Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Annie]

I meant to post this earlier, but became distracted by the very useful Broad Gauge posts in response to me mentioning Brunel stations.

It's a fictitious PO 5 plank wagon for my Norfolk layout with Kings Oak being mythically out there somewhere beyond the boundaries of my little railway empire.

While studying old OS maps I'd noticed that some 19th century iron works had biblically inspired names so that was all the excuse I needed to create 'Antioch Iron Founders'.

 

[Edwardian]

6 hours ago, Annie said:

Now that is a pleasingly naughty thought.

 

Pleasing thoughts generally are!

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

I meant to post this earlier, but became distracted by the very useful Broad Gauge posts in response to me mentioning Brunel stations.

It's a fictitious PO 5 plank wagon for my Norfolk layout with Kings Oak being mythically out there somewhere beyond the boundaries of my little railway empire.

While studying old OS maps I'd noticed that some 19th century iron works had biblically inspired names so that was all the excuse I needed to create 'Antioch Iron Founders'.

 

 

Mythic indeed.

 

What a splendid choice of name. Outlandish and whimsical, yet actually exactly what a Victorian enterprise might call itself. 

 

I am of the generation of nerdy boys who cannot see a reference to Antioch, one of the great Patriarchies of the early church, without thinking of the ...

 

 

I suspect three is the number ye should have of such wagons ....

 

Nicely done. King's Oak is a great place name and I particularly like the little touch of the star.

 

Perhaps a nice black Y14 will soon be necessary?

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

I am of the generation of nerdy boys who cannot see a reference to Antioch, one of the great Patriarchies of the early church, without thinking of the ...

Don't worry James a certain nerdy girl makes the same association on seeing a reference to Antioch despite her studies into the early church.

 

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

I suspect three is the number ye should have of such wagons ....

 

Nicely done. King's Oak is a great place name and I particularly like the little touch of the star.

Three it will be then and I wonder if any will discern the reference.

 

I believe 'Kings Oak' was the name of a town in a long running television series only I can't bring its title to mind now.  Whatever the source it's a name I've made my own now and there are a couple of other PO wagons on my layout that claim Kings Oak as home.

 

The star was a pure experiment.  There seemed to be a gap on the wagon side door that needed 'something' and another word wasn't it.  Paint.NET's toolbox has a tool that can create stars in various shapes and forms among other things so I gave it a go and it was absolutely the perfect touch.

[Regularity]

10 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Brunel's betamax v. Stephenson's VHS

What a splendid (and tactful) way to put it.

 

9 hours ago, Annie said:

Now that is a pleasingly naughty thought.

 

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Pleasing thoughts generally are!

And likewise for naughty thoughts!

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Annie said:

The star was a pure experiment.  There seemed to be a gap on the wagon side door that needed 'something' and another word wasn't it.  Paint.NET's toolbox has a tool that can create stars in various shapes and forms among other things so I gave it a go and it was absolutely the perfect touch.

 

Now if it had been a pentangle, it would have indicated a wagon on hire from the Birmingham RC&W Co.

[Compound2632]

16 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

The idea of the GWR absorbing the Birmingham-Bristol line and laying broad gauge is one I've found very fun for a while now. 

 

Being the particular sort of pedant I am, I can't let that pass without observing that the Bristol & Gloucester was broad gauge. It and the standard gauge Birmingham & Gloucester were on the verge of amalgamation and selling out to the Great Western when John Ellis, deputy chairman of the Midland, happened to meet two Bristol & Gloucester directors in a railway carriage travelling to a meeting with the Great Western board, and made them a better offer. The Midland also made overtures to the Bristol & Exeter, so I amend your remark:

Quote

The idea of the MR absorbing the Exeter-Bristol line and laying standard gauge is one I've found very fun for a while now. 

 

[Annie]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Being the particular sort of pedant I am, I can't let that pass without observing that the Bristol & Gloucester was broad gauge. It and the standard gauge Birmingham & Gloucester were on the verge of amalgamation and selling out to the Great Western when John Ellis, deputy chairman of the Midland, happened to meet two Bristol & Gloucester directors in a railway carriage travelling to a meeting with the Great Western board, and made them a better offer. The Midland also made overtures to the Bristol & Exeter, so I amend your remark:

Makes me wonder what might have happened if Mr Ellis had missed his train.  The Midland making overtures to the Bristol & Exeter though that is a thought I find almost too horrible to contemplate, - almost an obscenity.

 

WARNING! Immediate Broad Gauge cheer up picture required!.  This is not a drill!

 

Gooch Standard Goods Engine 'Tay' with Bristol & Exeter Tender. at Westbourne Park Shed circa 1880.

[MikeOxon]

You are finding some interesting BG photos that I hadn't seen before.  'Tay' has an interesting cab shape, which appears to follow the curve of the firebox.  It has also been fitted with Giffard injectors, invented in 1858, which set an earliest possible date for the photo.

 

Mike

[CKPR]

There's some rather nice broad gauge modelling (3mm/1') in the current edition of MRJ. 

[Annie]

The picture is a shameless steal from the Broad Gauge Society's Farcebook page Mike.  According to the notes with the picture the photo is thought to have been taken not long before withdrawal in 1881.  Yes the cab is unusual and not a type that I've seen on a Gooch Standard Goods before.

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

The picture is a shameless steal from the Broad Gauge Society's Farcebook page Mike. 

I don't use any 'social media' so I'd missed seeing that.  I never understand how 19th century photos are often marked as 'copyright', when they must surely have entered the public domain many years ago.  I think a lot of publishers try their luck or deliberately confuse a 'reproduction fee' with 'copyright'

 

According to 'Wikipedia':

"Under the [UK] Copyright Act 1842 the copyright period lasted for the lifetime of the author plus 7 years, or for 42 years from first publication, whichever was longer.

The Copyright Act 1911 provided a longer copyright period, namely the life of the author plus 50 years, for works that were first published after 1 July 1912; thus the date of first publication became irrelevant, provided it was after July 1912. This was retained as the period of copyright under the Copyright Act of 1956 and under the 1988 Act.

In 1995 the period of copyright was extended to the life of the author plus 70 years ... for works which were, at that time, still within copyright anywhere within the European Economic Area."

 

Since new legislation cannot be retrospective, I would assume from this that anything produced by someone who died before 1945 would have lapsed out of copyright before the '70 year' rule was introduced and anything before 1912 would usually have lapsed before 1954.

 

Mike 

[Annie]

Mike, that's exactly how I feel about people who purchased a pile of old photos at an estate sale and are suddenly claiming 'copyright' on ebay or one of those photo sites like alamy.com.  With pre-1940s photos my attitude is if you personally didn't take the photo then bog off because you haven't got a leg to stand on with claiming copyright.  Alamy in particular is notorious for claiming rights to old photos and illustrations that are in the public domain. 

And you are quite right about reproduction fees not being the same thing as copyright.

I don't think we have to worry about the Broad Gauge Society claiming money grubbing copyright on anything though.

[Regularity]

The picture may itself be out of copyright, but the source (e.g. book) in which it was reproduced my still be subject to copyright. It is possible for a scan of a photo to be outside of copyright, but for the caption accompanying it to still be in copyright.

[MikeOxon]

15 minutes ago, Regularity said:

The picture may itself be out of copyright, but the source (e.g. book) in which it was reproduced my still be subject to copyright. It is possible for a scan of a photo to be outside of copyright, but for the caption accompanying it to still be in copyright.

I think that's a useful summary of the situation with books.

M

[Annie]

4 minutes ago, Regularity said:

The picture may itself be out of copyright, but the source (e.g. book) in which it was reproduced my still be subject to copyright. It is possible for a scan of a photo to be outside of copyright, but for the caption accompanying it to still be in copyright.

Yes that's correct and I have no arguement at all with that.

 

And you just knew I was going to have a go at this.  I didn't want to follow Mike Sharman's plan as even taken out to 18ft for 'O' gauge it's still very cramped and I was also limited by the types of Broad Gauge wagon turntables that are available in Trainz with none of them being a complete match.  It also looks like Mike Sharman used some very tight radius points to get everything to fit and as flexible as the Broad Gauge digital track I use is it didn't like being made to curve that tight.

I have another Broad Gauge station I've done some work on and what I hope to do is eventually install these two stations into a larger layout.

 

[Northroader]

The best thing when designing a broad gauge layout is to forget about points, they’re far too long and a damn nuisance.

the thing that hits me with that “Tay” picture is the tender, nothing like any other tender I’ve seen. Presumably the tank fitted down behind the wheels?

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

the thing that hits me with that “Tay” picture is the tender, nothing like any other tender I’ve seen. Presumably the tank fitted down behind the wheels?

I know nothing about broad gauge locos, but I would assume that the top row of rivets indicates the top of the tank.

 

Jim

[simonmcp]

5 hours ago, Annie said:

Mike, that's exactly how I feel about people who purchased a pile of old photos at an estate sale and are suddenly claiming 'copyright' on ebay or one of those photo sites like alamy.com.  With pre-1940s photos my attitude is if you personally didn't take the photo then bog off because you haven't got a leg to stand on with claiming copyright.  Alamy in particular is notorious for claiming rights to old photos and illustrations that are in the public domain. 

And you are quite right about reproduction fees not being the same thing as copyright.

I don't think we have to worry about the Broad Gauge Society claiming money grubbing copyright on anything though.

Being a graphic designer and society magazine art editor (posh name for dogs body) I do know a little about UK copyright law. I don't know anything about any other countries copyright law though. In the UK copyright of any visual work is in the actual piece of work, it precludes the reproduction (copying) of the exact image in whatever form (there is very complex case law about how much alteration is needed to make it not an exact reproduction).

 

So if you have an original plate negative you can, after copyright has elapsed, make and sell copies.

 

What you can't do is reproduce an image that has been generated by someone else from a copy that they possess, or a scan of a book or an image from the internet, especially one with a watermark.

 

That is obviously a gross over simplification, as with most laws the copyright one runs to countless impenetrable pages of mind numbing complexity.

 

I agree though that there are a lot of companies out there who are using scare tactics to try and make people pay for images that are also in the public domain (just don't reproduce their copies as that is against UK copyright law). I personally am not going to name any of them because I know people who have been sent rather large bills by them.

[Edwardian]

I'm with Annie. It's all b0ll0cks and I don't really care about copyright law in the sort of context we're dealing with; it's opportunistic @rses asserting rights over something someone else did. I have no patience with it.

 

My view is, by all means, have a go. I enjoy my job, and ....

 

 

So, come on if you think you're hard enough.

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, simonmcp said:

..........................What you can't do is reproduce an image that has been generated by someone else from a copy that they possess, or a scan of a book or an image from the internet, especially one with a watermark.

..........................

I'm rather surprised by your interpretation. 

 

According to the UKGov website:

"Simply creating a copy of an image won’t result in a new copyright in the new item..........

However, according to established case law, the courts have said that copyright can only subsist in subject matter that is original in the sense that it is the author’s own ‘intellectual creation’. Given this criterion, it seems unlikely that what is merely a retouched, digitised image of an older work can be considered as ‘original’. This is because there will generally be minimal scope for a creator to exercise free and creative choices if their aim is simply to make a faithful reproduction of an existing work."

 

I hardly think that adding a watermark constitutes 'intellectual creation'.

 

Mike

[Annie]

Is it safe for me to come out and talk about my trainset now?

 

5 hours ago, Northroader said:

The best thing when designing a broad gauge layout is to forget about points, they’re far too long and a damn nuisance.

I could almost agree with you Mr Northroader.  Where it's possible to layout stations & etc at true scale distances then Broad Gauge point work is just a bit inconveniently on the large side.  On the other hand though if you're stuck for space it really isn't going to work.

In theory I shouldn't have any problems at all in the digital world, but with my present Brunel station project I made it harder for myself by retaining the wagon turntable from Mike Sharman's trackplan and the only model turntable I can use isn't exactly ideal.

 

This is where I'm up to at the moment.  The trackwork is spaced correctly and aligned about as best as I can get it.  For 'O' gauge the station is presently 18 feet long which is a bit short still, but I'll see how I go.

 

The turntable is pretty much decorative since it would have been worked by railway staff pushing rolling stock on and off the turntable.  I have a functional and animated shunting horse model, but it's not really a lot of use in this situation.

 

 

Steve Flanders very kindly made the Brunel over roof for me.  I'm not really sure how the station is going to come together yet, but I suppose if I plod away at it in between things I'll figure it out.

 

[Hroth]

9 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I'm with Annie. It's all b0ll0cks and I don't really care about copyright law in the sort of context we're dealing with; it's opportunistic @rses asserting rights over something someone else did. I have no patience with it.

 

My view is, by all means, have a go. I enjoy my job, and ....

 

 

So, come on if you think you're hard enough.

 

Don't mess with Mr Slant...

 

[Annie]

I had a fairly horrible day with falling asleep everywhere, but working on my Brunel Station project cheered me up a bit.  I've just noticed that the over roofs in the ancient Slough station photo are 16 supporting posts/pillars long and my test over roof is 20 posts long so I guess it might need to be shortened back a bit.

My project station is fairly simple in its layout, but after having a look a couple of track layouts for larger Brunel stations as depicted in old OS maps I can see why they got into a tangle once traffic increased.  Truth be told I think the OS map surveyors got themselves into a bit of a tangle as well with trying to illustrate the stations on their maps, but they do more or less show the basic layouts.

 

Another cheer up was Rob Dee completing a GER 6 wheel 1st coach.  He's presently working on a 6 wheel clerestory 3rd coach.

I've been able to hunt down a copy of Model Railway Constructor for June 1987 (yes the very last issue) as it has K&ESR coach drawings which include two GER 4 wheel coaches.  Hopefully if I can keep feeding Rob Dee GER coach drawings he will be able to keep on with turning them into digital coach models for Trainz.

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[Edwardian]

30 minutes ago, Annie said:

I had a fairly horrible day with falling asleep everywhere, but working on my Brunel Station project cheered me up a bit.  I've just noticed that the over roofs in the ancient Slough station photo are 16 supporting posts/pillars long and my test over roof is 20 posts long so I guess it might need to be shortened back a bit.

My project station is fairly simple in its layout, but after having a look a couple of track layouts for larger Brunel stations as depicted in old OS maps I can see why they got into a tangle once traffic increased.  Truth be told I think the OS map surveyors got themselves into a bit of a tangle as well with trying to illustrate the stations on their maps, but they do more or less show the basic layouts.

 

Another cheer up was Rob Dee completing a GER 6 wheel 1st coach.  He's presently working on a 6 wheel clerestory 3rd coach.

I've been able to hunt down a copy of Model Railway Constructor for June 1987 (yes the very last issue) as it has K&ESR coach drawings which include two GER 4 wheel coaches.  Hopefully if I can keep feeding Rob Dee GER coach drawings he will be able to keep on with turning them into digital coach models for Trainz.

 

 

I have those GER/K&SR drawings, courtesy, IIRC, of Any G.  You should have said you were after them!