Do we need a 'failure simulator' decoder?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Prompted by these posts that happened along in the Rails/Rapido dyno car thread:

With that piece of information fully aired it can't be long before someone announces a model of the Leader!

Should it have two-wheel pick up, a tiny, coreless motor, no flywheels, a fragile gear train and a fireman hanging out of the window of the centre cab? For realism.

 

Should there be a RTR OO model of Leader it would potentially have all the advantages of the heavy centre motor both bogies driven mechanisms, now standard in twin bogie traction. As such it would quite likely be the best performing RTR OO UK steam model by quite some margin, which would be deeply ironic.

 

We already have RTR OO models of several less than reliable traction units (I have the bounty of fine RTR models of classes 15, 16, 23 and 105, and have cobbled together a class 21 from RTR parts) all of which operate rather too well. I seek to overcome this unrealism by means of a dedicated pack of cards for the KX steam to diesel transition, one of which is drawn before every inner-sub movement to 'randomly' inflict failures on these all too reliable models.

 

Surely there is a technical solution just begging to be deployed? A little extra software in a decoder which will stop the loco on some pseudo-random basis for the applicable failures of the class (user selectable), with a readable CV to inform the operator of what went wrong this time, and a reset facility so that the cripple can then be shunted aside.

 

It would be quite widely applicable: Fowler's ghost, the Paget loco, Thompson L1, the Fell, half the BR pilot scheme diesels...

 

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm all for lifelike operation. Decoders for modern units could add a SIM and phone a friend to bring over a rescue loco, thus ensuring a realistic delay before resumption of normal service. Or perhaps a little hook could be deployed from the panto of your 91 to tear down the overhead, hours of fun ensuing.

[Robert Shrives]

One part of the real railway it can keep thanks !

 

Mind you we have managed multiple coupler types that do not work together !!

[The Johnster]

I am considering a card based random operating failure generator system for Cwmdimbath.  One pack of cards will represent items of stock, and another will represent types of failure.  The majority of failure cards will represent normal reliable running.  At the beginning of each operating day sequence, a die is thrown, firstly to determine if any cards are to be drawn at all, and then to determine the number of cards drawn from the shuffled packs.  Stock cards are drawn first, and then failure cards for each type of stock.  Failure cards will represent 4 types of failure according to whether applied to locomotives, carriage stock, auto fitted, or wagons; a carriage cannot have a hot axle box, for example. 

 

Loco failures will range from requiring to take water all the way up to fusible plug, but the latter has to be a very slim chance.  The most failure prone will be auto fitted locos and stock, as I like the idea of messing up my timetable by having to run around with them.  Carriage failures will be rare, but might include unfit for service with broken window, or needing replacement vacuum hose when there are none on hand at Cwmdimbath and the brake van spare has already been used (B sets are immune from this, having 2 spares per set, and so are autos, which do not disconnect the vacuum bags in service anyway).  Wagons will be prone to hot axleboxes and dragging brakes, along with door failures especially on XPO wooden bodies.

 

There should, I reckon, be about a 75% chance of no incident during a working day.  We can also mess up the goods working by not having conflats available, or sliding door vans for unloading directly into lorries, or mileage customers not unloading wagons and blocking the yard because their lorry has broken down.  Further 'wild card' workings could be a wagon of coal, or even a fuel oil tank, for the Remploy private siding or pit props for the colliery.  I have been working a 'Control Order's' diagram during the daytime for the miner's workman's allocated loco, so the odd train turns up with material for the pithead baths being constructed down there.

 

I think something like this is worth doing if you run to a timetable, as spaniards thrown into the works were a feature of real railway operation; collection issues like my broken down lorry, staff sickness (shunter off sick so guard has to do all the pick up shunting, resulting in it taking more time and delaying other traffic), loco declared unfit for traffic by driver and no spare available (a morning shift one, this), urgent tail traffic for Remploy on passenger train which has to shunt it, and so on.  I can throw these in ad hoc if I am in the mood and think of them, but a random generated system will give a greater feeling of realism; something has happened which is out of your control buy you have to sort it out, just as real railway staff often did as part of a normal day's work!

 

Shunting problem operators who generate traffic with a card system are already half way there, of course,

[leavesontheline]

When I was young(er) we had just such a decoder. The system was called "Zero 1".

[The Johnster]

Ok, no need for cards, which will get mislaid, or dice; just downloaded a random number generator to the iPhone.  All I have to do now is work out what the numbers mean...

[great central]

. Or perhaps a little hook could be deployed from the panto of your 91 to tear down the overhead, hours of fun ensuing.

If the overhead is decently constructed as a miniature of the prototype, the loco will come to a fairly abrupt halt, most likely with it's nose in the air. I know this because my Triang EM2 fitted with Lima pantographs did pretty much that while causing serious distortion of the pans. It had at least 5 coaches on and is weighted with some lead. The overhead suffering a couple of bent or broken droppers!

[beast66606]

The MILF on Widnes Vine Yard had an add-on module which would generate random faults, based on a probability weighting, so when a train was described it might also get a problem with it along the lines of "Passenger disturbances, sit in station for 10 (actual) minutes" so all trains would then be signalled around the problem unit. We had about 10 different issues but found they prevented smooth operation at exhibtions so stopped using the module, instead we just randomly failed trains when the operators felt like it.

[njee20]

The MILF on Widnes Vine Yard had an add-on module which would generate random faults,

 

Not the conventional role for a MILF... 

 

Personally I find my stock randomly stops often enough without it being a design feature!

[pauliebanger]

Ok, no need for cards, which will get mislaid, or dice; just downloaded a random number generator to the iPhone.  All I have to do now is work out what the numbers mean...

 

It probably means you've paid too much for a 'phone. LOL

 

Paul

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I am considering a card based random operating failure generator system for Cwmdimbath.  One pack of cards will represent items of stock, and another will represent types of failure.  ...

 As a one time heavy duty bridge player, I have decks of old cards in abundance. The convenience with cards is that you just write on the failure it is generating, no need to look anything up. And after all the real steam railway was the quintessential paper shuffling exercise, the 'computer' was a hand cranked mechanical device, so it feels of the time. 

 

But I do notice that the real incidents are more fun. I have had two this year, slow progress due butterfly on line and derailment due to a fallen off vac brake cylinder.

[Norm81]

I may be wrong, but I thought some sound decoders had "failed start" in. So you'd have to switch the sound off and back on again for another try at starting the loco.

[APOLLO]

Failure is not an option.

 

 

Best film I've ever seen.

 

Brit15

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I may be wrong, but I thought some sound decoders had "failed start" in. So you'd have to switch the sound off and back on again for another try at starting the loco.

 Step in the right direction. I am looking for more options though, like various examples of  'somethings' under the bonnet failed while hauling a train for classes 15, 16, 21 and 23; and specific to the beloved Cravens (class 105) DMU, unable to find a gear, overheating so has to stop for radiator refill, insufficient oomph to get up the Northern heights.

[Pacific231G]

One part of the real railway it can keep thanks !

 

Mind you we have managed multiple coupler types that do not work together !!

So have they!

[njee20]

So have they!

That was the point...

 

 

...insufficient oomph to get up the Northern heights.

Why would that be a decoder feature? A loco stopping randomly on a flat piece of track under the auspices of "couldn't get up the gradient" would be daft. If you want to fail to get up a gradient just make the train longer/include a steeper gradient.

 

Definitely still not getting the appeal!

Edited June 19, 2018 by njee20

[PaulRhB]

We had about 10 different issues but found they prevented smooth operation at exhibtions so stopped using the module, instead we just randomly failed trains when the operators felt like it.

Sometimes making a model more realistic can move from an interesting challenge to too much like real work

Last thing you need at a show is a loco generating a simulated fault when you have a real fault with another train or the layout

I've got random fault cards on my HOm but they include other cards which implore you to have a choc mini roll

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Oh. I don't think there is any necessity for a failure generator at a show, The nature of that beast is that this generates problems aplenty! I am thinking very specifically of home operation.

 

Thinking about this earlier today, 'failure' can of course be generated from the command unit. Might be preferable too.

[The Johnster]

I remember an article in a 1960s Model Railway Constructor about instituting full inquiry procedures after a failure or derailment as an attempt to prevent a recurrence.  I sort of get where the author was coming from, but it's usually pretty obvious, and thought this approach was overkill.  Derailments should not occur on a well laid layout other than because of operator error, which I am proud to say is the only cause of them on Cwmdimbath, as well as being ashamed of being the erroneous operator (at least i can claim that operation to the 1955 Rule Book makes such errors rare).  And mechanical or electrical failures should not occur on a well maintained and electrically simple  layout; I am pleased to say that they don't on Cwmdimbath.

 

But the sort of failures we are talking about here are representative of the sort of thing that enlivened many a working day on the real railway, and may be caused by something that happened hundreds of miles away yesterday.  They can include not just failures but out of course running, staffing/crewing problems, Control pinching your loco for something else, or a shortage of the right sort of firebars; their inclusion on a layout cannot be physically modelled and has to take place arbitrarily in the operator's head (or it's mortal remains in my case), but can be a very satisfying disruption and problem that has to be sorted out.  

 

Real electrical or mechanical failures on a model are just annoying, and should be designed or built out as far as possible.  In my club days, I was particularly irritated by members' layouts which I couldn't operate properly at shows because 'that wagon always derails if you propel it over that turnout', or even 'you can't use that siding or make that prototypical movement because the turnout isn't wired'.  I work to the principle that all the stock can go anywhere unless it if forbidden in the local Sectional Appendix (outside cylindered locos not allowed in Remploy Siding beyond gate) in the interests of operational interest (there is actually plenty of clearance in the loading platform).  Going anywhere means propelling at a reasonable speed as well as hauling, without derailing or buffer locking.  Care was taken laying track to ensure smooth joins and level turnouts; it has paid off!

[PaulRhB]

Some dcc chips provide real smoke when the go into failure mode

[jjb1970]

This could really work, for example we could have prototypical Deltic models where you get a box of spare motors which you have to keep swapping around, diesel hydraulic models that nobody outside of Germany seems to be able to make work properly (and it's questionable whether the German's were that successful with them), 50's you need to send back to be rebuilt to try and make them work and Bulleid pacifics with Teflon wheels to get plenty of wheel spin. I see all sorts of potential to add more realism.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I remember an article in a 1960s Model Railway Constructor about instituting full inquiry procedures after a failure or derailment as an attempt to prevent a recurrence...

 That's exactly what I do. (Habit born out of starting my career in manufacturing industries. Driving out all the failures by understanding their causes and eliminating them is unspectacular - and actually I found positively distasteful to many UK engineers, they want to be on the cutting edge or nowhere, not putting right other folks' oversights - but does it pay off in efficiency gains. My best ever was to eliminate the night shift and all overtime in the space of three months on one production plant by such simple methods. 'Created' over 40% more manufacturing capacity by elimination of failure. They were a very sloppy outfit admittedly...)

 

Some dcc chips provide real smoke when the go into failure mode

 The most realistic steam loco smoke effect I have ever achieved was my one try out of the DC operation address 0 capability of DCC. I specifically chose a free running loco with a big motor, a conversion of a Hornby 9F to loco drive with a Mashima 1833; big motor, very free running unit, should be fine eh? There were several other locos running on DCC when I tried it and they didn't miss a beat as the Mashima motor promptly cooked expelling a large cloud out of the double chimney, with a little leakage forward around the cylinders. Not trying that ever again...

[runs as required]

The heyday of my roundy round layout was when young grandchildren loved to place tiny lambs, calves and piglets on the line on the far (country) side and delayed and delayed shouting STOP ! until the inevitable happened.

 

Another possibly most depressing of all wild card games might be to hit your epoch III BLT with the threat of closure.

All sorts of "Titfield Thunderbolt" re-enactions and Public Inquiries with fake accounting could ensue.

dh

Edited June 20, 2018 by runs as required

[Wild Boar Fell]

I have seen a OO class 37 which had 4 different engine start up sequences which would play on a random basis. One of these included the loco failing to start. Think it was one of the LYDCC layouts

[Talltim]

Sometimes making a model more realistic can move from an interesting challenge to too much like real work

Last thing you need at a show is a loco generating a simulated fault when you have a real fault with another train or the layout

I've got random fault cards on my HOm but they include other cards which implore you to have a choc mini roll

A random cake generator sounds much more fun