Comet Stanier Coaches

[farren]

I've bought some very nice Comet kits to build to add to my Hornby Ex-LMS coaches so far I have the open 3rd, a CK and a 12 wheeler Restaurant. And will be getting a few more in a few weeks before I start the build.

 

The question is i have 5 unused set of Bachmann LMS coach bogies safely set aside are these correct for the comet kits? Or are they better for the Non-Corridor coaches? Obviously no good for the 12 wheeler. And should a Kitchen Cardiff go with the Restaurant car?

[brossard]

Farren, LMS 9' WB bogies tended to be standard so if you have Bachmanns they will be correct.  They may even have better detail than the whitemetal bogies that come with the kit.  I recall that the WM tiebar is pretty useless and I replaced it with a strip of brass.  I suppose you should compare with pictures and drawings to see which you like more.  ISTR that Comet bogies have etched brass frames and that the sides are glued or soldered on.  There may be provision for compensation so if that is what you want, you can glue Bachmann bogie sides to the brass frames.

 

After the war, LMS bogies had a redesign where the method of construction was welded instead of rivetted.  The overall appearance didn't change but there were no rivets in view (obviously).  Welded bogies were used on the porthole stock.

 

I can't speak to Restaurant stock.

 

John

[Barry O]

If its a 12 wheel car you don't need a kitchen car as well. It is in the 12 wheeler. You may need an open first to go with it for additional dining seats.

 

The Bachmann (old style) bogies are fine (now my preferred option for all of my LMS coach builds). If you have Comet Bogies they are OK but as said above the tiebars are awful.

 

These are Period III coaches. If you buy any more you need some Third class coaches as well as the odd First. Are you modelling a specific train or just a "typical" train. Details of train formations in the LMS Coaches book by Jenkinson and Essery

 

baz

[Steamport Southport]

Have you looked at the instructions as they have typical formations in them to show you what goes with what. They are also on the Comet Models website as PDFs so you can have a good look at what you may need.

 

 

As an example your Restaurant Car is a RC which is a Restaurant Composite so it doesn't need anything else, but often had a First Open and a Third Open either side to provide extra seating capacity.

 

From Comet's website.

 

Restaurant composite coaches were used in the shorter expresses or through portions of longer formations where the limited number of meals required did not warrant the use of a full kitchen and open diners. The vehicles were ‘neutral’, with the class and seating being adjusted by staff to accommodate the demand. These cars were upgraded by comparison to the earlier D1811 type, being fitted with pressure heating and ventilation.

 

Sample formations

Carlisle Perth 1938                                   BCK/RC/TO/BTK/BG/BG/POS

Glasgow Oban 1938                                  BCK/TK/BTK/TO/TO/RC/FO/BTK

Granite City 1949                                      TK/TK/BTK/TK/CK/CK/RC/TO/CK/BTK/BG

Granite City 1958                                      BSK/SK/FK/RC/SO/SK/SK/BSK/BG

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

I've just noticed you've already got the TO and a CK. Doh!

 

So you will need a couple of BTKs and possibly a couple of TKs and you've got a good representation.

 

 

As well as the LMS Coaches book it might be worth picking up a copy of these as well.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passenger-Train-Formations-1923-1983-LMS-LM/dp/0711016062

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Historic-Carriage-Drawings-Two-Constituents/dp/1899816062/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521728587&sr=1-1&keywords=lms+drawings

 

 

 

Jason

[brossard]

You can't have too many books.  The carriage drawing book is very useful indeed.  I haven't got the first one.  I suppose the companion book has to be:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-LMS-Coaches-1923/dp/B002DIKBDS

 

John

[Steamport Southport]

You can't have too many books.  The carriage drawing book is very useful indeed.  I haven't got the first one.  I suppose the companion book has to be:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-LMS-Coaches-1923/dp/B002DIKBDS

 

John

 

Yes. That's the one Barry O mentions.

 

There was also a much expanded and updated version that went to three volumes. Unfortunately out of print and you hardly ever see them for reasonable prices on the second hand market.

 

 

Jason

[brossard]

Oh yes, quite. 

 

John

[peterfgf]

I've seen volume three around but volumes one and two are very rare indeed - in fact I've never seen them.

Peterfgf

Yes. That's the one Barry O mentions.

 

There was also a much expanded and updated version that went to three volumes. Unfortunately out of print and you hardly ever see them for reasonable prices on the second hand market.

 

 

Jason

[farren]

Oh thank you all for your help very much appreciated. And I will definitely be buying some more books. And Coaches at least another couple CK's probably one of each of the designs. The plan is two be able to make two rakes with the ability to run a express and London to Leicester local. I was going through the under the stairs cupboard looking for the bogies which must be are at my dad's! But on the plus side I found this.

Edited March 22, 2018 by farren

[Steamport Southport]

Yes. That's virtually the same book. I think the newer one had a few extra bits and was updated, but most of the necessary information is in there.

 

 

 

Jason

[farren]

I have to admit I had forgotten about it. Bought some years ago before moving house and as been setting in a box since then. Got something to read now and cost nothing!

Edited March 22, 2018 by farren

[farren]

Ok so after a couple of false starts with these coaches. They are two finished apart from lining. The 12 wheeler is still under construction.... ok one bogie is built. 

[farren]

Here’s a pic of the LMS Diagram 1938 differently heading towards the finish line. Just wondering how the pipes are attached to the roof. I’ve ordered some boiler hand rail knobs. But wondered how others have done it. As I’ve ordered some more coaches to build the rake up. 

[Barry O]

They appear to be on tiny clamps on the roof. Longer than a loop of wire.. but not enough to show. Handrail knobs are too big.. there shouldn't be a huge gap under the pipes. I us a little piece of plasticard to go under the pipes when I remember to do it. 

Baz

[farren]

Thank you Barry I’ll have a go at that,  

[Iain.d]

Hi farren,

 

This is how I have done mine on a Comet D1938.  I use the whitemetal water filler pieces that come on the vent sprues and in them, drill two .5mm holes at about a 45 degree angle. This filler is push fit into a hole drilled on the centre line of the roof.  I then bend a length of .45mm wire to shape (I do the curved bit on the coach end first - doing the two held together so the bend is the same) and cut to fit the required length from the end of the roof to the filler. To make the clamps/supports I bend thin brass (in this instance Bill Bedford brake safety loops) into a ‘U’ shape, place over my wire and crimp with pliers – a bit like a split pin.  I do the ones on the coach end first and carefully solder the clamp/support in place to the wire.  There may be a little tweaking of the wire to make them run parallel, clear steps and so on.

 

 

With the pipe temporarily fitted to the roof, I then draw two lines on each side of each pipe (4 parallelish lines) I then remove the pipes and drill a .7mm between each pair of lines. I then crimp another ‘U’ loop around the pipe that will run on the roof. I then refit the filler pipes, inserting the new clamp/support into the hole I drilled in the roof. Then I solder this clamp. I can then remove the filler pipe, clean it and refit it knowing the clamps/supports line up with the holes. After painting the roof I refit the pipe and paint it; I don’t glue the pipe, the pipe stays in place with friction and a bit of paint.

 

 

Apologies for the very coarse, grubby photos. I have yet to fix (using tape) the roof ribs.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[farren]

Thank you Iain I’ll see if I can replicate mine to such a high degree, though I’ll settle for not ruining the model. 
 

 

[farren]

Well I have managed to just about finished the restaurant car the insides seem to be a little high so needs trimming down a little a nd transfers. But not to bad I think. And have started a CK p 1. I know it’s not Stanier but I don’t want to have a second topic on the go. 

[farren]

hi Iain D, just wondering how you made the Alarm gear? I've ordered 3 of the detailing kits from comet/ Wizards models hopefully that will go some way to doing a better job on the next coach. which looks interesting a Diagram 1850 BCK. and once I get the hang I'll revisit the others coaches.

 

yes the windows need a bit of a clean from sticking them in with with glaze glue so once dried should will wash of 

[Iain.d]

Hi farren,

 

My alarm gear is pretty simple. I flatten the head of a brass pin in a pair of pliers and then file the flattened head to the rough shape, side on, of the alarm gear. Using a scriber I then push a small indent into the flat, as in the middle as I can, by eye. Then drill, using the indent as a marker, with a .5mm drill through the flattened head. I sometimes find at this point the flattened pinhead will fail, so I normally squash 3 or 4 in a session. The shank of the pin is .65mm so I drill a .7mm hole in the coach end and pass the pin through it, repeat for other side. I then bend to shape a piece of .5mm soft brass wire to go from one side to the other and over the corridor connector.  In all the ones I’ve done I have never managed to get them exact, but not many people can see both sides at the same time.  Note some LMS carriages had an inverted ‘V’ shaped connector from one side to the other as opposed to a stepped one.

 

I then thread the bent wire through one drilled hole and then back through the other. I then solder the bent wire in place and trim the ends. If I’m doing a brass coach I solder the pins in too and trim off the shank close to the coach end, on the inside of the coach. If I’m doing a plastic bodied coach, its in and out quickly with the soldering iron and I make the alarm gear removable and fix in place after painting, and then trim the shank.

 

The down part of the alarm gear is just a bent bit of wire, shaped and cut to fit and soldered where it meets the cross piece.

 

I use a .75mm piece of plastic card as a spacer between the coach end and the bent wire and the down piece when soldering the pieces together.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Edited January 1, 2021 by Iain.d
Add something

[farren]

Thanks Iain. Brass pins now on the shopping list and will try to follow your method. I’m thinking of striping a couple of my other coaches to improve the ends and the paint finish is rubbish. Here’s how I attempted to do the ends myself, admittedly not quite up to your work but not two bad from normal distance 

[Iain.d]

4 hours ago, farren said:

Thanks Iain. Brass pins now on the shopping list and will try to follow your method. I’m thinking of striping a couple of my other coaches to improve the ends and the paint finish is rubbish. Here’s how I attempted to do the ends myself, admittedly not quite up to your work but not two bad from normal distance 

Hi farren,

 

That’s looking pretty good.

 

I have done a D1850 BCK, although this one is a former Airfix corridor composite that has been cut about and had Comet sides added. This is the only LMS carriage I have done with the really odd shaped filler pipes like yours, I recall they were a pain to shape and I would have wasted a bit of wire getting it as right as I could.

 

 

With yours, things that could be done include filing down, to flatten, the top of the round wire you have used as the clamps to hold the filler pipe in place, where it passes over the top of the pipe. Also if you could drill smaller holes in the roof, not easy in aluminium, that would make the fit a little better. I don’t drill any holes until the bends of the wire for pipes is as good as I can make it. Rarely do I get all the bends and curves right first time. Another option for the clamps (I use Bill Bedford Safety loops because they’re easy and soft brass) is copper staples crimped over the filler pipe wire.

 

For roof ribs I just use PVC type tape – this is the last job done after washing the roof (to remove finger grease and the like) and priming the roof. I have a board (made from a cheap A4 picture frame with a piece of A4 graph paper between the backboard and the glass, I binned the frame, but secured these 3 pieces (backboard/graph paper/glass) with tape). So I have a flat work surface that I can line things up on.  I then cut a length of tape and stick it onto the clean glass. Leave it a day or two to shrink back to its original size. Then with a scalpel and steel ruler cut it into long thin strips (.5mm to .75mm wide) by eye. Discard the strip from each side of the tape – this will have fluff and stuff stuck to the adhesive that only becomes visible after you’ve painted it…. Then I cut each strip into lengths of about 40mm (while it’s still on the glass). I then lay the roof onto the glass, lining up the cantrail to one of the lines on the graph paper (when viewed from above) so its square. I fix the roof in place to the glass with tape. Then using the Comet plan as I guide, I take each 40mm strip of PVC tape and stick it across the roof in roughly the right place, lining each side up with the relevant line on the graph paper, to make sure it is square to the cantrail. Use a cotton bud to press into place. Once done leave for an hour or so (to let the PVC tape shrink back) and then trim off all the tape tails, with a scalpel, right on the cantrail. Re-press in place with the cotton bud. Paint as soon as you can after to protect the tape.

 

For those little handles on the end of the roof I drill .5mm hole (gently and cleaning out the swarf regularly as it’ll clog and snap the bit in the blink of an eye…) and then on the underside drill with a 1.5mm or 2mm bit, partway in, to create an indent/recess. Then when you bend up the handrail wire and pass it through the holes, you apply the glue into the indent/recess and then when its dry trim off the ends and its fixed neatly on the top and flush on the bottom.

 

Also for the pins for the alarm gear, buy solid brass ones, not brass coated. The brass coated ones are hard steel underneath and will shatter when you squash them in pliers and may fly across the room…ask me how I know!  I ended up taking a magnet to the shop and checking the various packets before I purchased! I recall that in my local shop, there was a packet of far eastern manufactured pins, proclaiming to be 100% brass, that were responsive to the magnet!

 

Sorry for the long winded explanation and apologies if I’m teaching you to suck eggs.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Edited January 2, 2021 by Iain.d
Typo

[farren]

No need to be sorry all taken as it’s meant,  yes filing down the wire would make a difference and will give it a go latter. Smaller drill are on the way but wanted to see if I could get it to work.
 

I remembered the bill Bradford safety loops which... you guessed it need ordering and will for the next build a Stanier BTK. As the others have already been drilled I’ll stick with what I’ve done and fill the holes with filler. As I’ve already stripped the P1 CK to fit the alarm gear (might as well) and door hinges well I’m at it. ( detailing coaches seems to be catching) 
 

Before Christmas I order some detailing etches along with some roof ribbing type and other bits . I will try your lining method for the roofs on the next build but already built coaches the roofs are soldered onto the body so would mean undoing that. No I haven’t soldered aluminium to brass though I’ve read it can be done. Just soldered the end grab rails to the ends well the epoxy drys. 

[farren]

That’s it can’t have one coach better then the rest so the rest are being fitted with alarm gear and door handles etc. And the paint finish just wasn’t that good so had to go.