsells, Bulleids and at the end, BR Mk1s. (CJL)

[Wickham Green]

10 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

As far as I'm aware, regular 'seated' stock - so Maunsells, Bulleids and at the end, BR Mk1s. (CJL)

Somewhere I've got the carriage working details for - I think - 1962 or 63 and could quote vehicle numbers for the Mk 1 stock - but, unfortunately, Mk1s and Bulleids are too late for my modelling interests so I'm putting together a selection of Maunsells for my train : Corridor First, Open Third, Brake Composite ( There were two 1st/2nd brakes created at about the same time as the Buffet twins - but it's purely a guess that these were for the 'Ferry' too. ) ...... a 'Nondescript' saloon or brake would have been a possibility - maybe even a 'Continental' .......

[47137]

On 21/08/2019 at 13:07, sncf231e said:

In the book Ferry Boat de Nuit 1936-1980 of the International Railway Preservation Society chapter 17 contains the formation of the Night Ferry (which are taken from the book "60 Ans de composition de Train de nuit français"). In 1951-1952 a fourgon of the type Dqyd2mg is listed (where q is vigie centrale (central birdcage) and y is with bogies) and a fourgon of the type Dqd2mg is shown. Something wrong there, but I assume it is the Dqd2mg since that is the one I have  and I have never seen a bogie van on any Night Ferry picture.

 

Regards

Fred 

 

I ordered up a copy of this book on the strength of your post and it has arrived today! By post from Coastal Shipping - service cannot be better than this.  The book needs careful study - looks good but no index.

 

On 22/08/2019 at 09:11, Wickham Green said:

OK, they're not the clearest shots in this book - but page 54 lower and page 55 upper show birdcage fourgons ................. most of the photos are later but it looks like they survived to the mid fifties.

 

Wow!! I guess, we know they are fourgons from the context. I would never have seen them. Many thanks :-)

 

On 22/08/2019 at 09:18, Wickham Green said:

It's the 'conclusion' of the train that really intrigues me ........ we know about the assorted vans at the front - with our without cage d'oiseaux - then a number of Wagons Lit, then ( after the war ) a Maunsell dining twin followed by a Pullman at times and ................ and what ?  -  Inteligent ( surely not ) guesses can be made - but there seem to be no hard facts - and no photographer EVER pointed their camera at a receding train, did they.

 

My new book has details of the formations in France for several years. If you tell me the year(s) of interest I could PM some scans but it's probably going beyond 'fair use' to post so much detail here. Maybe there are details of UK formations too, but I've only had minutes to flick through. I suspect this book is essential for anyone modelling the train. Looks good.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

On 22/08/2019 at 09:18, Wickham Green said:

It's the 'conclusion' of the train that really intrigues me ........ we know about the assorted vans at the front - with our without cage d'oiseaux - then a number of Wagons Lit, then ( after the war ) a Maunsell dining twin followed by a Pullman at times and ................ and what ?  -  Inteligent ( surely not ) guesses can be made - but there seem to be no hard facts - and no photographer EVER pointed their camera at a receding train, did they.

 

The Bluebell has a Maunsell corridor brake composite, refitted and used on the Night Ferry until 1966:

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/6686.html

 

I'm not sure - is this helpful or are you looking at an earlier period? I could look at the Railway Magazine, there were some articles in the 1930s when the train started.

 

- Richard.

[sncf231e]

I ordered a copy of "60 ans de compositions de trains de nuit français" (it is reduced in price https://trains.lrpresse.com/A-14051-60-ans-de-compositions-de-trains-de-nuit-francais.aspx).

In this book clearly is shown the SNCF 4-wheel fourgon with birdcage in the Night Ferry composition of the French side of the Channel for 1951-1952. So this was not completely correctly copied in the book Ferry Boat de Nuit 1936-1980. The book however does not mention a BR van.

Regards

Fred

Edited August 27, 2019 by sncf231e

[Wickham Green]

On 24/08/2019 at 10:11, 47137 said:

 

The Bluebell has a Maunsell corridor brake composite, refitted and used on the Night Ferry until 1966:

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/6686.html

 

I'm not sure - is this helpful or are you looking at an earlier period? I could look at the Railway Magazine, there were some articles in the 1930s when the train started.

 

- Richard.

Yes, perhaps an opportune moment to remind Hornby that 6686 was one of the few 1936 Brake Composites that didn't get converted to Driving Trailers and would be a relatively simple 'new' vehicle to add to their range.

 

6686 might have been standby for the 'Ferry' 'til '66 but Mk1 BCKs were the normal choice once they appeared - latterly in blue/grey, of course, which 6686 never carried..