Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[rocor]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Your second sentence certainly applies to some of the broad gauge engines. Three of the Rover class 4-2-2s were only two or three years old, IIRC? 

 

But of course there were also the convertibles, both locomotives and carriages.

 

Yes, and of course this would include the most elegant standard gauge single to grace any railway track in the UK. Though, I suspect, that there maybe a sleight reluctance on your part to agree with this statement.

 

[Hroth]

53 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

Yes, and of course this would include the most elegant standard gauge single to grace any railway track in the UK. Though, I suspect, that there maybe a sleight reluctance on your part to agree with this statement.

 

And the GWR got those after 3021 Wigmore Castle, built as a 2-2-2, broke its leading axle and derailed in Box Tunnel in 1893 and rebuilt as the famous 4-2-2s!   GWR 3031 Class

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Hroth

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, rocor said:

Yes, and of course this would include the most elegant standard gauge single to grace any railway track in the UK. Though, I suspect, that there maybe a sleight reluctance on your part to agree with this statement.

 

They certainly were distinctive and did have their aesthetic points. Whilst the most elegant were also the fastest - members of both Johnson's 115 class and T.W. Worsdell's J Class being recorded at maxima of 90 mph - I do think the palm for performance has to go to Duke of Connaught with the Ocean Mails on 9 May 1904, covering the seventy miles from Shrivenham to Westbourne Park at an average speed of 80 mph. To my mind that is a performance that eclipsed any downhill spot maximum speed attained earlier in the same run, before the change of engines at Pylle Hill.

 

I have to link to this again, with apologies to readers outside the UK:

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-brilliant-biograph-2020-online

 

Fast forward to 33:45.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Compound2632

[Hroth]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

They certainly were distinctive and did have their aesthetic points. Whilst the most elegant were also the fastest - members of both Johnson's 115 class and T.W. Worsdell's J Class being recorded at maxima of 90 mph - I do think the palm for performance has to go to Duke of Connaught with the ocean mails on 9 May 1904, covering the seventy miles from Shrivenham to Westbourne Park at an average speed of 80 mph. To my mind that is a performance that eclipsed any downhill spot maximum speed attained earlier in the same run, before the change of engines at Pylle Hill.

 

The Duke of Connaught made a splendid effort!

 

But lets not go into that famous first "ton", recorded on a revenue-earning service, rather than a special effort towing a dynanometer carriage* made 20 odd years later...  😀

 

* And wasn't that on a favoured downhill racing stretch too?

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Hroth
Extra!!!

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Hroth said:

But lets not go into that famous first "ton", recorded on a revenue-earning service, rather than a special effort towing a dynanometer carriage made 20 odd years later...  😀

 

Having read both Charles Rous Marten's original article and several analyses of it, I have more confidence in the accuracy of his average speed measurement over seventy miles than over one quarter of a mile!

[Hroth]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Having read both Charles Rous Marten's original article and several analyses of it, I have more confidence in the accuracy of his average speed measurement over seventy miles than over one quarter of a mile!

 

All I can say is that until the NRM got their hands on "Flying Scotsman", they used to trumpet "City of Truro" as the first British 100mph loco. At this point in time, its best to say "maybe" and pass on.

 

[rocor]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

 

All I can say is that until the NRM got their hands on "Flying Scotsman", they used to trumpet "City of Truro" as the first British 100mph loco. At this point in time, its best to say "maybe" and pass on.

 

 

Maybe one day in the future, a very detailed model will be constructed (inside a computer), that will definitively answer the question if that 100mph run was possible (not if it was achieved, but if it was possible).

[Adam88]

22 hours ago, Annie said:

I'm other news I am now much cheered up in that the horrible dental infection I was suffering from has been defeated.  A victory for modern antibiotic science and one that I'm very glad of.

 

Very pleased to read this and I hope things continue to improve for you.  We are fortunate that while we can admire the elegant railway products of our forefathers we don't have to endure their dentistry.

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Adam88 said:

  We are fortunate that while we can admire the elegant railway products of our forefathers we don't have to endure their dentistry.

Nor do we have to practice it!

 

Jim (retired GDP)

[Jake The Rat]

16 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

All I can say is that until the NRM got their hands on "Flying Scotsman", they used to trumpet "City of Truro" as the first British 100mph loco. At this point in time, its best to say "maybe" and pass on.

 

14 hours ago, rocor said:

 

Maybe one day in the future, a very detailed model will be constructed (inside a computer), that will definitively answer the question if that 100mph run was possible (not if it was achieved, but if it was possible).

Interesting. A.f.a.I.k. it is unclear if City of Truro actually made it on that occasion, but not if it was capable of 100 mph. Maybe I'm wrong? 🤔

 

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I have to link to this again, with apologies to readers outside the UK:

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-brilliant-biograph-2020-online

No problem. Proxies are available even in a digital 3rd world country like Schland (as we Germans like to call it). 😉

[Annie]

19 hours ago, rocor said:

 

Yes, and of course this would include the most elegant standard gauge single to grace any railway track in the UK. Though, I suspect, that there maybe a sleight reluctance on your part to agree with this statement.

 

I'm stealing this for a future cheer up picture.  😀

[Hroth]

10 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Nor do we have to practice it!

 

Jim (retired GDP)

 

The first dentist I remember going to worked from a dull dark house with stuffed animal heads around the walls of the waiting room. He also used a cord-driven drill on articulated arms, which ran very slowly and ground into the affected tooth with lots of vibration and no local anaesthetic.

 

I think it was meant to be character forming!

 

I've never liked going to the dentists ever since...

 

[Caley Jim]

8 hours ago, Hroth said:

He also used a cord-driven drill on articulated arms, which ran very slowly and ground into the affected tooth with lots of vibration and no local anaesthetic. 

I was trained with these! We could never get our hands on an air rotor because the house surgeons and consultants were using them. We did administer local, however! 

 

Jim 

[Annie]

9 hours ago, Hroth said:

He also used a cord-driven drill on articulated arms, which ran very slowly and ground into the affected tooth with lots of vibration and no local anaesthetic.

I remember those.  Back in the day every primary school had its own dental clinic (the murder house) with its resident dental nurse and I had my own fair share of being tormented by those dreadful things.  Character building isn't quite how I would describe it.

[Annie]

It woz a wizdumb toof so I'z not so intelijunt now.

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Annie said:

It woz a wizdumb toof so I'z not so intelijunt now.

 

I know how you feel - I had one of those out last Saturday. I've not been aware of any decline in intelligence, which demonstrates that any wisdom I may lay claim to is in fact all front and not at all deep-rooted.

 

On 19/06/2022 at 06:44, Jake The Rat said:

Interesting. A.f.a.I.k. it is unclear if City of Truro actually made it on that occasion, but not if it was capable of 100 mph. Maybe I'm wrong? 🤔

 

The really dubious point is Rous Marten's 102.3 mph based on a time of 8.8 seconds between successive quarter-mile posts, using a stopwatch that could measure to 0.2 seconds. Previous quarter-miles had been covered in successively shorter times but the leap from 9.2 seconds (97.8 mph) to 8.8 seconds does not lie on a smooth curve (within the uncertainty bars if one allows +/- 0.1 second which is +/- 1.2 mph at this speed); a time of 9.0 seconds (100.0 mph) would be much more natural. So 100 mph is probable, and principally due to the design of the piston valves with the long lap preferred by Churchward, giving freer circulation of the steam at high speeds - avoiding the chocking effect with short lap valves. 

 

However, one mustn't be critical of Charles Rous Marten on this thread. He was pushing the stopwatch technology of the day to the limit and without his journalism we would know rather less about express passenger locomotive performance in the decade around the turn of the century. One just wishes he had written up the 96 mph he hints at with an Atbara and a Johnson Belpaire! 

[Compound2632]

On 19/06/2022 at 06:44, Jake The Rat said:

No problem. Proxies are available even in a digital 3rd world country like Schland (as we Germans like to call it). 😉

 

For those without a workaround, here's a screen-grab from the film - Maidenhead in 1898:

 

 

[Annie]

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I know how you feel - I had one of those out last Saturday. I've not been aware of any decline in intelligence, which demonstrates that any wisdom I may lay claim to is in fact all front and not at all deep-rooted.

The dentist did a really great job and I didn't feel a thing.  It was an awkward one to get at and injecting the necessary pain relief into the right spot wasn't all that easy either.  Once I was home and I was sure the bleeding had stopped I crashed out asleep for ages.

I really don't like having to leave the house, but it was a nice fine chilly Winter's day outside which more than made up for it.

 

After doing his examination and x-rays the dentist told me that the tooth was well and truly dead which is why the infection had been so bad.  Sooooo I guess if it was dead it hadn't been doing much to advance my intelligence for a good while anyway.

[Annie]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

However, one mustn't be critical of Charles Rous Marten on this thread. He was pushing the stopwatch technology of the day to the limit and without his journalism we would know rather less about express passenger locomotive performance in the decade around the turn of the century. One just wishes he had written up the 96 mph he hints at with an Atbara and a Johnson Belpaire! 

Perhaps the exact truth will never be known, but I have to say I much prefer the tale of 'City of Truro', Charles Rous Marten and his stopwatches to the one about the lumbering great apple green Pacific.

 

And in other news I still find myself fascinated by the Vinegar Works Branch at Worcester.  I very much doubt that I would want to build an exact model of the branch, but using it as a source of seed ideas to build a street running industrial branchline is very much on the cards.

 

[Hroth]

14 hours ago, Annie said:

Perhaps the exact truth will never be known, but I have to say I much prefer the tale of 'City of Truro', Charles Rous Marten and his stopwatches to the one about the lumbering great apple green Pacific.

 

And in other news I still find myself fascinated by the Vinegar Works Branch at Worcester.  I very much doubt that I would want to build an exact model of the branch, but using it as a source of seed ideas to build a street running industrial branchline is very much on the cards.

 

 

I'm with you on CoT vs the Apple Green Pothunter.....    :-)

 

As for the Vinegar Works Branch, a couple* of decades ago I passed under there on the Worcester and Birmingham canal on the way from Gas Street Basin Birmingham to Diglis Basin and thence the River Severn. If I'd known about it at the time, I'd have pulled in and had a look to see if there was anything left!

 

* I was just thinking, it was more like three or four decades ago...

 

ARGHHHHHH!!!!!!

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Hroth
Times wing'ed chariot....

[Annie]

3 hours ago, Hroth said:

As for the Vinegar Works Branch, a couple of decades ago I passed under there on the Worcester and Birmingham canal on the way from Gas Street Basin Birmingham to Diglis Basin and thence the River Severn. If I'd known about it at the time, I'd have pulled in and had a look to see if there was anything left!

There are some images and not very good sketch maps of the area about on the internet, but mostly from the era of post war dereliction with dismals lurking about, but no one in their right mind would be interested in any of that.  The piece taken from OS map I posted above is dated 1904 so is therefore so much more interesting to an intelligent modeller.

I would be wanting to use a certain amount of selective compression on the map, but would definitely be wanting to keep the canal as well as the municipal tramway on the higher level street behind the Vinegar Works.  Thanks to Mason Taylor from the creator group I belong to there's a wonderful multipart brick factory and warehouse kit of parts available which would be perfect for representing much of the industrial areas.

If I do go so far as moving along the map to the right to include a station it would be more of a C.J.F 'Minories' than the magnificence of Worcester station in 1904.  I don't know yet if I would want to use the Trainz Model Railway format or build it as a railway in the landscape.  Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages with the TMR format perhaps being the better choice as it has boundaries and limits due to having baseboard edges instead of a landscape that has to go on and on for miles and miles. 

 

Anyway something for me to think about.  I'm feeling sleepy and a bit second hand this morning after all the excitements of yesterday, but at least the pain in my lower jaw is fading away very nicely.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[Compound2632]

I've linked to this photo of the interior of the Great Hall of the Vinegar Works itself before, with thanks to @Mikkel for bringing it to my attention (we were mostly interested in the wagon, of course):

 

 

Full details here. More period views if you browse around that site.

[Hroth]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I've linked to this photo of the interior of the Great Hall of the Vinegar Works itself before, with thanks to @Mikkel for bringing it to my attention (we were mostly interested in the wagon, of course):

 

 

Full details here. More period views if you browse around that site.

Amazing!

 

I wonder how many people you could pickle in one of those vats?

 

(Its a wagon, barrels can be put in it...) Nice loading dock!

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Hroth said:

(Its a wagon, barrels can be put in it...) Nice loading dock!

 

Note the piece of sacking or whatever on which the wagon door rests.

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I've linked to this photo of the interior of the Great Hall of the Vinegar Works itself before, with thanks to @Mikkel for bringing it to my attention (we were mostly interested in the wagon, of course):

Oooooo nice two plank.  The G.W.R initials are at the correct end as well.

Thanks for posting this picture again Stephen.

 

I managed to do nuffing this afternoon except dream that I was awake.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Annie
More words needed.