Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Martin S-C]

During construction I shall endeavour to move that turnout leftwards as far as curve radii permit. But even where it is I foresee plenty of room for the branch train to fit to it's right.

So, signals mounted atop a platform mounted signal cabin would suggest no interlocking and the signalman would release them when it was desirable to call a train forwards? Am I warm? I confess to signalling being my weak suit and Victorian practice being very obscure, although I'm very interested in including something unusual, fun, archaic and... different.

 

How do "stop and call forward" signals function? Also, apologies for the signalling 101 course, I am amazed how much I have failed to learn after 40 years of playing with toy trains.

[Nearholmer]

Well, this is how I think it would work:

 

Simple passing loop first. The two lollipops are ‘stop until called’ markers (not signals as such) the one post carries two arms, one giving entry to each section ahead. Once called forward, the train stops in the loop, not ‘behind’ the signal post, just in the loop. When the section ahead is clear, the driver is given a train order, or staff or ticket and the arm is lowered. The falling forward is done by flag/lamp, although the stop marks progressed to become what we now know as ‘homes’, and the section signals ‘starters’ in Britain at least - some US and continental practice remained very similar to very early British practice.

 

Attempting to apply this to your junction, I get what is shown. So, how does the driver know the signal has been pulled off for his train? Because he has an order, staff, ticket etc.

 

Scope for confusion? Oh, yes! Which led to accidents and changes in practice.

 

Interlocking? Not much, if any; as above.

 

What do you think?

Edited August 6, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Martin S-C]

I think its really funky! And very odd. So using my track layout, a train comes off the branch (from upper right in your top diagram). It reaches the lollipop and halts. When the signalman is ready to receive it into the platform he simply waves it in, yes? The train then draws past the signal hut with its three arms on the roof (at danger) and halts in the platform. If it is now to continue along the main (out of frame to the left), the signal man now lowers the lower small (branch) arm behind the driver, who then toots an acknowledgement and draws away. I assume that as the train rolls by the signal cabin at walking pace the driver hands over to the bobby his ticket from the branch and collects one from the main. He still can't enter the main until his road is set and the bobby lowers the arm.

 

Have I got that about right?

 

If the train is terminating at the junction, the loco uncouples and presumably the bobby lowers the arm to allow the loco forward onto the main in order to run around its train.

Remember I'm modelling "fantasy" but set around the time of The Great War, so presumably these practices were well out of period - and law! - by then.

I do of course have my short branch modelled in its entirety - junction (this one), two small through stations and a terminus. This was built as a light railway in the 1870s so I could have the old fashioned signals along there, with something more modern like arm-in-slot or crossbar and disc along the main line.

I recall seeing the working crossbars and discs on Mike Sharman's layout and fell in love with them. There was still one on the Churchway Branch, Forest of Dean until WWII. It protected a crossing of Brain's horse-drawn tramway (which had been disused since 1925).

[Nearholmer]

Each arm applies to a section ahead, not the platform in which a train is standing - it gives authority to enter that section, irrespective of which road the train is to enter it from. So, a train can depart when the driver has a train order, ticket, staff or WHY giving authority, and the relevant signal is cleared.

 

The ‘block working’ at this stage might not be ‘full and proper’ block telegraph; it could be a less formulaic system such as free-text train orders.

 

I think this little lot would be considered outdated by the 1870s, and it would need a bit of tidying-up, interlocking and formulaic block telegraphy at least, to comply with the 1889 regulations. But, on a railway operating to the Light Railway Act 1896 the basics of it wouldn’t be illegal, even today. If you look at old photos of the KESR, you will see that it used signalling rather like this. And, a ‘backwater’ ordinary (not light) railway might have got away with an interlocked version of this until your date, maybe.

[Martin S-C]

Thanks, Kevin, it all sounds very interesting and - mainly - unusual. I shall give this a try. My only concern is I have 4 stations on a fairly short run and already there will be a lot of stopping and starting on each end to end journey. The stop boards require another stop so a significant part of the journey will be trains held stationary or creeping along at about 10mph. I doubt I'll ever have anything exceeding a scale 25mph at any point but all the stop-starting is a bit of a concern.

I may use this system along the branch and go for something more conventional on the main line.

[runs as required]

Just caught my eye this as I rolled past: I promise you signalling can consume you when trying to as you are to model the whole.

On the other hand the choreography of Classic pre- grouping absolute block is compulsively fascinating.

I suggest you could have one station to station sequence capable of being operated on absolute block when you feel in the mood (and have someone to play the sequences with) - otherwise it is switched out.

Thanks to the support of a signal engineer, I set up a paper signal block on a table tennis table and played the sequences with son (and his son) who had memories of his step-grandfather taking him to Peak Forest box when young.

dh

[Northroader]

Way back, the LMS set up a School of Transport on London Road, Derby, and it was inherited by BR. When I first knew it, the main hall had a huge oval model railway around it, with a gallery along the outside. Later on it had disappeared, and the sunken centre of the hall was just a pleasant lounge area. Then it was sold off, god knows what it’s used for now. The model railway was a large coarse scale line, divided up into stations, and each one had a signal box, fully interlocked mechanical signals, linked to each other by block instruments. A gang of us callow youths had three or so adjacent boxes to work, having to carry out all the rigmarole of call attention, offering trains, line clear , pull off the signals, train entering section, etc., etc., The train was just Hornby loco and two coaches, geared right down to progress at snails pace. By the time it was passing the second section, the bell codes and so on were hopelessly behind what was happening. It’s fascinating, but terribly long winded for a short line.

[DonB]

When I last went to York NRM, about 6 years ago, they had an oval coarse O-gauge (?) layout in a room alongside the main loco display hall. The Saturday that we went, there was crew of about 5 people demonstrating the signalling principles . 

Was that the one previously at Derby ? and is it still there, together with demonstration staff? If so, do the NRM publicise these events? 

[Northroader]

I haven’t seen what York’s got, it is quite possible, it would be a shame if the Derby one was junked, although I would expect the York one would be a smaller version, the Derby job was extensive (= bl***y huge)

[Nearholmer]

London Underground now has a 'training model railway" again, after a period without one, IIRC using LGB track and mechanisms. The old one was, I think  0, supplied by Bassett Lowke, and my former chief had one of the stations from it as a bookshelf ornament in his office. The Longmoor Military had one too, also BL, and that was operated by half a dozen of their standard (i.e. freelance/generic) 0-6-0T, specially geared to go very slowly, in LMR blue livery. I was offered one of the locos, all of which survive, a few years back, but stupidly said 'no', because the asking price was a bit more than for a run of the mill standard tank.

[St Enodoc]

Way back, the LMS set up a School of Transport on London Road, Derby, and it was inherited by BR. When I first knew it, the main hall had a huge oval model railway around it, with a gallery along the outside. Later on it had disappeared, and the sunken centre of the hall was just a pleasant lounge area. Then it was sold off, god knows what it’s used for now. The model railway was a large coarse scale line, divided up into stations, and each one had a signal box, fully interlocked mechanical signals, linked to each other by block instruments. A gang of us callow youths had three or so adjacent boxes to work, having to carry out all the rigmarole of call attention, offering trains, line clear , pull off the signals, train entering section, etc., etc., The train was just Hornby loco and two coaches, geared right down to progress at snails pace. By the time it was passing the second section, the bell codes and so on were hopelessly behind what was happening. It’s fascinating, but terribly long winded for a short line.

The layout had gone by my first visit in 1974. I've no idea what happened to it. The School of Transport, however, survives as a commercially-run conference centre. From what I can see they have retained a lot of the legacy features, including the sunken lounge (but probably not the linen napkins in silver rings that were allocated to you for a whole week).

 

http://thederbyconferencecentre.com/

[St Enodoc]

When I last went to York NRM, about 6 years ago, they had an oval coarse O-gauge (?) layout in a room alongside the main loco display hall. The Saturday that we went, there was crew of about 5 people demonstrating the signalling principles . 

Was that the one previously at Derby ? and is it still there, together with demonstration staff? If so, do the NRM publicise these events? 

 

I haven’t seen what York’s got, it is quite possible, it would be a shame if the Derby one was junked, although I would expect the York one would be a smaller version, the Derby job was extensive (= bl***y huge)

That's a different one:

 

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/whats-on/signalling-demo

[St Enodoc]

London Underground now has a 'training model railway" again, after a period without one, IIRC using LGB track and mechanisms. The old one was, I think  0, supplied by Bassett Lowke, and my former chief had one of the stations from it as a bookshelf ornament in his office. The Longmoor Military had one too, also BL, and that was operated by half a dozen of their standard (i.e. freelance/generic) 0-6-0T, specially geared to go very slowly, in LMR blue livery. I was offered one of the locos, all of which survive, a few years back, but stupidly said 'no', because the asking price was a bit more than for a run of the mill standard tank.

Singapore MRT has one too, at Bishan depot. It features "representative" (i.e. coarse scale) EMUs and bears small plaques proclaiming proudly that it was supplied by Bassett-Lowke. It would have been built in the early/mid 1980s..

[Martin S-C]

My builder was supposed to come for the site visit yesterday at 10:00 but at 09:00 he rang me to say he couldn't make it as another job had run over. He's now coming next Monday, the 13th. I do hate how these dratted things always seem to drag on.

Meanwhile here are the other station plans with my attempt at "correct" signal positions. While I love the quirkiness of the stop/call forward system I think I will employ that along the branch where it seems more appropriate. Full thanks to you, Kevin for explaining it all to me, as a system for putting on a model railway it's awesome. I would just prefer something less stoppy-starty along the main line.

 

 

Borrocks:

1] Down home. A 3-arm junction to control entry into platforms 2/3 and 4 and the goods loop.
2] Up home which also protects the colliery exit. A 2-arm junction to control entry into platform 1 and the goods loop.
3] Up home from the MVR Exchange Sidings. This gives access only into Platform 4.
4] Down starter for platforms 2/3 and 4. A junction arm will control whether a train leaving platform 2/3 will go down the main or swing left to the Exchange line. I may need a shunt or goods signal here as well to control trains entering the colliery.
5] Um... a mistake. I don't think I need this!
6] Up starter from platform 4.
7] Up starter from platform 1.
8] Signal controlling exit from colliery.
9] Down starter from goods loop. Also signal to control shunt moves from the goods loop into the colliery.
10] Up starter from goods loop.

BTW platform 2/3 is for down trains, platform 1 for up. Platform 4 is bi-directional.

I think I may need 2 signal cabins here with the second one opposite signal '10' with a good view into the tunnel entrance.

 

 

Great Shafting:

Nice and simple!

1] Home signal.
2] Starters for bay and main platform (2 arms)
3] Starter for freights leaving the yard. This should be a bit further up and to the left of the turnout whose blades it is right beside.
4] Shunt signal for movements out of the canal wharf/industrial area (I realise now this should be up a bit, before the crossover and immediately to the right of the red circle marked '3').

The signal cabin probably needs to be sited a bit closer to signal '4' but where the signalman can still see into the tunnel entrance.

 

I drew these up all at the same time, so the branch shows conventional signals. I'll have a go at changing these to the stop/call forward system. There may well be 2 engines in steam on the branch with a passenger or freight serving the terminus while another train travels only part way to serve the quarry or wood distillation plant. BTW, if it wasn't obvious the branch connects at A-A and B-B.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Martin S-C]

Whilst waiting for the builders to arrive everything has gone to sheet.

 

The pre-grouping ones are David Smith sheets suitably crumpled prior to fitting and then drybrushed with various shades of grey. The fictional ones are plain paper and crumpled/painted/POWsides dryfix transfers added. I left some uncrumpled and gave others different levels of folding or rolling to try and suggest different ages or levels of abuse. Note that all are removable in line with my (shameless playing with trains) ethic that all open wagon loads should be removable so I can pretend that goods are being delivered to stations or industries and empty wagons are leaving. The paper sheets are reinforced with balsa blocks in most cases and metal weights in others and just sit over the wagon sides like a hat. This is why I haven't depicted any lines or ropes securing them down. I thought long and hard (well, long and hard for me) about trying to show lines on sheets that had to be removable but nothing practical entered my small brain that wouldn't end up being very fragile and/or fiddly.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Martin S-C

[lezz01]

They look very good Martin.

Regards Lez.Z.

[Nearholmer]

Could we have a more detailed recipe for the 'scratch built' ones, please. I'd like to copy.

[Martin S-C]

The discussion started in this thread. I jumped in and had a go because chuffinghell was doing some interesting things and I thought I'd try. My input begins at post #28 and then post #40 however Mikkel (as usual!) shows some better quality wagon sheets in post #12 on page 1, though his process involves a fair bit more work than mine - and it shows in the results!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136093-wagon-tarpaulins-the-easy-way/page-2

I was actually just showcasing the sheets here as well since they are layout related but there's little to say about my layout right now!

 

My home made markings use POWsides dry-rub transfers (just basic sans-serif alphabets and numerals) with the white X and diamond markings using BR era diagonal white line transfers - the ones used to indicate the end-door on steel mineral wagons. These were from Fox.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Martin S-C]

A very nice gentleman has just visited and we had a productive talk about asbestos roofs, battens, plasterboard, second hand concrete panels, insulating materials, electricity installation, windows and a host of related subjects.

Estimate is around the £8000 mark but he'll send a detailed one in writing. I accepted the verbal quote and he will book the job in to start mid-October and last ~6 weeks. So railway modelling proper will commence in December!

Hurrah and huzzah.

As to the idea of a raised floor with ground-level step-downs to help with the height at the duck-unders, this is only going to be about 3" unfortunately because the height from concrete to the steel roof frames is 80 inches and we'll lose 1 inch of false ceiling boarding. 3 inches of raised floor gives me a head clearance of only 6 feet 4 inches which is fine for a shorty pants like me at 5 foot 7 but any very tall visitors might have to stoop which is a no-no. As it is you'll get away with full height standing as long as you're no taller than 6 ft 3 ins.

I am going to set baseboard datum quite high at 46" with the highest point of the boards being 54" (compared to my eye level height of 64"). If the boards have side bracing (say) 3" deep a 46" clearance for the duck-unders is preserved with the step-downs at those two locations.

 

Sadly I lose the nice concept of the below floorboards wine cellar. I shall just have to provide a fridge for those necessities.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Northroader]

Good to hear you’re happy with what you been told and can progress the job. Good luck with it all.

[south_tyne]

All sounds very positive Martin (well apart from the impact on your wallet!). You'll be getting an absolutely fantastic space to work in though and it is definitely worth the investment at this stage, both financial and in terms of time, as you will only benefit in the long run.

 

Exciting times!!

[Martin S-C]

Thanks. I was very pleased with the builders attitude. I was clear to him that I wanted a "practical space that would be dry and able to be temperature and humidity controlled - something basic that does the job I need and no need to go for design or architectural awards". He was completely with me on the hobby room concept and understood my need for the two shallow cut outs in the raised floor to assist the duck-under issue. He also responded quickly and positively to my preference to reduce the width of the space as little as practical. He suggested quite narrow battens and plasterboard covering that would only lose me about 2 ins on each wall, giving me a 7 ft 8 ins width (my plan was based on getting 7 ft 6 ins, so that's promising). He has on his site a store of second hand concrete panels of exactly the type my garage is made from, so he can re-use those to close off the double doors end, saving a few £££s.

I'm feeling very fortunate that I have bumped into a guy who seems completely switched on to his customers needs.

The price is a little higher than I'd hoped for but I think I can trim the electrics back a bit and save a few hundred there. I do at least have the luxury of being able to budget for all this, a planned (if big) chunk out of the funds set aside for the project.
 

I'm feeling very buoyed up about the whole deal now that today's meeting went so well. Can't wait for things to start happening.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Nearholmer]

You are going to include plenty of insulation aren’t you?

 

Makes an immense difference to usability.

[Martin S-C]

I am going to stuff in whatever can be stuffed in. There is a pretty big ceiling void and he can fill that - most heat loss goes that way of course. The new side door and 2 windows will be double glazed and he'll use foam to fill all the gaps under the eaves. Walls will have the minimum because of space considerations, but the budget includes an air con/heater unit to keep temperatures within habitable limits, and keep moisture down. In very cold weather I intend to have this running at a trickle setting to keep the air moving and slightly warm. Vents will go in as part of the windows.

Apart from space left after the walls have been internally clad, temperature ranges are my biggest concern. The guy has been in the business 35 years and runs a medium sized company with about 30 employees so I am confident he knows what's what.

 

...but...yeah... the last thing I want is to spend this much money and still end up with a cold damp shed.

[south_tyne]

I know it's not my money (so easy to say) but spending a few hundred pounds extra at the outset to get exactly the specification you want and make sure it is a comfortable, dry, warm, safe and stable environment will be worth it in the long run. You never know, you might still be building/playing with a layout in there in 30 years time!