Brixton Hill tram depot and its Trams

[coline33]

Thanks, Dave.   Easier to build EMUs!!!   I have not seen a 2-WIM from you yet let alone a 2-SL!!!   My 2-WIM is still in pieces in a large envelope awaiting further attention.   

 

Yes, I do have Ken's book and his correspondence with me.   He had wanted to add the additional material I had discovered after the second edition of "Tramways of Croydon" was published and then there was no prospect of a third edition ever being produced - Robert Harley did cover some in his later publication.   Ken had TSL&C published by Lewisham Library as he lived at Lee.   Alas it did not sell as quickly as hoped and thus Lewisham bowed out.   It has a wonderful collection of memories by tramway men and passengers.   When Mr. Thomas read the draft of "London Transport at War" in 1946 he was livid and wrote a foolscap memo to LPT Board wanting it changed or not published as it did not cover anywhere near the some depth of the T&T effort compared with the bus and underground departments.   Ken's book mentions some of the heroic acts including taking passengers at high speed passed their stop just before a V1 landed there.   Terry Cooper's book on Stan Collins also illustrates Thomas's rage over T&T being so deliberately ignored.   Theodore Eastway Thomas is someone who absolutely deserved his knighthood at the end of WW2.

 

Roy introduced Adrian to this thread so I attach views of his 1960's work when he showed Frank Vescoe how to make "Experimental Car No.2" from his BEC-Kits No.14.   Whenever I get that finished it will be 2167 which finished its working life when a door pillar cracked beyond economic repair in 1949 and was stored at Brixton Hill prior to its move to Purley where by the end of that year it was scrapped.   By the way the body stands on another piece of experimental track using Street Level paving with the buildings behind being more appropriate for RNR.   Enjoy, Colin.

[coline33]

Want to save money?   Ideal for building new or retrucking second-hand BEC-Kits (white metal) and Tower E/1 kits (plastic).   The 'plug-in' means one mech can carry different bodies irrespective of weight.   I attach a view of what I do.   Those two in the foreground are for E/1s, one still to have grey trucksides for LPTB and the other black ones for LTE.   The side cut-outs are to accommodate the body mounted plough carriers.   The lower deck above is an E class one and is plugged-in on a slightly shortened version to suit that class - all only ever had grey trucks in LPTB days.   If more weight is required for traction purposes then add the top halves of passengers on top of the mech.   If so, then do not forget passengers for the top deck!   Hope this is inspirational for you to build more bodies, Colin.

[wainwright1]

Hi Tony and Dave.

 

I do not have the Ken Harvie book but do have the Lewisham one.

 

As I do not access to my trams books at the moment, can you tell me what were the differences between the standard Feltham and experimental car No. 2 ?

 

I see the Street Level printed cobbles as produced by Charlie Connor. I know Charlie and his dad Jim, the former publisher and editor of The London Railway Record.

 

Charlie is I believe now a full time Baptist minister looking after three chapels up in Bedfordshire. There were rumours about him organising some exhibitions up there, but I have no heard anything definite yet. Might see Jim or even Charlie at Alexandra Palace next week.

 

All the best

 

Ray

[wainwright1]

7 minutes ago, coline33 said:

Want to save money?   Ideal for building new or retrucking second-hand BEC-Kits (white metal) and Tower E/1 kits (plastic).   The 'plug-in' means one mech can carry different bodies irrespective of weight.   I attach a view of what I do.   Those two in the foreground are for E/1s, one still to have grey trucksides for LPTB and the other black ones for LTE.   The side cut-outs are to accommodate the body mounted plough carriers.   The lower deck above is an E class one and is plugged-in on a slightly shortened version to suit that class - all only ever had grey trucks in LPTB days.   If more weight is required for traction purposes then add the top halves of passengers on top of the mech.   If so, then do not forget passengers for the top deck!   Hope this is inspirational for you to build more bodies, Colin.

 

Tony.

 

Our posts passed like ships in the night.

These look very good.

Very interested in this as I would particularly would like to make up a couple of E1 cars using the Tower models kits.

Is the frame made from plasticard. If so what thickness ?

Are the bogies very old ones or fairly recent ones ? I think that this type might still be available from one of the specialist manufacturers I was looking at a few weeks ago.

How are the bogies mounted onto the board. Are there press studs, the old fashioned method. Or some other way ?

 

Look forward to hearing from you.

 

All the best

 

Ray

 

P.S. Went to the East Grinstead show yesterday and bought Hatton's full Wainwright liveried P class No. 27 from the Bluebell Railway stand for my Hawkhurst layout. An absolute beauty.

[coline33]

Ray, I attach a couple of others views to help.   Yes, it is all plasticard using 40 thou for both top pieces and 60 thou for the ends. You will see that I 'laminated' the main frame top to give a total of 80 thou for added strength.   The top piece being 60 thou longer at each end to the lower piece to give the end pieces a stronger 'seating'.   All cut outs were made before assembly.   Remember that when doing the cut outs for the body mounted plough carrier you have to make it longer as the carrier is mounted off-centre for all 'types' of LPTB ex-municipal Es and E/1s with the exception of 2054-2061.   Yes, I use the very well tested and tried press-stud connection which has worked perfectly at exhibitions when a motor problem has occurred.   In both top pieces a hole is made to accommodate each stud part and then capped with the rectangular piece seen with the small hole for the stud top with its small hole to let air in.   Now in adding the feet to the end pieces you must ensure the best possible gluing to attempt to get the plastics to 'melt' into each other and leave to cure - usually overnight for me.   The length of the foot is dictated by the space under the saloon bulkheads before the life-tray assembly.   All my 'feet' are rectangular but if you feel you need wider 'feet' that part will have to be shaped to fit between the tray's stays.   This applies to both BEC-Kits No.12 and the Tower E/1s remembering that the mech for an E class car will be shorter in length as the saloon is shorter than for an E/1 and you may as I have found that a narrower plough carrier has to be fashioned!!!   You can tell a car from the last third BEC E/1 kit (No.12) from the second BEC E/1 kit ones by the former having separate and detailed vestibuled platform pieces.   Those from the first BEC E/1 kit are too wide, had end pivoted bogies and in fact were ex-Walthamstow 2054-2061!!!    Coming to the Tower E/1 kits remember they are based on 2054-2061 and the transfer sheet gives you the number 2054 which is perfect as this car retained both ends unaltered after WW2.   So the enclosed kit version is perfect for 2054 but to produce any other type of E/1 I would recommend using the open fronted kit and scratch-building the LPTB standard wooden windscreens to suit a high or low dash as per photos of the selected car.   After WW2 you will find that some had high dashes at one end and low at the other - so beware and use all round photos.   Fortunately with the E/1 you can work out which side is which by the off-centre plough carrier which in turn dictates which bogie truck-side is complete and which has to have the inner end cut off straight (where the plough carrier used to be bolted on to the truck-side).

 

In the photos of E 420, both decks are from the Tower open fronted kit.   The lower deck has had the corner pillars narrowed.   The upper deck has had major surgery!   It is not an original E or E/1 one.   It has been turned into a replacement Alpax top deck as built for the E/3 and HR/2 classes and LPTB finally put that body on the frame of E/1 1597 and reclassified it as an E/1.   1597's lower deck was the oldest bit of a London tram in service after WW2!!!   That now brings me on to the replacement bodies for the LCC's F and G class subway single deckers.   Brand new double deck bodies were made and used the electrical and running gear from the single decks.   In 1929, they emerged as third series E/1s completely different on both decks to the first and second series E/1s.   So avoid cars 552-601 unless you love to rebuild kits completely!!!   The same applies to the sole HR/1 1852.

 

If I produced templates, would it help?   Colin.

 

I 

[coline33]

Following on from above, I still have two views of models made in the 1960s from the first BEC E/1 kit.   2055 was my first kit-built London car (previous ones had been scratch-built in balsa wood) and the parts have not been altered in any way.   The layout is my original Purley tram terminus board.   1038 was built by Adrian and altered to be a Rehab version (E/1r) to show Frank Vescoe how easy it was to file white metal to the correct shape!   The buildings are Builtezzi.   You can just see the top of the Triang motor.   Enjoy, Colin.

[dasatcopthorne]

On 19/03/2019 at 10:34, coline33 said:

Following on from above, I still have two views of models made in the 1960s from the first BEC E/1 kit.   2055 was my first kit-built London car (previous ones had been scratch-built in balsa wood) and the parts have not been altered in any way.   The layout is my original Purley tram terminus board.   1038 was built by Adrian and altered to be a Rehab version (E/1r) to show Frank Vescoe how easy it was to file white metal to the correct shape!   The buildings are Builtezzi.   You can just see the top of the Triang motor.   Enjoy, Colin.

 

Lower photo, at least, taken on a piece of my old layout. Not my tram though.

 

Dave

[dasatcopthorne]

See this post about my old layout.

 

Dave.

[coline33]

Thanks, Dave, now I know upon whose layout I photoed 1038!   Likewise with the photo of Feltham 2131 which I constructed from the first production from the then new moulds for BEC No.14 for which I wrote the instruction sheet.   2131 is still active and in my reserve fleet.   Whereas my OOC Felthams have both doors closed,  2131 does has both doors open!  Also a view of another Adrian built car W/1 349 on service 42 at "West Croydon" on a Sunday.   How do I know it was a Sunday?   When WC was exhibited on a Friday or Saturday, a No.130B bus would be turning from North End into Tamworth Road (this is a bus service now covered by tram) and did not have a Sunday service.   349 was the subject of the box cover to I think BEC/ABS No.6.   Unfortunately its trolley mast had come completely and could not be re-affixed during the exhibition.   See the driver and passengers in that No.133 bus behind, also the passengers awaiting to travel to Sutton in John Clarke's Type J car!   By the way, ABS kits are available through the website of KW Trams.   Colin

[wainwright1]

Hi All.

Just catching up.

Went to the Ally Pally exhibition last weekend and we took RT1702 to the RT80 event at Barking yesterday.

Ally Pally was good, though very little of tram interest and I did not spend very much money either.

(In between I have had a dose of the lurgi that's going round with a sore throat for four days. It has now gone onto my chest a bit, but I think that it is fading off).

Yesterday was very nice with good sunny weather most of the time and a mass of RTs and other buses. We ran in service and took part in the cavalcade of RTs at the end of the afternoon over the 62 route. Around 40 in total starting with RT1, including one RTL and a RM at the end.

 

Picked up some press studs from Sainbury's on Friday and put them in my stock box. They come in a pack of other clips which might also come in useful.

 

Question for Colin:

Do you know what happened to the tram photos that Lens of Sutton used to do ?

The railway pictures ended up with the Lens of Sutton Association and are available, but the tram ones seem to have vanished without trace.

The other range which was very useful was Pamlin Prints which had good selection of tram shots, but I think that after Ken Carr died they just got discontinued as well.

 

Question for Tony:

How is the layout getting on ?

 

I do not think I will be doing any tram modelling in the near future as our club currently has eight exhibition bookings for this year involving four different layouts and most of them require some work done on them before they go out.

 

Look forward to hearing from you.

 

All the best

 

Ray

 

[alastairq]

Aaaah! RTs!

I drove those on a daily basis from '72 to '74....out of New Cross, on the No.1 route. [RMs on a Sunday..plus, foreshortened route]...

[wainwright1]

Yes the No.1 was my local route when I lived near to South Bermondsey Station. Also the 199 and for a time the 60. 

Not to mention the 202, the only red RF route in our area due to the low bridges in Trundleys Road. Not that it stopped at least one RT trying to go down there and taking its roof off on the Deptford Wharf Branch bridge. There were green RFs on the the 701, 702 and 703 Green Line routes up the Old Kent Road.

Ray

[coline33]

Ray, most if not all of John L Smith's tram photos he sold were the copyright of others hence not in the LOSA collection.   Today, some will be found in the National Tramway Museum photographic collection which is online but most probably with David.   He offers an eight page list for the price of two second class stamps sent to A.D.Packer, 11 Clarence Road, Bickley, Bromley,  BR1 2DD.   Let him know that the recommendation came from Colin Withey and that you are interested in London trams, buses and trolleybuses.   His archive is extensive and built up over 65 years covering UK and foreign systems.   Alas I was involved in the sale of Ken Carr's house in Croydon in the late 80s.   Ken's collection passed to a private owner for whom I cataloged all the views that were Ken's copyright - so please email your address to me direct and I will send you copy of my list.   All the best, Colin.

[Engineer]

I’m only an occasional visitor to RMWeb and I'm very pleased to see the examples of a plug-in tram chassis. 

 

Just for interest, I developed my own version of a scratchbuilt chassis suitable for my London [and other trams] with the aim of keeping the mechanism below seat cushion level, able to take small radii and climb appropriate gradients  Installation followed similar principles to the version in this thread, locating beneath the platform.

 

My father bought Bec E/1 and Feltham kits in the late 1960s to build with me and we both were unhappy with bulk and performance of the mechanisms as supplied, so we took a joint decision to await improved mechanisms before proceeding.  Very many years later, I had time and opportunity to do the development work as better motors and gears were available and work colleagues had alerted me to these.

 

I developed chassis variants for LUT cars, the E/1, the HR/2 and the Feltham, all using similar key features and demonstrated these about a decade ago.  I’m satisfied with the design.  The chassis work was mentioned in threads on old RMWeb which have now vanished, alas.  My modelling work was mothballed again as life and work responsibilities must have priority, but there will come a time when I return to modelling and resume building of these.

 

I may have some copies of the thread pages somewhere and I do have several of the original pictures stored, so if these are of interest, I will add them. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Engineer

[coline33]

Welcome "Engineer", please remove the 'veil' as your post is so pertinent and I would love to know who you are and in which location you reside?   Yes, please follow up with your concept on mechs.   Please let us see views of your rolling stock.   In fact, it might now be time to start the return of the cars to service!

 

My apologies to your father with his experiences of the early BEC motor bogies.   The original kits had Tri-ang motors on end pivoted bogies but the next upgrade of the E/1 used K's motor parts which I used to build up on Saturdays, finish curing in the heat of the oven after the roast mid-day on Sunday, test them and deliver to Frank that PM!   The failure rate even at that stage was high so the better ones delivered did not even meet the demand for the kits!   In the attempt to improve the motors, Frank went to South Africa where a very small motor ideal for going under the floor was in development.   Alas the cost to put into production defeated its designer but of course the Japanese came to the rescue!

 

Like your concept, mine too permitted removing the bottom half of people for their tops to be affixed to the top of the unit, something David Voice had already done on his cars.  With the introduction of the OOC/Atlas Felthams, I required nine motored for production Felthams/Experimental Car No.2 and one for the first experimental 'Blossom' for the "West Croydon" layout.   Alan Kirkman built the mechs from PC Models parts and these went under the lower saloon seats.   During the decade and a half that "West Croydon" went the exhibition rounds with its intensive tram service operation, the motors stood up well - the only motor failure being one of the two under an E-class car.   Both my ex-LUT cars came 'off-the-peg' with motor bogies in place, such was the immediate need to get a full complement of cars to work the service 7 to Sutton.   (It was in Tamworth Road that a change of operator caused the only major accident we ever had.   A reversing short working service 7, K's E type single-decker to Wallington, was shot across West Croydon into Station Road by a speeding Tramlink car bound for New Addington!   Lesson learnt that an on-coming Duty Controller must first familarise themselves with the location of every car before any movement!)  

 

So please maintain a permanent link with us and present us with as much as you can.   We look forward to your future posts.   Kind regards, Colin.

[coline33]

My world goes round in circles!!!   Time now to return to London tram modelling so I have had to review what I am doing.   I have decided not to proceed further with the "Rotherhithe New Road" concept but to revert to a previous concept of the "High Road".   This is a single sided display of a double track conduit London high street with the other side of the circuit being the fiddle yard.   So anyone is welcome to use my RNR concept!

 

I need a layout to just run my fleet and be simplistic in track work and electrics so that I can put time to rolling stock building as I have so much London stock in the wings.   First off will be LPTB Breakdown Car 045.   Yes, an inhabitant of Brixton Hill.   I do occasionally buy in from Ebay and bought a demi-car for my 'four-foot' line which required repainting into the 1900s BET livery.   I finally produced the best Munich Lake and Primrose I had ever made and of course this was the original LCC livery and the one that 045 kept for its life.   I normally go for a complete BEC kit No.12 as per attached view which can be built as a 'plug-in' body with the kit bolsters scrapped and the motor bogies rebuilt for a 'plug-in' mech.  However, I did find on Ebay some built up bodies badly painted.   One was a BEC/ABS B class in horrible chocolate and bright yellow!!!   The body was in good nick so I have painted white  (as per the view) as the base to paint the original LCC livery.   So as it developes I will add photos and hope this inspires interest in four-wheelers for which Brixton Hill became the scrap yard for many different classes/types.   Colin.

[Engineer]

Just to complement my note in the track thread on track design constraints for maximum traction chassis design in 4mm, so far I have unearthed one of the trial chassis I built and tested long ago.  It was built to test the possibilities to model the under-represented Birmingham system and in the hope of a 3D print version of a Birmingham bogie car being produced.

 

In this trial, I built the chassis for 12mm gauge to suit available test track, though the correct gauge of 14mm would ease the design.  The chassis should fit inside the lower saloon of a model, supported under the platforms, and not rise above cushion height which is about 16mm above rail.  The design incorporates a number of engineering compromises from the real thing and to get clearance for the motor in this very restricted envelope, I eased the overall wheelbase from scale 53.5mm to about 55mm otherwise kept to broadly the correct prototype dimensions.  The chassis had a lot of testing, successfully, very many hours round a small plain circuit at various speeds, forward and reverse both in direction and relative to track.  It is grubby thanks to the testing and storage.  One design compromise in this prototype was to omit strain relief for the wires which get a lot of flexing at the pick-up terminals, so there are a couple of loose ends now.  The pictures have a small amount of distortion, given the close views.

[coline33]

Thank you for the views.   The mech looks fine.   I note your statement about Birmingham being under-modelled - certainly in 4mm.scale.   The late Peter Walker who I knew was a keen modeller of that system in 4mm. and had articles about his layout published.   As you say 14mm. gauge is what you really want.   Are you interested in pursuing modelling Birmingham and the Black Country 3'6" gauge system?   Could I have your permission to send these views to my West Midland modelling friends to see if more interest could be raised?   I feel sure you are not alone about using 14mm. gauge track.   Colin.

 

 

[Engineer]

As RMWeb is public domain, fine to forward the page link. 

 

I believe 3'6" tramways in general are under-represented in model form yet have plenty of interest.  I did consider concepts for dioramas for Birmingham and Black Country, but also of other characterful 3'6" tramways.  Each diorama would incorporate moving vehicles.  The availability of 3D print or etched kits is one of the critical factors and it can only be a matter of time before a Birmingham bogie car is produced as a kit or a shell.  I won't get further involved with modelling until personal life and work circumstances change a lot, however.

 

London remains my main interest, of course, and for interest I've found old pictures of my 4mm Feltham chassis, designed to fit the Corgi model and set up with a centre rail pick-up for a trial of lighting.  Also in the pictures, trial chassis for E/3, LUT Type Y and an HR/2 chassis again with experimental lighting and centre-rail pick-up.

[coline33]

Many thanks for the full range of your photos of the mech.    Very pleased to see that it is a Feltham as the body.   The lighting aspect looks to me as a first!   I do hope you can continue to finish it as the LUT version.   If my Felthams had interior lighting naturally the internal decor and seat colours would stand out on both decks.   If you want any white metal Feltham parts to solder on to the mech I hold a stock if you want to contact me off-group.   All the best, Colin.

[wagonbasher]

On 26/04/2019 at 21:20, Engineer said:

As RMWeb is public domain, fine to forward the page link. 

 

I believe 3'6" tramways in general are under-represented in model form yet have plenty of interest.  I did consider concepts for dioramas for Birmingham and Black Country, but also of other characterful 3'6" tramways.  Each diorama would incorporate moving vehicles.  The availability of 3D print or etched kits is one of the critical factors and it can only be a matter of time before a Birmingham bogie car is produced as a kit or a shell.  I won't get further involved with modelling until personal life and work circumstances change a lot, however.

 

London remains my main interest, of course, and for interest I've found old pictures of my 4mm Feltham chassis, designed to fit the Corgi model and set up with a centre rail pick-up for a trial of lighting.  Also in the pictures, trial chassis for E/3, LUT Type Y and an HR/2 chassis again with experimental lighting and centre-rail pick-up.

 

 

Hi

 

interested in the drive system.  Presumably that is a centrally mounted motor using both ends of the drive shaft through some form of flexidrive.  I guess the gearing to the bogie needs to be 'handed' as the two ends of drive shaft is rotating in different directions in relation to the bogie.

 

would you please talk us through what you have, is it your work or is this commercially available as a kit.

 

it looks very good and leaves the bottom deck mostly motor free

 

andy

[Engineer]

In response to the message immediately preceding this, yes, it relies fundamentally on flexible connections in order to function correctly and one of the key design critera was to reduce visibility of the drive mechanism compared to commercial products, and I judged this to be a limiting dimension of 16mm above rail in the centre area of the vehicle, broadly equivalent to the top surface of a lower saloon seat.  It is correct that handing needs careful design to suit overall goals and prototype.

The various chassis configurations are my own engineering from 2006-2009, applying some shared principles and features and incorporating learning from seeing and handling other tramway model drive products and kits available in the mid-2000s and before, with the benefit of comments from expert tramway modellers and from reading and seeing the work of railway modellers, notably the P4 and DEMU communities.  The specialist parts required are the Ultrascale gears and the flexible tube, otherwise all other items are conventional raw modelling material.

[coline33]

Andy, as Engineer said these mechs were his own experimentals done many years ago.   The concept of the centrally mounted motor and flexible drive was (and maybe still is) to be seen in US produced commercial RTR models both tram and train.   PC Models used to produce a kit of similar design to build the bogies and gearing but this is no longer available.  However, most of my Felthams use the PC Models kit mechs which Alan Kirkman built for me to go under the OOC bodies.   These cars ran from 2001 to 2015 at the majority of shows where John Clarke exhibited his "West Croydon" layout so the cars got a good deal of track bashing over point work to which they have stood up well with very little maintenance.   As you say the design leaves the 'bottom deck mostly motor free' which for the OOC bodies means that the lower saloon seat section can be retained.   Engineer has even gone as far as creating a lighting circuit which on the OOC Feltham would enhance the interior decoration especially the seat colour.   In my 'plug-in' principle, the mech does not protrude above the waist line so also giving space to have passengers although only above the waist!   The gearing on each of my PC Models bogies is the same but I will leave Engineer to explain his method and experience.   For London trams, the method works well on Felthams but others I know have had problems when it came to the E/1 family.   The E class have the worst situation and even with my 'plug-in' method the body mounted plough carrier pieces have to have their sides filed thin to fit between the bogies.   Colin.

[coline33]

Further to the photo of the white painted body in my post for 16 April, work has proceeded on LPTB 045 breakdown car to the present extent as shown.   Next stage is the completion of the platform details and dashes.   Recycling this old secondhand body has been slow going particularly with the LCC livery.   I found that I had other bodies to be recycled or finished for which the same livery was required, so I am now constructing two cars that LPTB inherited and never repainted, a 'what-if' Class B in LPTB livery, and a driver instruction vehicle.   All but the last mentioned were to be found within Brixton Hill depot.    The instruction vehicle was an open-top double deck Class B car 126 that the LCC reduced to single deck form for the mass driver training program at Streatham depot for the change from cable to electric traction - long before the need of Brixton Hill depot!

[thirty2a]

Hi guys just catching up on the threads.

Not had a chance to do anything on the depot recently as time has been against me and needed to do some work on the n gauge and o gauge stuff, however I intend to remove the rails and cut traverser pit this week ... Hopefully get the project back up and running.

Interested in the mechs always need power for the trams.

Think I need to change the thread name too ...