GWR to lease ‘tri-mode’ class 769 multiple units from Porterbrook

[Mike_Walker]

But at that time there was a proposal to electrify Didcot to Birmingham/Coventry as part of the aborted "Electric Spine".

[Northmoor]

12 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The DC all the way from Clapham Jn to Reading would need a lot of reinforcement to allow that, plus the air gap neutral section between Didcot and Coventry would cost a lot more than the AC/DC changeover in Reading

I would have loved to have seen (thanks to completion of the "Redhill flyover") Class 92s on Intermodals thundering along the North Downs line, but have always assumed the real problem was the short 2-track section through Guildford tunnel, a constraint on both capacity and gauge clearance.

[Zomboid]

It would still cost a lot to upgrade the DC route to Reading to handle 92s. And the electric spine would have introduced an AC/DC interface at Basingstoke and then either a lot of upgrades on the route via Winchester or another one or two interfaces at Southampton if they the Andover route were wired.

[Zomboid]

2 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I would have loved to have seen (thanks to completion of the "Redhill flyover") Class 92s on Intermodals thundering along the North Downs line, but have always assumed the real problem was the short 2-track section through Guildford tunnel, a constraint on both capacity and gauge clearance.

That would have been good, though without the "flyover" and Redhill to Wokingham electrification, the boat train routes up to Clapham are actually capable of handling a 92 on DC.

[DY444]

5 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Ealing Broadway

 

.. and Acton Central

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/12/2021 at 19:29, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

The other designer currently on 769 Dynamic PCO was, in a previous life, one of the Track PEs for the Reading remodelling, with particular responsibility for the Southern lines (he was the one who named Reading Southern Junction).

 

He has said in the past that there was discussion at the time of providing 3rd rail up from the Southern to the Western to allow Class 92s on operate all the way from the Chanel Tunnel up to the Midlands via Reading (although I think this a hypothetical scenario). However I think cost and actual need, plus the conditions at the bottom of the dive under meant that it didn’t go any further.

 

As for wiring Ealing Broadway to Acton Wells, that is in the cards as part of the Old Oak Common Station scope.

 

Simon

So does that mean that what was once called (by the WR) 'Reading Southern Region Junction' and was called 'Reading Junction' by the SR is now called 'Reading Southern Junction' by everybody?   That sounds like a sensible change.  

 

Unlike the person who decided that as everybody knew where Reading High Level was he/she would transfer the name to somewhere way beyond the other end of the station in order to confuse people because what he/she was really talking about was the top of the flyover and not Reading High Level (which is where the route to Reading Southern (Region) Junction leaves the GWML (hence a traction changeover sign for a Class 769 at the east end of platforms 14/15.

 

And yes, there were various ideas abouta freight route from the channel Tunnel via redhill and Guildford tp Reading which probably emanated from somebody looking at a small scale map without appreciating the need to reverse at Redhill (there was later talk of a chord so they caught up on that bit).  I don't honestly think it was a goer from even before it was mentioned as the costs of creating the route simply for signalling changes alone would have been massive and with very little traffic justification.

 

The other Reading electrification proposal which surfaced every now and then was to provide 3rd rail from Reading New Jcn over the Down Main through Platform 4 (now no.70) and then on throughout to Basingstoke to permit a through passenger service of 3rd rail EMUs.  at one time it was being treated as quite a serious proposition (far more so than the freight route ever was) but it obviously never happened either.

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/12/2021 at 21:00, Zomboid said:

That would have been good, though without the "flyover" and Redhill to Wokingham electrification, the boat train routes up to Clapham are actually capable of handling a 92 on DC.

How long has that been permitted I wonder?

 

The original intention was to clear the route Clapham - Redhill - Tonbridge for Class 92 operation fotr freight working but it was cancelled in order to save money mainly because of signalling costs which came to a head with a ruckus over which Sector (as thinsg stood at the time) was going to pay for an additional equipment for Redhill because the new kit that was provided was found to have be inadequate. Thus the route was never cleared for Class 92s in the original programme of clearances and was taken out of the Class 92 route clearance programme.

[Zomboid]

I don't know about that. What I can say with some confidence is that the electrification on the routes that 373s used is capable of supplying a 92 on DC. The Tonbridge to Redhill scheme was built to allow 92s as well (I believe RfD paid for it because NSE claimed they'd carry on using thumpers), but for Redhill to Clapham they built but didn't commission the substations, so the trains would have got stuck at Redhill. (The substations were brought into service for the slam door replacement project).

 

Signalling and the like... No idea.

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I don't know about that. What I can say with some confidence is that the electrification on the routes that 373s used is capable of supplying a 92 on DC. The Tonbridge to Redhill scheme was built to allow 92s as well (I believe RfD paid for it because NSE claimed they'd carry on using thumpers), but for Redhill to Clapham they built but didn't commission the substations, so the trains would have got stuck at Redhill. (The substations were brought into service for the slam door replacement project).

 

Signalling and the like... No idea.

373s via Clapham and Redhill had been dropped from the scheme some time before then hence Eurostar funds paid no money at all towards any traction supply enhancement or signalling & control immunisation (including track circuits) on any part of the route between Clapham Jcn and Redhill and thence to Tonbridge.   The only Eurostar route which got any nearer to Clapham Jcn than West London Jcn was the emergency route via Kew and on that route Class 373s were hauled dead and it only ever g happened once to my knowledge. (using a pair of Class 73 EDs)

 

When Eurostar pulled the plug on any investment in upgrading the route via Clapham Jcn and Redhill that left RfD holding the poison chalice and the lack of processing capacity in the new processing units supplied for Redhill put the tin hat on it (and I don't think the track circuits between Clapham Jcn and Redhill were ever upgraded either).

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 14/12/2021 at 11:42, The Stationmaster said:

There was one 769 set visible outdoors on Reading depot yesterday.……

I saw several sets (possibly 4 sets?) at the far western end of the Reading depot, this morning.

 

I also saw a number of these 769 sets stabled at the northern end of Oxford.

 

 

.

[Banger Blue]

Currently three sets at Reading: 769925 / 928 / 932

Oxford: 930 / 937 / 946 / 959

 

There are also three GWR sets currently at Eastleigh: 938 / 943 / 949

 

The remainder of GWR's 769s have yet to be delivered to Reading.

[phil-b259]

On 18/12/2021 at 18:48, The Stationmaster said:

 

When Eurostar pulled the plug on any investment in upgrading the route via Clapham Jcn and Redhill that left RfD holding the poison chalice and the lack of processing capacity in the new processing units supplied for Redhill put the tin hat on it (and I don't think the track circuits between Clapham Jcn and Redhill were ever upgraded either).

 

Until a couple of years ago the Redhill - Clapham route induced lots of 'Reed' type track circuits which all had to be ripped out of areas used by 373s, 92s and Networkers due to the ability of said traction to potentially cause a WSF / false clears.

 

 

[Metr0Land]

On 18/12/2021 at 18:48, The Stationmaster said:

 The only Eurostar route which got any nearer to Clapham Jcn than West London Jcn was the emergency route via Kew and on that route Class 373s were hauled dead and it only ever g happened once to my knowledge. (using a pair of Class 73 EDs)

 

 

 

It happened with a pair of 37's on 17Feb03 although that was (IIRC) a drag of a North of London set from North Pole to Clapham Junction (seen at South Acton).  Edit:  working was 5X09 Ferme Park-North Pole

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Metr0Land
Correct working details added

[The Stationmaster]

On 22/12/2021 at 22:35, phil-b259 said:

 

Until a couple of years ago the Redhill - Clapham route induced lots of 'Reed' type track circuits which all had to be ripped out of areas used by 373s, 92s and Networkers due to the ability of said traction to potentially cause a WSF / false clears.

 

 

And that was why the route was never cleared for 373s and 92s.  The power supply might well have been up to it but the signalling mods were never carried out because of the cost and when Eurostar pulled out - at a very early stage - RfD were not prepared to pick up the bill.

 

373s really could play merry h*ll with certain types of track circuits including an early version of the Aster track circuit and all the CTR routes had to have at least some track circuits replaced as did the West London Line.

[Artless Bodger]

Saw a pair of 769s at Grazeley Green Road bridge this morning heading towards Basingstoke. As I'd doubt the Reading - Basingstoke service would require 8 cars, I presume this was a mileage accumulation or driver training run? Glad to see them, and they looked nice and shiny new.

[Banger Blue]

3 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Saw a pair of 769s at Grazeley Green Road bridge this morning heading towards Basingstoke. As I'd doubt the Reading - Basingstoke service would require 8 cars, I presume this was a mileage accumulation or driver training run? Glad to see them, and they looked nice and shiny new.

The GWR 769s are being rotated through Arlington (Eastleigh Works) where they are having modifications done. 99% sure it’s ASDO mods (Automatic Selective Door Opening). There was a swap today. A pair went from Reading TCD -  Eastleigh and a pair made the return trip back to Reading. 
 

AFAIK the only other big mod that is happening is the fitting of air cooling to the cabs (at least).

 

Driver Training hasn’t commenced yet as the local ASLEF haven’t rubber stamped their approval. The main issues I believe is the cab cooling and some ergonomic factors about the cab!

 

Mileage Accumulation is either done by COLAS drivers or by GWR Driver Trainers / Standards Managers building their driving hours up and these runs (Mon, Wed & Fri) are are mainly over the North Downs to Gatwick Airport for Diesel / DC or between Maidenhead & Swindon for AC running.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Banger Blue

[Artless Bodger]

2 hours ago, Banger Blue said:

The GWR 769s are being rotated through Arlington (Eastleigh Works) where they are having modifications done. 99% sure it’s ASDO mods (Automatic Selective Door Opening). There was a swap today. A pair went from Reading TCD -  Eastleigh and a pair made the return trip back to Reading. 
 

AFAIK the only other big mod that is happening is the fitting of air cooling to the cabs (at least).

 

Driver Training hasn’t commenced yet as the local ASLEF haven’t rubber stamped their approval. The main issues I believe is the cab cooling and some ergonomic factors about the cab!

 

Mileage Accumulation is either done by COLAS drivers or by GWR Driver Trainers / Standards Managers building their driving hours up and these runs (Mon, Wed & Fri) are are mainly over the North Downs to Gatwick Airport for Diesel / DC or between Maidenhead & Swindon for AC running.

Thank you, interesting and useful. I'll have to have a wander over to Earley station to look out for one.

[DY444]

13 hours ago, Banger Blue said:

The GWR 769s are being rotated through Arlington (Eastleigh Works) where they are having modifications done. 99% sure it’s ASDO mods (Automatic Selective Door Opening). There was a swap today. A pair went from Reading TCD -  Eastleigh and a pair made the return trip back to Reading. 
 

AFAIK the only other big mod that is happening is the fitting of air cooling to the cabs (at least).

 

Driver Training hasn’t commenced yet as the local ASLEF haven’t rubber stamped their approval. The main issues I believe is the cab cooling and some ergonomic factors about the cab!

 

Mileage Accumulation is either done by COLAS drivers or by GWR Driver Trainers / Standards Managers building their driving hours up and these runs (Mon, Wed & Fri) are are mainly over the North Downs to Gatwick Airport for Diesel / DC or between Maidenhead & Swindon for AC running.

 

Oh the joys of the fragmented railway. 

ASLEF members drive 319s for the thick end of 30 years on Thameslink

ASLEF members drive 319s and 769s on Northern

ASLEF members drive 319s on LNWR

ASLEF members drive 769s on TfW

ASLEF says the 769s at GWR are unacceptable without cab modifications.

Edited April 7, 2022 by DY444

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

Oh the joys of the fragmented railway. 

ASLEF members drive 319s for the thick end of 30 years on Thameslink

ASLEF members drive 319s and 769s on Northern

ASLEF members drive 319s on LNWR

ASLEF members drive 769s on TfW

ASLEF says the 769s at GWR are unacceptable without cab modifications.

From discussions over on WNXX by some involved, IIRC GWR made commitments in terms of driver environment which haven’t been installed as yet

 

there is also an issue of reliability & availability of the 769/9s which by all accounts is woeful

[Mike_Walker]

I was talking recently to someone very senior in the industry with direct involvement with 769s who described them very succinctly: "Absolute c**p!"

 

Meanwhile, GWR have confirmed theirs will not be in passenger service from May despite what the DafT thinks/wants... 

[DY444]

40 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

From discussions over on WNXX by some involved, IIRC GWR made commitments in terms of driver environment which haven’t been installed as yet

 

there is also an issue of reliability & availability of the 769/9s which by all accounts is woeful

Unless you know for certain that those commitments were not made by GWR in response to ASLEF demands then my point still stands.

 

Reliability and availability is indeed awful but that is not going to be affected by cab ergonomic changes or whether cab cooling is installed or not. 

[DY444]

23 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

I was talking recently to someone very senior in the industry with direct involvement with 769s who described them very succinctly: "Absolute c**p!"

 

Meanwhile, GWR have confirmed theirs will not be in passenger service from May despite what the DafT thinks/wants... 

 

Indeed, I can think of at least 3 significant design flaws, 2 of which should have been foreseen and the other would almost certainly have been avoided had the project been organised differently.  Unlike many people I actually thought this was a good idea however it needed to be approached in the right way.  It wasn't and we can see the results.  It's turning out to be a text book example of all the things you don't do if you want a project to succeed. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 07/04/2022 at 09:41, Mike_Walker said:

I was talking recently to someone very senior in the industry with direct involvement with 769s who described them very succinctly: "Absolute c**p!"

 

Meanwhile, GWR have confirmed theirs will not be in passenger service from May despite what the DafT thinks/wants... 

Your second point agrees with something our Branch User Group has been told - 'December at the earliest' (which December was not stated).

 

Incidentally is there any truth in the information i picked up from somewhere that all the TfW 769s have been taken out of traffic due to reliability (serious lack of) problems?

[Metr0Land]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Incidentally is there any truth in the information i picked up from somewhere that all the TfW 769s have been taken out of traffic due to reliability (serious lack of) problems?

 

At least 2 are diagrammed on Bargoed services today, maybe more I didn't check them all.

[Mike_Walker]

18 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Your second point agrees with something our Branch User Group has been told - 'December at the earliest' (which December was not stated).

 

Incidentally is there any truth in the information i picked up from somewhere that all the TfW 769s have been taken out of traffic due to reliability (serious lack of) problems?

Not that I've heard although they are struggling to start the day with the diagrammed number of sets and keep them running all day.  I understand though that they have rejected the final set which has not been delivered.