Heath Town and other signalling diversions

[Clive Mortimore]

57 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Aaaargh!

Why can't architects/specifiers/installers have a bit of pride in their work?

I know it's "only" in a garage, but why haven't they installed a boiler capable of being stood off the wall and having the pipes hidden?, that is an abomination and makes my eyes bleed.

 

Mike.

Hi Mike

 

I know at one time you worked where I now live, by the sounds of it you are not to blame for all the interesting pipe runs in our house, bits have been added, rerouted and some I don't think even carry anything anymore.

[Enterprisingwestern]

31 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Mike

 

I know at one time you worked where I now live, by the sounds of it you are not to blame for all the interesting pipe runs in our house, bits have been added, rerouted and some I don't think even carry anything anymore.

 

Although not responsible, if the situation were different, I'd be over like a shot to sort and neaten it all out, scrappy pipework and wiring are inexcusable.

 

Mike.

[5BarVT]

More concept proving today.  Still on the test 1:20 gradient.

Bachmann 3 car 108: no problem.

Limby 3 car 101: no problem, just start gently.

Lima 3 car 117: no chance!  Couldn’t even cope as 2 car, so 1:40 for real may be a bit much.  Backup plan is to pair with a Limby 121 or Dapol failing that.

Somewhere I have an old Tri-ang 101with serrated drive wheels, will be interesting to see how that copes!

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

More concept proving today.  Still on the test 1:20 gradient.

Bachmann 3 car 108: no problem.

Limby 3 car 101: no problem, just start gently.

Lima 3 car 117: no chance!  Couldn’t even cope as 2 car, so 1:40 for real may be a bit much.  Backup plan is to pair with a Limby 121 or Dapol failing that.

Somewhere I have an old Tri-ang 101with serrated drive wheels, will be interesting to see how that copes!

Paul.

Magnadhesion (or a modern version of same) is your friend.

[ISW]

6 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Lima 3 car 117: no chance!  Couldn’t even cope as 2 car, so 1:40 for real may be a bit much.

Paul,

 

Oh I don't know ... my 3-car DMUs (Lima Class 117, Hornby Class 110) both have no trouble with my long ~1:40 ramp tracks, even with curves. I have re-motored them both with CD-ROM motors, but that shouldn't affect the traction.

 

Ian

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, ISW said:

Paul,

 

Oh I don't know ... my 3-car DMUs (Lima Class 117, Hornby Class 110) both have no trouble with my long ~1:40 ramp tracks, even with curves. I have re-motored them both with CD-ROM motors, but that shouldn't affect the traction.

 

Ian

 

It's only my thoughts and observations, but I think you might be doing the CD motors a dis-service, when the motor runs smoother and more is more receptive to the controller, then the resistance seems to be lower and the motor is capable of putting out more power to rails. I haven't tried it with a gradient, but my non scientific testing on flat track allowed a re-motored loco to pull more wagons, so I think the same theory should work on gradients?

 

Mike.

[37Oban]

11 hours ago, ISW said:

Paul,

 

Oh I don't know ... my 3-car DMUs (Lima Class 117, Hornby Class 110) both have no trouble with my long ~1:40 ramp tracks, even with curves. I have re-motored them both with CD-ROM motors, but that shouldn't affect the traction.

 

Ian

Hi,

traction isn't just about the power output of the motor but other factors such as gearing.  An 08 only has a 350hp engine, which delivers less at the rails due to various resistance lossess, yet can move 1000+t trains.  The higher the gearing the more difficult it is to maintain traction below a balancing speed.  Imagine you are in a car and trying to drive up a long, steep hill in fourth.  Before you get very far you either stall or, by changing down to a lower gear, sail up the hill!  This also applies to our models.  It's simple physics and, imho, using a dodge like magnahesion is ignoring the real reason models do not perform on inclines like we want them too.  Change the gearing, maybe add a wee bit of extra mass, and you should be fine.

 

Roja

[5BarVT]

Thanks Ian, Mike and Roja.

Reducing the Test gradient to 1:37 has the Lima 117 getting up there, but with a bit of slip.  I’m hopeful that a bit of weight may just give the extra friction needed.  It’s a new (to me) model that has only operated on my gradient test as it’s not been chipped yet, so it may be a bit sticky on the trailer bearings too.  A bit of backwards and forwards on the layout may give some benefits too.

Paul.

[TheSignalEngineer]

20 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Lima 3 car 117: no chance!  Couldn’t even cope as 2 car, so 1:40 for real may be a bit much.  Backup plan is to pair with a Limby 121 or Dapol failing that.

Somewhere I have an old Tri-ang 101with serrated drive wheels, will be interesting to see how that copes!

Paul.

I remember some classes of DMU on the Buxton line being paired with a Class 128 DPU supposedly to give enough power to get up the hills around Dove Holes.

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Thanks Ian, Mike and Roja.

Reducing the Test gradient to 1:37 has the Lima 117 getting up there, but with a bit of slip.  I’m hopeful that a bit of weight may just give the extra friction needed.  It’s a new (to me) model that has only operated on my gradient test as it’s not been chipped yet, so it may be a bit sticky on the trailer bearings too.  A bit of backwards and forwards on the layout may give some benefits too.

Paul.

 

WD40!!!!!

 

Mike.

[ISW]

3 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Reducing the Test gradient to 1:37 has the Lima 117 getting up there, but with a bit of slip.  I’m hopeful that a bit of weight may just give the extra friction needed.  It’s a new (to me) model that has only operated on my gradient test as it’s not been chipped yet, so it may be a bit sticky on the trailer bearings too.

My Lima 117 didn't have any extra weight added (or removed), but the windows have been replaced with SE Finecast ones. It was chipped with a simple Hattons 8-pin one. I bought the model new in ~1981 and it wasn't actually powered or run until 2018! I'm fairly sure (the model is boxed up at present) that all the wheels and axles were metal on all 3-cars.

 

Good luck with the gradients. Just make sure you have nice vertical curves at the top/bottom of the gradients. You can see how I did them at: 

 

 

Ian 

[St Enodoc]

16 hours ago, 37Oban said:

Hi,

traction isn't just about the power output of the motor but other factors such as gearing.  An 08 only has a 350hp engine, which delivers less at the rails due to various resistance lossess, yet can move 1000+t trains.  The higher the gearing the more difficult it is to maintain traction below a balancing speed.  Imagine you are in a car and trying to drive up a long, steep hill in fourth.  Before you get very far you either stall or, by changing down to a lower gear, sail up the hill!  This also applies to our models.  It's simple physics and, imho, using a dodge like magnahesion is ignoring the real reason models do not perform on inclines like we want them too.  Change the gearing, maybe add a wee bit of extra mass, and you should be fine.

 

Roja

Traction (tractive effort) and power are two different things. What's missing when you slip on a gradient is tractive effort, which means that there is not enough friction force between the wheels and rails. There are two common ways to improve this for model railways - more mass above the powered axle(s) or additional force from magnets.

[37Oban]

15 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Traction (tractive effort) and power are two different things. What's missing when you slip on a gradient is tractive effort, which means that there is not enough friction force between the wheels and rails. There are two common ways to improve this for model railways - more mass above the powered axle(s) or additional force from magnets.

I agree that tractive effort and the power output of the engine are two different things, and both diesel and electric locos have both a maximum tractive effort and a continuous tractive effort, which is lower than the maximium, and the gearing affects the tractive effort.  For example, two of the three Southern diesel pioneers had an original continuous tractive effort of 14,000lbs at 37mph and were geared for a maximim speed of 110mph.  Afte re-gearing the maximum speed was reduced to 85mph but their continuous tractive effort rose to 21,500lbs with no extra weight gain.    A bit different for steam locos.  I used to have the formula for calculating the tractive effort for any given steam loco but it's somewhere in a parallel universe that is my filing system!

 

I agree that adding weight above the driving wheels in our models is a good way of gaining extra traction, as is selecting the right gear ratios.  Unforunately our models don't have sanding to help with adhesion but IHB that using magnets is the wrong solution. 

 

Just my opinion, I know others feel differently about it.  That's the great thing about this hobby, many opinions and solutions to a problem!

 

Regards,

 

Roja

[5BarVT]

Nothing photogenic has been happening, but lots of track support zone (baseboard) design has been happening.  It reached its conclusion yesterday when an order for 8 sheets of 6mm ply and 4 sheets of 3.6mm was sent off to my favourite timber merchants.  Delivery is scheduled for the end of the first week of 2021.  Square baseboard tops and backscene boards will be cut to size but sides, supports, bracing etc will come in 2440mm lengths to be attacked in my new mitre saw jig and corner boards will require trimming to shape.

I’ll be busy once that lot arrives: good job I’m on leave for six weeks in Jan/Feb!

Paul.

[great central]

In my opinion, all that's needed to make Lima models perform quite well is sufficient weight adding. The motors are simple and robust, I have pairs of class 76s powered by a single Lima power bogie hauling 20-24 older type HAA wagons, they can move smoothly away from a stand with no slipping.

My weighted 87s can handle 9 mk3s and DVT on quite a stiff gradient, possibly 1 in 20 or so with a reverse curve of less than 3ft radius at the top.

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

track support zone

Have you become a consultant in your old age?

[5BarVT]

On 12/12/2020 at 22:49, St Enodoc said:

Have you become a consultant in your old age?

I’ve been a consultant for the past 20 years, 2000 to 2005 with what has now become Ricardo Rail and the last 15 paid by the trainset owner but effectively an internal consultant.  (See also next post.)

Paul.

[5BarVT]

WORLD CLASS RETIREMENT ENGINEERING

 

I’m hanging up my 12” scale boots and I thought some of you might be amused by my explanation of what I’m going to be doing.  I’m waiting to see how many of my colleagues see through the euphemisms.  I’ll put up a translation and photos in a while, but it will be a couple of months yet.

 

“I also have an opportunity to be the Chief Signal Engineer for vertically integrated narrow gauge electric railway which is both infrastructure manager and railway undertaking, although on a very much smaller scale.  I have been looking at control systems and one in particular which uses IP technology for data from the control centre to the interlocking and a proprietary data transmission system to the four types of trackside modules (points, general i/o, train detection and signal drive).  Since it is such a small operation I’m going to have to become familiar with track support zones, track design, electrical standards, and operational compatibility.  I understand that I will be doing the configuration of the onboard systems.”

 

Enjoy.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

23 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

WORLD CLASS RETIREMENT ENGINEERING

 

I’m hanging up my 12” scale boots and I thought some of you might be amused by my explanation of what I’m going to be doing.  I’m waiting to see how many of my colleagues see through the euphemisms.  I’ll put up a translation and photos in a while, but it will be a couple of months yet.

 

“I also have an opportunity to be the Chief Signal Engineer for vertically integrated narrow gauge electric railway which is both infrastructure manager and railway undertaking, although on a very much smaller scale.  I have been looking at control systems and one in particular which uses IP technology for data from the control centre to the interlocking and a proprietary data transmission system to the four types of trackside modules (points, general i/o, train detection and signal drive).  Since it is such a small operation I’m going to have to become familiar with track support zones, track design, electrical standards, and operational compatibility.  I understand that I will be doing the configuration of the onboard systems.”

 

Enjoy.

Paul.

Nicely put!

[St. Simon]

50 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

WORLD CLASS RETIREMENT ENGINEERING

 

I’m hanging up my 12” scale boots and I thought some of you might be amused by my explanation of what I’m going to be doing.  I’m waiting to see how many of my colleagues see through the euphemisms.  I’ll put up a translation and photos in a while, but it will be a couple of months yet.

 

“I also have an opportunity to be the Chief Signal Engineer for vertically integrated narrow gauge electric railway which is both infrastructure manager and railway undertaking, although on a very much smaller scale.  I have been looking at control systems and one in particular which uses IP technology for data from the control centre to the interlocking and a proprietary data transmission system to the four types of trackside modules (points, general i/o, train detection and signal drive).  Since it is such a small operation I’m going to have to become familiar with track support zones, track design, electrical standards, and operational compatibility.  I understand that I will be doing the configuration of the onboard systems.”

 

Enjoy.

Paul.

I like that Paul, I shall use that in the future!

 

I hope you enjoy retirement (but do keep in touch!)

 

Simon

[5BarVT]

New Year Progress Update

Happy New Year to you all.  Here's hoping that vaccination brings some respite from the separation.  Perhaps an exhibition or two!

Very little physical progress and certainly not worth photographing.  I have started construction of new track circuit interface boards for the extended layout.  But I have been busy digitally: here is a picture of my WIP control 'panel' made out to represent a signalling lever frame (not dissimilar to the Westinghouse L Frame).

 

Diagram at the top, printed on slightly yellowed paper and in its wooden frame, the only active parts being the track occupancy roundels.  Indication below F(ree), N(ormal)and R(everse) for points; White (Free) Red/Yellow (On) and Green (Off) for signals.  Next row is Call-on plungers (to override the track circuit lock) thus saving a lever [based on Paddington Arrival and Bristol and thus not really an L Frame style].  Below that (dark roundels) are what will be inputs from my lever switches and will be made invisible then; for the time being they can be operated digitally. Finally at the bottom is a representation of the lever colours and then the lever leads.

The grey flags are the bits that are not finished - it would be a 10 minute job to import the custom pictures, but I am using the picture to signify having done the interlocking logic too and that's what takes the time.  (For those that are interested, it's in the free indications and the off indications.)

Paul.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

New Year Progress Update

Happy New Year to you all.  Here's hoping that vaccination brings some respite from the separation.  Perhaps an exhibition or two!

Very little physical progress and certainly not worth photographing.  I have started construction of new track circuit interface boards for the extended layout.  But I have been busy digitally: here is a picture of my WIP control 'panel' made out to represent a signalling lever frame (not dissimilar to the Westinghouse L Frame).

Diagram at the top, printed on slightly yellowed paper and in its wooden frame, the only active parts being the track occupancy roundels.  Indication below F(ree), N(ormal)and R(everse) for points; White (Free) Red/Yellow (On) and Green (Off) for signals.  Next row is Call-on plungers (to override the track circuit lock) thus saving a lever [based on Paddington Arrival and Bristol and thus not really an L Frame style].  Below that (dark roundels) are what will be inputs from my lever switches and will be made invisible then; for the time being they can be operated digitally. Finally at the bottom is a representation of the lever colours and then the lever leads.

The grey flags are the bits that are not finished - it would be a 10 minute job to import the custom pictures, but I am using the picture to signify having done the interlocking logic too and that's what takes the time.  (For those that are interested, it's in the free indications and the off indications.)

Paul.

 

Looks pretty, I hope one day I will see it for real so you can explain it to me.

 

Happy new year.

[5BarVT]

The build begins . . .

Plywood delivered two weeks ago tomorrow, checked off and left to acclimatise in the room.  These are the 2440mm (8') lengths that need cutting to size.  The main board tops and backscenes were cut to size by the timber yard.  I asked for the left over pieces to be sent too and I am most impressed that they cut a number of them to the same width as those ordered.  I got it all delivered as there was rather a lot, but for anyone in the London area I would recommend SL Hardwoods in Croydon if you want good quality wood cut accurately to size.

 

 

And the first set of small parts 'ready' for use.

 

 

As ever, the plan has not survived first contact with the enemy and now that I'm the Construction Engineer rather than (just) Designer some bits are getting changed.  This is where the spare lengths of similar sized pieces is very welcome.  And as it’s Engineers Contingency (i.e. already bought) rather than PM Contingency, it doesn't cost anything to use!

Paul.

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[5BarVT]

Building . . .

 

 

Kit 1 of 23

 

 

Boards 1 and 2 ready for paint (when it warms up in the garage).  They will be the last to have track laid so will just be expensive shelves for the time being.  There are three lifting flaps which all 'just' clear the one above, so I need to construct them and their hinge boards together so that actual fit can be confirmed.

 

Paul.

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.

[5BarVT]

More progress on the track support zone.  I've done enough to be confident that the intermediate lifting flap will fit in, possibly either way round.

Firstly, for Clive:

 

 

And now for everyone else:

 

 

Paul.

Edited April 2, 2022 by 5BarVT
Photo reload.