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Hornby Drysyllwyn Castle erratic running


scratcher
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I bought a new Hornby Drysllwyn Castle in February. I was using it to haul various rakes on a continuous loop so it got a good run out each time. In early May I noticed that it was slowing up for no apparent reason, after running for a while. Removed the coaches and it still did it. It was ok at slow speeds but once it got up a bit of speed it started to happen. Both directions. It's not jerky, it just slows up, and most of the time will eventually pick up speed again. Wheels were clean, but cleaned them anyway. Pickups looked to be in correct places. Took off the plastic chassis keeper plate couldn't see anything amiss. Took off front bogie, not that. Removed body and took off the weight over the gear train, and all looked ok there (the whole thing is effectively sealed so no chance for anything foreign to get in anyway).


 


Didn't happen with other locos, so concluded was very unlikely to be the track/electrics/controller. The latter is an old H&M Duette - tried on both outputs.


 


I was completely stumped and in the end sent the loco back and got a replacement. New loco arrived and I ran it in carefully. All seemed well. Until the other day, when it started doing the exact same thing as the first one. 


 


Has anybody experienced anything similar? 


 


I am starting to wonder if there is something about the output of the H&M that this particular loco does not like. I also have the Hornby King which looks like it has the same motor, and it runs perfectly.


 


Steve


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I wonder if the controller has somehow damaged the supression components. You could try disconnecting temporarily to see if they could be responsible.

Another way if you have a continuous run loop would be to connect a 9v battery across the rails in lieu of the controller and see what happens then after smooth battery power has been on for a while. At 9v it will run at a reasonable pace.

At least it would point you more in one direction or another for the culprit - loco or controller.

Rob

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I wonder if the controller has somehow damaged the supression components. You could try disconnecting temporarily to see if they could be responsible.

Another way if you have a continuous run loop would be to connect a 9v battery across the rails in lieu of the controller and see what happens then after smooth battery power has been on for a while. At 9v it will run at a reasonable pace.

At least it would point you more in one direction or another for the culprit - loco or controller.

Rob

 

You could well be right. I suspect the old Duette is damaging something. Could be excessive voltage spikes causing insulation breakdown in the motor windings. Older/different motors might be more tolerant.

 

The safest thing might be to dump the old H&M and get a controller with much better voltage regulation.

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Thanks for suggestions.

 

If it is the controller, it's odd that I've not seen this before with any other loco, including several new-ish Hornby & Bachmann RTR plus a new Mashima in an LNER A5 tank I have just finished. 

 

I've alerted the retailer that it might be on its way back, but I'll give Hornby technical line a call and try a different controller first.  

 

Steve

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Allow me to suggest a very different possibility.

 

Short out the loco plug and try the loco without the tender on a similar length of run. I have seen more Hornby tenders going draggy after some running time has elapsed than I could quickly count. The variable drag occurs first, and then it becomes permanent on the worst affected, which have near stopped the loco. Happens on some and not others...

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I don't like Duettes but if the King behaves it doesn't look like it is the controller.  The draggy pickups on Hornby tenders is an issue, I just rip them off and rewire the loco as necessary as my 10XX county hauled 6 instead of 4 coaches up my 1 in 30 ish after removing the pickups.

Otherwise is the motor over heating slogging with a heavy train?  These modern locos are really intended for display cabinets or 3 coach trains.  Pecorama were running the Hornby Grange with only 3 coaches last time I was there and they know a thing or two.

Edited by DavidCBroad
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I'm away for a few weeks now, but will try the suggestions above when I get back. Thanks.  

 

My King hauls a 10 coach rake including a brass slip coach and has no problem with that.  I was using the first Castle to haul the same when it first started mis-behaving, so I did wonder if it was overhearing. So with the second Castle, I reduced the load from the start and it has hauled no more than 4 coaches plus a horse box. 

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  • 1 month later...

Looked at this again since I got back and tried some of the suggestions above.

 

Detached the tender and blanked the connecting plug so the loco ran on its own.  Made no difference, the loco still ran erratically.

 

Wired a 9V PP3 battery across the track instead of the controller. The loco ran normally. Added back the tender and a 4 coach load. Continued to run normally.

 

So it looks like there is something about the output from the Duette that the electrics on this particular loco do not like. 

 

It is puzzling, and a shame, as I have 15 other locos dating from 1982 to present day (mixture of Hornby, Bachmann and kits) and they are all fine.

 

I do eventually want to go DCC but the age of some of my locos means that is not a trivial undertaking, so I will stick analogue for now.  Any recommendations for a twin controller?

 

Thanks again for your help. 

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You could try hooking a multi-meter across the controller terminals and try to see what is happening to the track voltage when the errant loco misbehaves. Look also to see if there is similar indication with non errant locos as it may be a power fault but that some locos are more tolerant than the Castle.

 

Rob

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The earlier H&M Clipper and Duette productions are 50-ish now, and the original rectifiers used aren't possessed of eternal life. If the model draws a  little more current than your other models it may just be enough to get the rectifier overheating with consequent reduction in current supply. If you follow the suggestion to put a meter on the output and see the current dropping as the loco slows, that'll be the likely source of the trouble.

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Strange that it ran okay with a 9V battery - dry cell batteries have very limited ability to provide current - which begs the question about current draw because a Duette in good condition should be capable of supplying more current than a 9V battery.  There is not much in a Duette apart from a thermal cut out, a bridge rectifier, a diode and a wire wound variable resistor and a capacitor for each controller.  A faulty thermal cutout could increase the resistance in the circuit as it gets warm which would explain why the loco slows down after a period of operating

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I used a meter today to measure the current drawn by the Castle. When running normally, it drew a consistent 1.3-1.5 amps irrespective of speed. When it had a slow-down the current shot up to anywhere between 2.5 and 4.0 amps, depending on the original speed. I then tried measuring the voltage but the engine started to behave itself; it had a brief slow-down once and the voltage which was 6.x dropped down to 5.x.  I will try again and see if I can observe a reliable voltage change.

 

When behaving, the engine draws almost the same current as my Hornby King. New Bachmann and Mashita motors seem to draw a bit less, closer to 1 amp. An older Bachmann (43xx) drew nearer 2 amps. None of these have ever exhibited the behaviour of the Castle. 

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I used a meter today to measure the current drawn by the Castle. When running normally, it drew a consistent 1.3-1.5 amps irrespective of speed. When it had a slow-down the current shot up to anywhere between 2.5 and 4.0 amps, depending on the original speed. I then tried measuring the voltage but the engine started to behave itself; it had a brief slow-down once and the voltage which was 6.x dropped down to 5.x.  I will try again and see if I can observe a reliable voltage change.

 

When behaving, the engine draws almost the same current as my Hornby King. New Bachmann and Mashita motors seem to draw a bit less, closer to 1 amp. An older Bachmann (43xx) drew nearer 2 amps. None of these have ever exhibited the behaviour of the Castle. 

The Meter readings sound very high esp that Bachmann which I would have thought would have emitted smoke before curling up and dying at 2 amps.

Duettes and clippers are in my opinion rubbish. The rectifiers are state or the Ark and the resistance mats have what looks like asbestos in them. I would change to modern rectifiers and just use the 12 V and 16 V uncontrolled outputs   The Safety Minor is the good H&M as it is an autotransformer a variable Transformer which gives pretty much constant voltage irrespective of load . However if it runs well on smooth 9V DC it does sound like insulation breaking down  somewhere, maybe the armature or a faulty suppressor..  I think the retailer will be looking to repair the loco this time rather than exchange it as he will be suspecting its your transformer not the loco

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Bought a new Gaugemaster D and tried the Castle with that. It still exhibits the erratic running, with the same current draw behaviour. All my other locos are fine. So it's got to be something to do with the loco. Either faulty from the start or using it with the H&M caused a permanent problem. 

 

Meter readings from Gaugemaster about the same as the H&M.  A 1980's Hornby tender-drive LNER B17 drew consistently over 2 amps but behaved fine with great slow speed control.

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  • 1 month later...

Update. Have received a replacement and it's been running fine with the Gaugemaster D for a couple of weeks.  I reckon the original problem was some component in the loco being sensitive to whatever the H&M was sending out, and becoming damaged. 

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  • 3 years later...

Update. It's three and a half years on, and the Castle which had been running perfectly for all that period is now showing the same intermittent slowing down problem. I've been using it mainly on a 7 vehicle  parcels train which includes a couple of brass coaches, and it's fairly close to its limit. I added an 8th brass vehicle (70' and quite heavy) and that's when it started misbehaving. Lightening the load does not cure things; the damage has been done.  😭

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On 01/09/2018 at 14:33, scratcher said:

Meter readings from Gaugemaster about the same as the H&M.  A 1980's Hornby tender-drive LNER B17 drew consistently over 2 amps but behaved fine with great slow speed control.

There's definitely something wrong with the current measurement here. Gaugemaster use thermal cutouts in their mains powered controllers. They list the part on their website - GM41 1 amp rating. So a Model D would not sustain over 2 amps for very long, maybe 3-5 seconds maximum before the power is tripped.

 

Also having fitted countless decoders to locos from the 1960s right up to current manufacture with "coreless" motors I test them first to see the current under load and with the mechanism stalled. Very rarely do I see over 1/2 amp being drawn from steam locos. Most locos running engine only will draw around 100mA - 10th of an amp. 4 amps going through a motor would cook the windings very quickly.

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On 06/05/2022 at 21:27, Tim123 said:

There's definitely something wrong with the current measurement here. Gaugemaster use thermal cutouts in their mains powered controllers. They list the part on their website - GM41 1 amp rating. So a Model D would not sustain over 2 amps for very long, maybe 3-5 seconds maximum before the power is tripped.

That's what I was thinking three and a half years ago..  Is it the same meter?  I must have got through three digital multimeters in that time, but still have the same analogue multimeter meter from 10 plus years ago and still use a heavy duty  Amp / Volt meter I bought S/H 37 years ago for working on the car.

The Modus Operandi might have something to do with this failure. My lima class 37s used to spend a lot of time at low speed slogging uphill on 6 coach trains, up 1 in 14 grades.  They suffered burned commutators which slowed them and which needed frequent attention, cleaning, and armature replacement.  My 1958 H/D Castles rapidly overheat and slow down to a crawl or stop at low speed with heavy trains but are generally fine running fast.    I suspect your parcels train is just too much for the loco,  I think our current model Castle hauls 7 Bachmann Mk1s up our 1 in 35 ish grades un assisted so she probably has a limit of around 12 on the level, which is around 8 metal coaches, which is ballpark what the OP is saying.
I think the OP is overloading the motor, has burned the commutator and possibly somewhat de magnetised the magnet.   I would give it a bloody good thrash light engine, which will polish up the commutator and stick it on eBay.   

Going forward when you get the new replacement Castle.. Can you lighten the Train?  We took most of the weights out of Hornby Hawkesworths and the gubbins out of H/D mail coaches to help get 7 coach rakes up our hill. Reduce drag? clean the wheels, make sure the coaches actually run down a 1 in 75 grade, change to pin point bearings if they have plain ends etc 

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  • 4 weeks later...

It's possible I was mis-reading the meter, probably I was reading 2A when it was 200mA.  I did give it a good thrash light engine, which I thought had cured the problem as it then seemed to behave ok, but problem came back. What I can't work out is why a Hornby King with what appears to be the exact same motor doesn't misbehave running longer & heavier trains. 

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  • 1 month later...

I enquired about the X6152 motor and got this reply from a spares stockist. "You need X6152 (your R number was'nt on the service sheet but this is the newest motor I know of (maybe open the loco up to see if it looks the same) from our website or ebay store. We don’t know of alternatives."  I ordered one anyway and fitted it a few days ago. Interestingly the new motor has the same dimensions and has the same worm gear, but is not exactly the same. I had to file down the lugs on the mount point that engage with the plastic case on the rear of the motor to get it to fit, but with that small mod it dropped in and it works fine.  I've given it a good run with a medium weight load and it behaved itself. So far so good.

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On 08/05/2022 at 15:02, DCB said:

Can you lighten the Train?  We took most of the weights out of Hornby Hawksworths and the gubbins out of H/D mail coaches to help get 7 coach rakes up our hill. Reduce drag? clean the wheels, make sure the coaches actually run down a 1 in 75 grade, change to pin point bearings if they have plain ends etc 

 

I've removed weight where possible, everything is clean, pickup drag reduced, coaches run cleanly. Not sure there is too much else I can do on that front.

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