'Correct' ratios of locos to stock

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...To operate any layout with some degree of realism (and surely that is what creating a model railway is all about), if you have 150 locos, then you should have around 1200 coaches and at least 5000 wagons, representing a reasonable prototype mix. I think from memory that it was the late, great, David Jenkinson who originally pointed this out - and he was right. Layouts look FAR better with an appropriate prototypical mix of locomotives and rolling stock...

 

I have some sympathy for the thought behind this, from whomsoever it may have originated. However it perhaps needs to be expressed in a more nuanced fashion.

 

I will borrow from staged entertainment here: the principal characters of the cast are the locomotives, some distinctive vehicles are supporting cast, most vehicles are the crowd scene extras. So there is no need to observe the true ratios of  locos : coaches : wagons, but instead only to present the illusion of an appropriate set of ratios within the modelled scene.

 

Thus the 82 locos in my present operation - not all of which are seen together at any time what with the dynamic of classes being withdrawn while others are introduced to service - may be adequately supported by far fewer than the arithmetically correct ratios: about 230 coaches, circa 900 wagons. Then for example a loaded mineral train may make multiple passes each time with a different loco up front, and some additions and subtractions of other vehicles, especially brake vans. The traction (once turned if required) and the brake vans then progressively transfer to the empties set for the balancing turn. And so on.

 

Thoughts, better methods, etc.?

[Rivercider]

I often think that 'less is more' when it concerns locos.

 

At exhibitions we can often see a branch terminus with two or three locos on shed, or stabled around the yard, (when one loco in steam would be the norm).

I can understand this though, especially if they are scratch built or kit built, when it is nice to have them on display.

 

In the modern era when I see a 'depot' well stocked with class 66 locos I often think Ed Burkhardt would be most unhappy, his locos should be out at work

 

cheers   

[10000]

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to look at this. 

 

Here's a possible.

 

I run 2 trains , 1up 1 down say like London - Edinburgh.

 

So we start with 2 sets of coaches and 2 locos. So on arrival into terminus I need 2 more locos for the return trips while the first 2 go on shed for coaling oiling etc.

 

Now we have  4 locos  and 2 sets of coaches. Really should have 1 spare at each end so were up to 6 and maybe a couple in works. making 8.

 

Oh dear,  that means I now need to stop buying A4's

[Ian J.]

IMO, you said it in your second paragraph - it's about creating the 'illusion' of a reality, not the actuality, using various methods probably mostly to keep costs down and entertainment interest up. Model railways are a distillation of reality, not reality itself.

 

Further, any modeller may want to represent change over time, so locos, coaches and wagons would vary in what's required.

 

So any talk of real ratios is, really, just hot air.

 

What one needs to think about is, 'am I modelling something approximating reality, and if so, what are my 'wheres' and 'whens', because what works for one place and time, doesn't necessarily work for a different place or time.' Each implementation has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

[Chris M]

A more important ratio when capturing the atmosphere of a location would be the ratio between express, local passenger, through freight and local pick up goods trains. This ratio of course changes according to period and location. But even then modellers licence is needed to ensure sufficient interest.

[Oldddudders]

So, why do we do all this? Each of us has different answer, so the OP’s calculations, based upon a former guru’s premise, may apply to some, but not others.

 

Two of my favourite RMweb threads espouse completely opposite approaches. A Nod To Brent showcases fine models in a very attractive scenic setting. If you want to see, e.g., a prairie on a B-set, Rob is your man. Ask, he will pose it and you will be chuffed. At the other end of the telescope, Peterborough North provides an accurate-as-can-be snapshot of a real WTT in 1958 at that station. Every train is formed exactly as data from the era shows it to have been, and they each parade through the superb stationscape GN has created. Gilbert spends months working one day’s WTT sequence.

 

Is either wrong in his approach? No! Each runs his model to suit himself and us. But they are quite different in their call on a reservoir of locos, coaches and wagons. If you like locos then make or buy them - ditto coaches, wagons and anything else that appeals. This is a hobby, not a strait-jacket.

[wagonman]

The original articles were by Don Rowlands and were referenced here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/5417-keeping-the-balance/

 

Obviously the balance between locos and stock would have varied with the location and era, but the point Don was making (in reference to the LMS in the 1930s) is that modellers had far too many express passenger engines and not enough workhorses like the ubiquitous 4F. Oh,and far too many 'funny' wagons and not enough open wagons.

 

In modern terms – and I have to declare at this point that I find the modern scene intensely boring – the situation is even more extreme. I recently spent a warm afternoon sitting by the riverside in Ely with a good view of the railway station approaches. There was the usual mixture of DMU and EMU on the local passenger services interspersed with a string of freight trains each one of which consisted of a class 66 and a seemingly endless string of container flates. So, to keep the balance one would (theoretically) need at least two sets of say 50 flats per loco as locos get turned around far faster than the rolling stock, even with modern handling equipment.

 

Yawn...

[Chrisr40]

I apply a ratio based around the availability of shelving in my layouts vicinity. Question - is there excess capacity on shelf ?, do i have any pennies ?, is there a loco that appeals to me ? If all are yes then the ratio is unbalanced and requires immediate attention.

[gwrrob]

 

 

Two of my favourite RMweb threads espouse completely opposite approaches. A Nod To Brent showcases fine models in a very attractive scenic setting. If you want to see, e.g., a prairie on a B-set, Rob is your man. Ask, he will pose it and you will be chuffed. At the other end of the telescope, Peterborough North provides an accurate-as-can-be snapshot of a real WTT in 1958 at that station. Every train is formed exactly as data from the era shows it to have been, and they each parade through the superb stationscape GN has created. Gilbert spends months working one day’s WTT sequence.

 

 

Thanks for your kind words Ian and flattery gets you everywhere.

 

 

[sp1]

Surely the correct ratio of locos to rolling stock is always one more than you actually have......

[jonny777]

I'm afraid I do not subscribe to the theory of this thread. 

 

If I have five or six rakes of coaching stock, but the fiddle yard represents the rest of the country; I can use many different locomotives to indicate that the originating stations had loco sheds with large allocations supplying their services.

 

For instance, Colwick provided the locos for the Grantham to Nottingham passenger service. I'm not sure exactly how many sets of coaches were used but in the early 1960s the depot had at least 20 L1s which were used on this and other local services.

 

A lot of spare locos gives a much more realistic impression than the same numbered engine just shuttling backwards and forwards, especially if the destination station is many miles away. 

Edited August 6, 2018 by jonny777

[Rivercider]

Surely the correct ratio of locos to rolling stock is always one more than you actually have......

Unless you are a rolling stock fan (less likely) in which case it is always 10 or 20 more wagons than you have

 

cheers

[Andy Hayter]

I often think that 'less is more' when it concerns locos.

 

At exhibitions we can often see a branch terminus with two or three locos on shed, or stabled around the yard, (when one loco in steam would be the norm).

I can understand this though, especially if they are scratch built or kit built, when it is nice to have them on display.

 

In the modern era when I see a 'depot' well stocked with class 66 locos I often think Ed Burkhardt would be most unhappy, his locos should be out at work

 

cheers   

 

You are absolutely right about too many locos on minor branch lines.  I think however there is more to it than just showing off nice loco models.  There is also a (perceived) need to always have something in motion to entertain the crowd.  I think this can be overdone in some cases, but in the case of the one engine in steam terminus, when the train departs in reality nothing happens - for hours.  Even speeding up time and taking the outbound train into one siding in the fiddle yard and getting a replacement ready takes more than a couple of seconds in most cases; and if you are lucky enough to have a set up that allows a rapid replacement train to arrive it can look very unrealistic.  Hence a second loco doing something on stage. 

[sigtech]

Posted Today, 21:21

I remember this series of articles.
- I used to have the magazines, though I thought they were in 'Model Railway News'?? and also earlier 1968/9..The cover illustration shot was of a group of models about 6/7 LMS (EX L&Y locos). 2x Aspinall 3f 0-6-0s,2x Aspinall 2-4-2 radial tanks ( 1 roundtop short boiler, the other belpaire firebox and extended bunker ) an Aspinall 3f 0-6-0st and a finally a Hughes? 7f 0-8-0 heavy goods loco. The premise was that the average modeller would then have had just 10 locos, of which, if he had a small loco depot on the layout then he should have 5 locos 'shedded' there, consisting of just two or three classes, i.e for the ex L&Y area this would be 2x 2-4-2 passenger tanks and 2 or 3 x 0-6-0 goods locos.-(one of which could be a tank engine). The remaining locos working through the layout would be 1x 'Black Five', 1x 2-6-4 tank, 1x '8f' 2-8-0 and 1x 2-6-0 (Hughes Crab). The idea being that this would represent a 'balanced locomotive stud' and be far more representative of the real railway than a stud of 8 pacifics and a couple of 0-6-0 shunting tanks. The nickname 'Smokey Bourne' comes to mind for some reason. I cannot remember much more about the article except the common theme was to have two or three of the same class of loco each for working the passenger and goods traffic rather than just 1 example of each class.
Regards
(SIGTECH)
Steve.

I'm not doing very well ... - think I've missread the title and then posted this reply on the old thread, - then had to copy and paste this here- oh dear!!!

Further to this - the title of this article I think was "A balanced loco stud for the layout".

My layout: 'SPROSTON',a BR (WR/LMR) branch terminus in 00, set circa 1956-1964,and built in the loft (please mind your head...)

http://www.rmweb.co....-sigtechs-blog/

Edited August 5, 2018 by sigtech

[brianusa]

We modellers usually purchase locos or rolling stock according to our preferences so most are interested in engines therefore engines are to the fore.  In reality engines are invariably in the minority and rolling stock prevails.  On the other hand, if one models a preservation line, then anything goes from unlikely locos to a motley collection of passenger stock and various goods vehicles.

 

Brian.

[bike2steam]

Yep, we'd all like a layout with dozens of sidings full of wagons where a large proportion of the rolling stock only moves about 2 days a year.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Very much a question of where and when. My layout is LMR/WR in the West Midlands. The date is variable from about 1956 to 1962. the reason for this is it gives me latitude to run different combinations and the surroundings didn't change much in that period. My usual rule is the no more than 3 locos are in sight at a time so that means on the layout there will be about 8-10, the rest being in the fiddle yard. For realism a fairly large stud means that you don't get a loco which has just gone north reappearing ten minutes later going south.

 

As far as locos are concerned I have about 4 possibles for every train in the timetable, only about half of my collection is in use at any time. 

As examples the WR branch stoppers (2 needed) can be served by a 14xx with 1930s Autocoach, early Railcar, later Railcar, 64xx with Hawksworth Auto coach and Class 122.

These can be subbed by a 57xx

 

LMR fitteds and longer distance passenger trains have the Black 5, Stanier Mogul or Crab, with a possible incursion by a stray Patriot or Jubilee and at the end of the period a Sulzer Type 2.

 

Depending on the era of the day, a special from the ER brings in a B1 or Brush Type 2 with a mixed rake of five or six Gresley / Thompson stock, possibly with a Mk1 included.

 

I've probably got about 200 wagons, but if a 15-wagon loaded coal train passes another of empties that's 30 for a start. Then I've got about 30 assorted vans so it soon mounts up.

 

Oh, and then of course we must not forget the Engineers. They've got a Saloon (hauled prototypically by 40646), a Clerestory Mess Coach, two tool vans, five open wagons, a bogie bolster, ten ballast wagons and two brake vans. (memo to self - need one of those little hand cranes).

[newbryford]

Despite my best efforts, I have tried not to be loco-centric with my new project, but I have failed miserably.

[tomparryharry]

Only a personal view, but....

 

Taff vale Railway. approx. 150 locomotives, about 20,000+ wagons. Yes, that's about right....

 

I've got about 63-ish locomotives, and that's the limit. I purposely don't buy tender locomotives; tank locos only. I love the look of the 47xx, but outside of my area. A bit like a Stanier Big Lizzie running up the Cardiff-Merthyr. About 6 coaches, but 27 4-wheelers for a proposed colliers train or two.

 

The rest is private owner wagons, and some 16 tonners. I will buy more wagons, because there is nothing better than a rake of 50 'taking up' A real borderline case is a Dean Goods: So far, the wallet stays shut, so more wagons for me!

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

Oh, vans. I need to buy more vans. Apart from baking, flour was a big user in the valleys. If you had a foundry, you had a lot of flour hanging about. Separation agent of a drop forge, that sort of thing.

[Dunsignalling]

IIRC, when we run Bournemouth Central (1960), we start off with eight M7s on shed, which is sufficient to cover our sequence, but only about half of what 71B had in reality. 

 

Loadsa Bulleids but, after one passes through, it can't be seen to "come back" for at least four hours (unless it's gone down to West), so most of them spend a long time idle. Once back in the FY they come off and are added to the back of queues labelled "Weymouth" or "Waterloo". Next train out gets the one off the front.

 

Coaches, by comparison, get worked to death, there just wouldn't be enough space to accommodate the numbers required to work the service prototypically.

 

John

Edited August 5, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[009 micro modeller]

If you have several small layouts of different prototypes then this becomes superfluous, as on any given layout a lot of your stock would never run, but you still need it to operate the others. I would think it was the ratio of stock to locos as shown on the layout that is important, rather than the ratio owned by the operator. The other aspect is that in model form there isn't much to go wrong on a wagon or coach, whereas locos can have electrical problems, need cleaning/maintaining etc, which makes having too many quite useful.

Edited August 5, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[Flood]

As bike2steam has already pointed out; when the comparison between locos, coaches and wagons was made there were sidings full of wagons that did not move on a daily basis along with Category B and Category C coaching stock which in the case of Category C stock probably did one journey, Saturdays only, between May and September (eg Derby to Penzance on one weekend, stored at St Erth for a week, Penzance to Derby next weekend etc).

 

The point about the ratio of express passenger locos:local tank engines:long distance freight locos:pick-up goods locos is entirely valid.

 

At the end of the day, though, rule 1 will reign supreme.

[cypherman]

Ah well,

If what is being promoted by the original thread here I need to buy a hell of a lot more stock. SWMBO will not be happy about this. I have over 200 engines in my collection, Approximately  80-90 coaches and about 250 wagons. If I go by what has been muted here my credit card will go into meltdown. On a more serious note we only need what we want to run. There is no way on earth that when I build my next layout I will ever be able to put all the loco's and  stock I do have on it at any one time. It is a case of being selective about what you want to run at any given time. Even my old loft layout which was 22ftx 16ft would struggle to take half of the stock I currently have at any one time. So you run what you have and so what if one rake of 8 coaches finds itself being pulled by several different loco's to make it look like you have more trains or the 30 wagon coal train is pulled by more than one loco. I sometimes think that we spend too much time rivet counting rather than enjoying running our trains.

I say to all just get out there and play trains, Enjoy our hobby. Make it as realistic as you like, but when all said and done it is a hobby to be enjoyed

Edited August 5, 2018 by cypherman

[Clive Mortimore]

Surely the ratio of locos and stock is dependent on where your layout is based. There is no need for a train iron ore tipplers in Norfolk but Northamptonshire there is a need for two one loaded and one empty.

 

I have far too many locos but that comes from building loco depot layouts. My present layout has very little freight, well only a few coal wagons and tank wagons for the loco facilities as the goods yard is the other side the of the bridge crossing the end of the terminus (well that is the plan). It has loads of DMUs, a few loco hauled non-corridor trains and even fewer corridor sets. I hope I have the balance right for a terminus that is mainly providing a suburban and short distance passenger service in the mid 1960s.

 

Here is something that I think other modellers could consider. Pre nationalisation  layouts where only the railway it is based on has freight stock, non common user would be roughly to the ratio of the numbers supplied to the "pool" by the four companies. Even non common user stock would be seen on other railways as it was easier to charge the railway the wagons were loaded on to travel on your lines than unload and reload.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well I forgot to mention my next layout is going to be the worlds biggest preserved railway, That way I can run whatever I want when ever I want........