Oxford announce the 5 Plank Wagon

[Penlan]

I'm in a difficult place here, because, Oxford's 7 plank 'Phillips, George & Co.,' wagon I saw at Warley, and having Swansea on the side, looked OK to me, for my circa 1910 layout - and at £8.50 each, I bought a couple.
Also at Warley I saw a 7mm wagon from POWSides of a 'Victor Grey', Swansea, so ordered a couple of 4mm from POWSides too.  Are they the right period, I don't know, but they 'feel' right.  Anyway they look nice - which probably means I'm damned - and running in one of my 30 wagon coal trains for going up the Central Wales line, there's plenty of colour    

I do have set trains of approx., 20 wagons each from 3 collieries, Clyne Valley, Penlan and Berthclwyd. 

The wagons themselves are varied due to different sources for the bodies and chassis', some RTR, some kit and the rest scratch built. 
Apart from sitting in the fiddle yard, any observation of my trains is when they are in motion trundling around the layout, so although I like to be accurate, there comes a point where the eyes just glaze over. 
I doubt however that I shall be buying the Oxford 5 planker as I have a collection of traders wagons awaiting finishing already, but IF there happens to be one that catches my eye, and somebody is desperate to buy me a 'present', that's another gift problem solved. 

The last 'present' I had in this manner was a copy

of the original 1908 edition of 'Scouting for Boys', snowflakes look away..

 

PS - Perhaps I'm one of those modellers Edwardian's referring to in post #21 - pre 1948, layout and born.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Penlan

[sem34090]

Fair points: I half-withdraw my argument!

 

And, from a personal viewpoint, I sort of wish that Oxford had chosen an earlier design, but it makes sense for them to make a model using their existing chassis.

 

One question though: How hard would it be for one to backdate any of the Oxford wagons (NBR one aside) to pre-grouping condition. How different is the RCH 1923 design to the earlier (1907?) design. I ask as I will need rather a lot of pre-grouping Welsh private-owner wagons (Along with Taff Vale ones!) for my ongoing Colliery Layout Project.

[Penlan]

One question though: How hard would it be for one to backdate any of the Oxford wagons (NBR one aside) to pre-grouping condition. How different is the RCH 1923 design to the earlier (1907?) design. I ask as I will need rather a lot of pre-grouping Welsh private-owner wagons (Along with Taff Vale ones!) for my ongoing Colliery Layout Project.

If your doing a pre-group South Wales colliery layout, then the vast majority of the wagons will have that one Colliery name.

So depending if they are available off the shelf, or transfers available, etc., that name might be easy to source.

I seem to recall Graham of the 'Ynysbwl' layout,  commissioned the necessary colliery name transfers, I can't remember where he sourced the wagons.

On some of my RTR wagons which have say 10' wb's, I've replaced them with Cambrian Models C34 wooden u/f kits, or the C35 steel u/f kits, both which give you a 9' wb.

 

The key additions to the 1923 RCH spec., according to A.J.Watts in his book '....Ince Wagon & Ironworks Co.,' was :

1.  Self contained buffers

2.  Divided Axlebox

3.  Brake blocks with two attachment lugs, one either end.

There were still wooden and iron u/f's.

1907 RCH was the radical spec., as the maximum body length was increased to 16' 6" for standard wagons.

But up to and including the 1923 spec., the max wb was retained at 9'.

So all those Bachman etc., wagons with a 9' 6" and 10' wb's are incorrect, BUT all E.& O.E.,

 

The above is in reference to bog standard 8, 10 & 12 ton mineral / coal wagons.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Penlan

[sem34090]

Thanks Penlan,

 

As my Colliery will be ficticious, can you possibly suggest any appropiate names (I.E. Companies who owned several pits, and preferably had their own locomotives!) within the TVR's area? If not I'll have to make one up...

 

It doesn't look like too much work to back-date the Oxford wagons to 1907-spec, so I'll probably follow that route. It seems, to me at any rate, the Oxford 1923-spec wagon is the best model of such a wagon out there. Glad I bought 2 3-packs of BR-Liveried (ex-PO) ones for roughly £10 more than one Bachmann pack! They will be destined for the same layout, but for it's 1950's operating era.

[tomparryharry]

Oooh! Stephenson Clarke, Bargoed.  Cambrian, Ely valley. Tirpentwys,  Pontypool, PJJP, Pontypool, Any of the 10,000 wagons, run by 1,000 collieries, Coal factors, railway companies, shipping companies, industrial end users, chemical end users,, etc. The delightful little Peckett was a local locomotive to Tymawr colliery, Pontypridd until the early sixties.

 

If you type in any of the collieries, Google will come up with the Welsh coal mining pages. These are listed by county, so Glamorgan, Monomouthshire, etc will be readily to hand. Happy hunting!

 

Ian

Edited January 25, 2018 by tomparryharry

[sem34090]

[Edwardian]

Thanks Penlan,

 

As my Colliery will be ficticious, can you possibly suggest any appropiate names (I.E. Companies who owned several pits, and preferably had their own locomotives!) within the TVR's area? If not I'll have to make one up...

 

It doesn't look like too much work to back-date the Oxford wagons to 1907-spec, so I'll probably follow that route. It seems, to me at any rate, the Oxford 1923-spec wagon is the best model of such a wagon out there. Glad I bought 2 3-packs of BR-Liveried (ex-PO) ones for roughly £10 more than one Bachmann pack! They will be destined for the same layout, but for it's 1950's operating era.

 

Can I just say, in reference to your post and to Penlan's:

 

Penlan is right and if you find a pre-RCH of the same body length and similar style, you could go a long way to improving it simply by using a Cambrian Kits underframe kit.  These come with both a 15'6" and 16'6" solebar (well, 2 of each, obviously!).

 

But, if, as you say, you are aiming for a fictitious owner (so you don't need the RTR livery on the body), why not simply make a kit?

 

Cambrian Kits are based on RCH 1907, but typical of earlier wagons, too, and I tell you as a beginner that they just fall together.

 

The one on the left is a real PO, using a POWSides pre-printed kit.  The one on the left is a fictitious PO (obviously), using an undecorated Cambrian Kit.  Both are pre1923.  

Edited January 25, 2018 by Edwardian

[Penlan]

... and as Edwardian will be aware I'm no stranger to fictitious PO's, the essential point is they have to be 'in the style of' contemporary liveries.

 

These are :-

'William Jones' of Holywell - He was a coal Merchant there, and I did have the late John Horton's Holywell Town layout for a while, but no eveidence Jones had any PO's.

Bettall Co-Op, this is actually the combination of the surnames Bettison & Croall - we were going to build a layout together some 30+ years ago, but...  Kevin has moved to Cornwall, so there's still time :-)
'DeggWood, John & Bill, very inspirational to me and the layout 'Penlan' was there former 'Hartwell'.

 

[Invicta]

Indeed, in a similar vein the ex-NBR 4-plank Jubilee wagon is being offered in guises based in Leistershire (Mountsorrel) and Derbyshire (Calico Printers, Birch Vale) which seem rather unlikely for a Scottish wagon design!

 

The 'Mountsorrel' livery, ironically would probably have been far more appropriate on the new 5-plank moulding, than on the NBR 4-plank...

 

... and as Edwardian will be aware I'm no stranger to fictitious PO's, the essential point is they have to be 'in the style of' contemporary liveries.

 

3 PO's.jpg

 

These are :-

'William Jones' of Holywell - He was a coal Merchant there, and I did have the late John Horton's Holywell Town layout for a while, but no eveidence Jones had any PO's.

Bettall Co-Op, this is actually the combination of the surnames Bettison & Croall - we were going to build a layout together some 30+ years ago, but...  Kevin has moved to Cornwall, so there's still time :-)

'DeggWood, John & Bill, very inspirational to me and the layout 'Penlan' was there former 'Hartwell'.

 

As you say, if you're going to have fictitious PO's, they need to look convincing and reflect the look of the real thing

 

Doesn't 'Copenhagen Fields' feature a number of wagons liveried with the names of the actors in 'The Ladykillers'? IIRC, I've also seen a layout at a show fairly recently with a rake of wagons parked in a siding bearing the liveries of a number of well-known 'local coal merchants'-  Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grubb...

[Edwardian]

Many of us, even when modelling a real railway company, will invent a location or lay a railway to a real place that never had a station.  Logically, in such cases, an equally fictitious coal merchant or lineside industry might seem appropriate, and many would justify their own fictitious wagon.

 

In order to 'need' a fictitious wagon livery, then, it is not necessary to go so far as I have done and invent the place, the railway company and the coal merchant!  Rather, most model railways would qualify.

 

But! there are fictitious liveries and there are fictitious liveries!

 

The point here, is, surely, that a prototypical yet freelance livery applied to an appropriate wagon is far more realistic than the sort of bogus marriage that Oxford are here proposing.  A wagon registered to a railway company that had ceased to exist before that wagon could have been built, or markings that insist that what is clearly a physical representation of a 12-ton wagon was rated only for 8 or 10 tons because the lettering is taken from an older, smaller capacity vehicle, are simply unprototypical.  I'd much rather have a string of Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grubb wagons that better represented prototype practice and, therefore, made more sense as models.

 

Other views are available, however, and it's no crime to run whatever you damn well like. If you are looking to capture a particular look or period, however, it surely helps to be aware when models are not what they pretend to be.  As has been said, wagon deception is still rife and has a long and ignoble tradition in the RTR trade.

 

My question is, do we need a new manufacturer with a new tooling, doing the same?  Here was a chance to do something different.  And better.

 

If Oxford chose to make a new wagon, accurately and with a livery that was compatible with the tooling, there would appear to be no reason why they could not have done so for the same price as a model on which the livery is not a match for the physical appearance of the wagon.  Why cheap excuses wrong in this context is something I've never understood.   

 

I still don't understand why Oxford could not either have dug out some liveries to suit the 1923 tooling, or, even better, filled a gap in the RTR wagon market by producing older prototypes that fit the liveries they have chosen.  Either would have been fine.  What they have chosen to do is just unhelpfully weird (in my view). Hey ho!

[Edwardian]

I freely admit I am a sucker for 'pretty' plank wagons, particularly form London & Southern regions, bonus points if they're from Brighton & Hove, purely because I'm a Brighton boy! I have no idea if any of them are remotely accurate or even real but they look the part and that's good enough for me, bare in mind my untrained eye still can not see what is wrong with Oxford Rail's Dean Goods

 

 

20180125_112704.jpg

 

Please don't feel the need to bare anything to me (even an untrained eye), or I'll have to post Kenneth again!

 

Fair play to you.  If you are free from the curse of changing personal standards, you will remain content with models you have, whereas I often hear of modellers who cease to be satisfied with what once delighted them!

 

There was something troubling me about your picture, though, and it's taken me until now to work out what it is.

 

The left-hand, green, Weymouth wagon appears to be transporting the base-plate of a German 88mm Flak gun!

[GreenGiraffe22]

 

The left-hand, green, Weymouth wagon appears to be transporting the base-plate of a German 88mm Flak gun!

Haha, honestly I couldn't remember what it was, was just an Airfix kit left over from my teen years that I chopped up

[mikeharvey22]

If Oxford chose to make a new wagon, accurately and with a livery that was compatible with the tooling, there would appear to be no reason why they could not have done so for the same price as a model on which the livery is not a match for the physical appearance of the wagon.  Why cheap excuses wrong in this context is something I've never understood.   

 

I still don't understand why Oxford could not either have dug out some liveries to suit the 1923 tooling, or, even better, filled a gap in the RTR wagon market by producing older prototypes that fit the liveries they have chosen.  Either would have been fine.  What they have chosen to do is just unhelpfully weird (in my view). Hey ho!

Of course you are right. But I suspect Oxford like many before them and after them will make a few liveries which satisfy the fastidious and many that do not. Their object is to make some money at what they are doing and pleasing people who choose to buy them. I think there is room for both approaches without it needing to cause reams and reams of correspondence. You have said elsewhere that you have effectively given up on Oxford but it is still nice to know that you really do seem to care.

[Edwardian]

Of course you are right. But I suspect Oxford like many before them and after them will make a few liveries which satisfy the fastidious and many that do not. Their object is to make some money at what they are doing and pleasing people who choose to buy them. I think there is room for both approaches without it needing to cause reams and reams of correspondence.

 

Two approaches, yes, but only one "excellence pursuing" brand, so only the consumer who knows his subject can distinguish between a reasonably accurate model and inaccurate cash-cow.

 

While not perfect in terms of what is in or out of it, at least Hornby Railroad, or, indeed, Bachmann Junior, ranges represent an honest distinction.

 

But all sin where wagons are concerned, so, yes, not the best example.  

 

 

You have said elsewhere that you have effectively given up on Oxford but it is still nice to know that you really do seem to care.

 

 

Each new release announced deserves consideration on its own merits and an open mind.

 

Naturally expectations have somewhat diminished by now, but this will serve me right if Oxford release something brilliant, but I neglect to take note of it and miss out!

 

Anyway, I've said my piece.   

 

People should go on buying precisely what they want, and I've no doubt that they will!

[The Johnster]

I am a bit cynical perhaps, and am on record here as saying that I approve strongly of Oxford, their pricing policy, and the 'pursuit of excellence'; like many others, I am coming to the conclusion that it is a pursuit and excellence is outpacing Oxford at the moment.  I have little hope for much improvement now the company is involved with Hornby, who may or may not be a dead duck that takes Ox down with them.

 

Ox do not have a bad record with open wagons though, and have showed the way with posable hand brakes.  One or two of these 4 plankers in early BR condition might well appear at Cwmdimbath...

[PenrithBeacon]

IIRC 5 plank PO wagons were unusual, most were 7 or 8 plank minerals ie coal. This isn't to say they didn't exist but they were a lot less common. I wonder if fictitious liveries would stand out more?

[The Stationmaster]

Two approaches, yes, but only one "excellence pursuing" brand, so only the consumer who knows his subject can distinguish between a reasonably accurate model and inaccurate cash-cow.

 

While not perfect in terms of what is in or out of it, at least Hornby Railroad, or, indeed, Bachmann Junior, ranges represent an honest distinction.

 

But all sin where wagons are concerned, so, yes, not the best example.  

 

 

Each new release announced deserves consideration on its own merits and an open mind.

 

Naturally expectations have somewhat diminished by now, but this will serve me right if Oxford release something brilliant, but I neglect to take note of it and miss out!

 

Anyway, I've said my piece.   

 

People should go on buying precisely what they want, and I've no doubt that they will!

 

I think you're hitting various nails on their badly protruding heads, and in many minds 'In pursuit of excellence' is becoming the latest nuspeak equivalent of 'design clever' - i.e. it's just another bit of marketing babble.

 

As far as I'm concerned Oxford can make what they like to whatever standard they like - as long as the standard implied in their marketing speak matches what is delivered.  And of course as they say they are 'in pursuit' they could equally, and truthfully, say 'but we're not claiming that we've got there'.  So perhaps we are expecting the results of them having got there while they are in reality claiming no such thing, merely that they are 'in pursuit of ...'.   Looking at them from that angle what they are actually doing is producing some cheap and occasionally cheerful stuff that is selling (we are told) as fast as they can import it (which doesn't exactly sit with their bargain bin at the Warley show - why have a bargain bin if you can sell the stuff anyway?).   So maybe we should henceforth regard them in a rather different light and ignore the marketing slogan (or understand what it literally says) and hope that occasionally they will hit the spot in the way the Carflats seem to have managed?

 

It looks as if they can get it right if they try, or if they are properly led (as with commissions) but a lot of the time they are simply going to follow a marketing model which works for them - low overheads, short cuts on research and development, occasionally coming up with left field items that will probably work well and sell like hot cakes, and low prices that draw in the punters who don't know or care about correct wagon underframes or engines  having washout plugs where they are any use.  Reasonable however in my view to bemoan the fact that new tooling is falling short and that stupid errors are occurring when it's not much harder or more expensive to do it right.  Not so unreasonable to pick them out from the crowd in respect of anachronistic wagon liveries as in that respect they are simply following British r-t-r tradition in offering the punters nice colourful wagons which happen to use the tooling they have.

[DavidR]

Fictitious wagons: I've built two. First a 7 plank 'Baltic Fat & Grease Co.', Cardiff (I saw the name on the side of a building in a railway book, somewhere) and the local merchant in Elbw Vale - Parry Hotter & Son,(my twisted sense of humour at work!).another 7 plank. 

[The Johnster]

I think you're hitting various nails on their badly protruding heads, and in many minds 'In pursuit of excellence' is becoming the latest nuspeak equivalent of 'design clever' - i.e. it's just another bit of marketing babble.

 

As far as I'm concerned Oxford can make what they like to whatever standard they like - as long as the standard implied in their marketing speak matches what is delivered.  And of course as they say they are 'in pursuit' they could equally, and truthfully, say 'but we're not claiming that we've got there'.  So perhaps we are expecting the results of them having got there while they are in reality claiming no such thing, merely that they are 'in pursuit of ...'.   Looking at them from that angle what they are actually doing is producing some cheap and occasionally cheerful stuff that is selling (we are told) as fast as they can import it (which doesn't exactly sit with their bargain bin at the Warley show - why have a bargain bin if you can sell the stuff anyway?).   So maybe we should henceforth regard them in a rather different light and ignore the marketing slogan (or understand what it literally says) and hope that occasionally they will hit the spot in the way the Carflats seem to have managed?

 

It looks as if they can get it right if they try, or if they are properly led (as with commissions) but a lot of the time they are simply going to follow a marketing model which works for them - low overheads, short cuts on research and development, occasionally coming up with left field items that will probably work well and sell like hot cakes, and low prices that draw in the punters who don't know or care about correct wagon underframes or engines  having washout plugs where they are any use.  Reasonable however in my view to bemoan the fact that new tooling is falling short and that stupid errors are occurring when it's not much harder or more expensive to do it right.  Not so unreasonable to pick them out from the crowd in respect of anachronistic wagon liveries as in that respect they are simply following British r-t-r tradition in offering the punters nice colourful wagons which happen to use the tooling they have.

 

As usual I find myself in full agreement; 'In pursuit of excellence' is a classic corporate mission statement, in other words a meaningless phrase which somehow manages to improve the company's image but to which they cannot be held accountable.  Marketing hyperbabble.

[tomparryharry]

Fictitious wagons: I've built two. First a 7 plank 'Baltic Fat & Grease Co.', Cardiff (I saw the name on the side of a building in a railway book, somewhere) and the local merchant in Elbw Vale - Parry Hotter & Son,(my twisted sense of humour at work!).another 7 plank.

The hoarding on the shunting puzzle reads "Smasha, Bangham & Renchitt, Motor Engineers".

 

Ian.

[Edwardian]

 

 

occasionally they will hit the spot in the way the Carflats seem to have managed?

 

.

 

Hmm, not my area of interest, but are you sure about that?  See the Railway Modeller review.

 

Still, a man who maintains he has something 3 feet longer than it actually is could be a hit with the Ladies.

 

 

'Baltic Fat & Grease Co.',

 

Brilliant!

 

At Castle Aching we boast the Norfolk Fish Oil & Guano Company.

 

Largely because there was a Scottish Fish Oil & Guano Company!

[it's-er]

Well, folk have been debating on here just what the 5 plank wagon is, but apparently Oxford Rail were showing an EP at the London Toyfair held this week. Bawdsey of Albion Yard got a couple of photos, and has added some comment - here is the link to his photos

https://albionyard.wordpress.com/2018/01/26/oxford-rail-london-toy-fair-2018/

 

John S

[Edwardian]

Well, folk have been debating on here just what the 5 plank wagon is, but apparently Oxford Rail were showing an EP at the London Toyfair held this week. Bawdsey of Albion Yard got a couple of photos, and has added some comment - here is the link to his photos

https://albionyard.wordpress.com/2018/01/26/oxford-rail-london-toy-fair-2018/

 

John S

 

 

As this appears no different from the 5-plank the Bachmann has been producing for years (mainly, IIRC, but perhaps not always, with authentic liveries), I am not sure why it is thought the market would need such a release, other than to start a price war.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Edwardian

[tomparryharry]

Historically (at least, in South Wales) the 7 plank wagon van was predominant. It's all to do how much cheaper being the carrying capacity of the 12 tonner, as opposed to the 10-ton wagon. I'd guess you will see 5 plank wagons further afield, or as specialised loads. Special coal will sometimes (but not always) travel in smaller loads (breweries, chemicals, etc). Flour was the life-blood of the valleys, so you would see a lot of vans, with companies like Hopkin Morgan, Pontypridd, amongst many others. Many foundries will use copious amounts of flour, (second/third  rate foodstuff) used as a parting powder, and animal feed. A chain foundry, such as Brown Lennox, will use quite a bit of the stuff. 

 

You wouldn't normally see anything less than a 12 ton, 7 plank wagon on a locomotive job or diagram. A typical tank locomotive will carry what=  3 tons? On a big diagram, that's about 8 hours work. Little wonder, therefore, that the bigger wagon will still only last 72 hours. Naturally, the Western had their own N diagram coal wagons, with 10 ton & the Pole 20 tonner.  

 

The 4 & 5 plank have their own place on the railway. Building sand, roadstone, bricks, slates, timber, sanitary ware, wood, glass, terracotta finial work. refractory sand, etc. If you can get it in the 5 plank, the capacity is the limit.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

Edited January 27, 2018 by tomparryharry

[Edwardian]

 

The 4 & 5 plank have their own place on the railway. Building sand, roadstone, bricks, slates, timber, sanitary ware, wood, glass, terracotta finial work. refractory sand, etc. If you can get it in the 5 plank, the capacity is the limit.

 

 

 

Yes.  If you look at the currently available kit equivalent of this tooling - RCH 1923 5-planks from Cambrian Kits - you see that they are described as used for road stone, some having a metal sheeted floor for the purpose.