'Correct' ratios of locos to stock

[LBRJ]

There are simply too many different options going off in model train land to make anything like "definitive" claims as to the right anything.

 

Among other interests I seem to have a growing collection of modern china clay wagons and quite a few sprinters - on the loco front that could be as low as a class 08 to shunt the yard, and maybe a 66 or something to move the wagons off stage sometimes!

[The Johnster]

I think of my railway as a real railway, only small and living in the 1950s.  It is a fictional BLT set in a real South Wales valley that never had a coal mine or a village; it does in my world.  It's locos and stock would have been provided from Tondu, and I reckon my Working Timetable would need 8 locos and 7 trains to replicate on the layout; a loco allocated to each turn of duty but a morning and afternoon turn for the colliery clearances.  There are 7 fiddle yard roads, containing 2 autos, a loco and B set, a workman's, a pickup, a parcels (rule 1 here, but I love NPCCS) and 2 mineral rakes, one loaded and one empty.

 

The locos are all numbered or to be numbered (the plates are on order as I write) as Tondu allocated examples; the passenger stock is all actual types base at Tondu and will eventually be numbered as such.  I reckon Tondu's allocation of around 50 locos would have been increased by about another 10 locos, so I have some justification for re-allocating locos that were not actually sent here under rule 1 authority for my own purposes so long as they are the exception rather than the rule.  I try to model locos in as many of the variations of surviving GW and early BR liveries as I can, and the same goes for stock.

 

My goods stock is divided about 50/50 as to opens and vans, but I am including 'specialist' opens such as conflats or lowfits as just opens in this.  This is to reflect a general increase in the ratio of vans to opens that had been going on since the Great War and was accelerated during the early BR period.  

 

Similarly, my minerals are about 40/60 steel 16tonners to wooden bodied XPO, with a smattering of 21ton double door and one hopper.  Liveries reflect the change from filthy XPO to freshly painted grey.

 

As this is a branch line with the same passenger stock and locos working up and down it every working day, I do not need more locos or passenger stock, but I will be no doubt obtaining one or two over the odds!  Like the real shed, I need spares to cover breakdowns to maintain the service.  

 

There are 8 locos, 5 passenger coaches (3 auto trailers and a B set), 9 NPCCS, 15 general merchandise goods vehicles for the pickup, which normally runs to 6 or 7 wagons, 11 each loaded and empty minerals (the maximum I can run to in my tiny fiddle yard) and 3 brake vans.  I will add to this slowly, as I have sufficient stock to run the timetable; a few more general merchandise wagons will enable me to ring the changes on the pickup, and I will be unable to resist any RTR auto trailer that is not an A27/30 or an A38, or any Collett non-gangwayed passenger stock other than a B set, he casually wishlisted.  On the loco front, the shopping list runs to a Bachmann 94xx and Dapol large prairie when they are available; both will replace existing locos rather than extend the roster.  Another 56xx is on the cards as well.

 

I am fairly happy that I have the balance about right.  I want to work to the principle that all the stock in service is on the layout at all times, and haven't achieved that, but most of it is, including all of the 9 and 10 foot wheelbase wagons; handling is minimised and taking stock off or placing it on the layout is restricted to the workman's and one of the autos, and a couple of bogie parcels vehicles.

Edited August 6, 2018 by The Johnster

[davetheroad]

My railway is unbalanced with a late 50's London Midland in Cumberland theme I have 49 locomotives and only one Black 5! and too many Princess Royal class, why? because the layout is mean to be representational of the loco types seen there plus I really like Princess Royals. I would like a Standard Class5 if I could afford it. I think that Class 31 diesel should not be there as well. With about 15 locos on layout including the fiddle yard then we have the rolling stock. About 36 coaches with too many mark1's cos I like the Euston/Glasgow Expresses. About 200 wagons of which half are off layout. for types of wagons I am checking images of actual goods trains in the area and copying those. Model railways are excellent fun and helps keep my mind and old fingers active.

[37114]

My stock ratio is driven purely by the layout needs. My current layout is based on a carriage siding but only one end of the siding is modelled, the longest siding being only long enough for 3 coaches, the shortest is only long enough for 1. For a full length representation I would have to buy upwards of 100 coaches but I have only 25 which is more than enough and also means I benefited from the over supply of MK2 brake coaches.

[dpgibbons]

Recently I have grouped my N Gauge stud into a reasonably balanced list of 29 consists for a roundy-roundy layout and I can report that, assuming one loco per consist, the required ratio of locos to rolling stock is 7.443 and the total consist length is 2345cm. 

[10000]

The point of model railway/railroad , playing with toy trains is to have fun , enjoyment and pleasure.

 

If emulating real world and using the correct proportions of locos. coaches and wagon does that for you then good.

 

But the same applies to the guy (or gal) who owns the complete classes of Princess's and Princess Coronation's and runs them with a couple of 3 coach rakes.

 

I sure that at exhibition's you would get some people that like the real world scenario with maybe 2 trains a day and others who like to see the not realistic express belting around.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It is the number of carriages and wagons you need to make up the minimum number of "trains" to run behind the maximum number of locos you can buy, whilst deluding yourself that you have created a model railway. 

[sharris]

I will borrow from staged entertainment here: the principal characters of the cast are the locomotives, some distinctive vehicles are supporting cast, most vehicles are the crowd scene extras. So there is no need to observe the true ratios of  locos : coaches : wagons, but instead only to present the illusion of an appropriate set of ratios within the modelled scene.

 

Thoughts, better methods, etc.?

 

Exactly, and where better to turn than Shakespeare and the prologue to Henry V which seems to sum up the model railway perfectly...

 

Piece out our imperfections with your thoughts;

Into a thousand parts divide one man,

And make imaginary puissance;

Think when we talk of horses, that you see them

Printing their proud hoofs i' the receiving earth;

For 'tis your thoughts that now must deck our kings,

Carry them here and there; jumping o'er times,

Turning the accomplishment of many years

Into an hour-glass: for the which supply

 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by sharris

[Harlequin]

If the original thought were followed through to its logical conclusion, wouldn't that mean you'd need several thousand scale miles of track to be in proportion with your locos and rolling stock?

 

I think the nuanced stage analogy is right: The model is the stage, the locos are the stars, the less individually recognisable rolling stock are the supporting actors who might take on more than one role and then, as they say, "other parts were played by members of the cast".

[Il Grifone]

Do I need another loco/wagon/coach/whatever?

 

No!

 

Do I want another loco/wagon/coach/whatever?

 

Yes!    (Silly question!)

 

Can I afford it? / sneak it past SWMBO?

 

Buy!

 

Seriously, the model only represents a fraction of the system, so the overall ratio is irrelevant.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Il Grifone

[DCB]

orford, on 04 Aug 2018 - 10:55, said:

Qoute[...To operate any layout with some degree of realism (and surely that is what creating a model railway is all about), if you have 150 locos,
then you should have around 1200 coaches and at least 5000 wagons, representing a reasonable prototype mix. I think from memory that it was the late,
great, David Jenkinson who originally pointed this out - and he was right. Layouts look FAR better with an appropriate prototypical mix of locomotives
and rolling stock...]
 

The OP ratio of 150 locos to 1200 coaches cannot be right, 8 coaches per loco, too few coaches for Dawlish on an August Saturday in 1957,
far too many for the actual ratio which I thought was nearer 3 : 1  The GW had approx 3000 locos and 6000 coaches circa 1938

Wagons is a bit nearer, BR had 20 000 locos and built another 2500 locos and 500 000 wagons in the same 15 year period.

It depends where you are modelling, and when. Dawlish South Devon Summer Saturday, August 1957, about 15 trains an hour of around
12 coaches a few longer but double headed maybe 180 coaches and 17 locos per hour. All Tender locos, mostly 4-6-0s couple of 2-6-0s
maybe one or two 2-8-0s (2-10-0s in later years) occasional Britannia,no locals, no tank locos.

Now a GW wayside station in the week in Summer 1957 say on the Wsetbury route, you would get the occasional express, sort of 3 hourly
but both ways so 90 mins 8/9/10 coaches Probably with a King, any one of about 22 not allocated to Wolverhampton, or Castle. A stopper,
Hall maybe, or a 41XX tank. Through goods with a 4-6-0 or 2-8-0 and maybe a pick up, with anything from a small tank to a 28XX.
So half a dozen Kings, ten Castles, ten Halls, a couple of 28XX and a couple of tanks would be a sensible ratio,

To state the obvious Big engines travelled long distances, Maybe London to Birkenhead, passing through every station en route.
Little engines stayed much nearer to home, only when loaned to another shed or en route to works would they usually stray beyond
the next large depot, and many would spend their entire working week within a couple of miles of "Home" but conversely at Swindon,
four or five of the dozen or so shunters working each day, would start and finish their turns on workmens trains to Purton, Highworth,
Marlborough and Cirencester. (GW Panniers were proper mixed traffic locos unlike LNER J51 etc)

I like a ratio to give me an hour and a halfs operation, Passenger locos take out a train, a second loco returns it and a third takes
it out next time and another, possibly the first, then returns it, basically 3 locos to 7 coaches ratio. My trains have 2 different
imagined destinations 1 SR
and one GWR so an SR loco returns and SR train etc. and its surprising how quickly you run out of locos and end up double heading a WC
turn with a T9 and N mogul, or using the S15 off the goods. (that a Triang King Arthur modded (Half my locos are Modified Triang,
I can't afford current RTR prices

I don't model the railway between around 11 pm and 12 noon, so I don't model most fast freights, so the (old kit built) 47XX only gets
a run when its borrowed to fill in on a local between overnight trips, languishing outside the depot most of the time.

I run the branch so I need branch goods loco which also does a pick up run on the main.
I need upside and down side shunters,at both stations,
2 Bankers (with Special front couplings)
I need a transfer freight loco for the terminus to through station transfers
Local Passenger locos, 2 Auto train locos, some main line local passenger turns involve the branch.

I end up with a roster which appears Express loco heavy but in fact I'm short of big locos and the shunters barely get to turn a wheel.

If we had more operators then at least two shunters could operate more or less permanently.

Edited August 7, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[Dunsignalling]

orford, on 04 Aug 2018 - 10:55, said:

 

Qoute[...To operate any layout with some degree of realism (and surely that is what creating a model railway is all about), if you have 150 locos,

then you should have around 1200 coaches and at least 5000 wagons, representing a reasonable prototype mix. I think from memory that it was the late,

great, David Jenkinson who originally pointed this out - and he was right. Layouts look FAR better with an appropriate prototypical mix of locomotives

and rolling stock...]

 

The 150 locos to 1200 coaches cant

 

"Layouts look FAR better with an appropriate prototypical mix of locomotives and rolling stock"....."on stage" at any given time,  

 

Years ago, it was quite normal for layouts to accommodate almost every loco, coach and wagon the owner possessed, and for them to remain thereon most of the time. That generally only applies today if one models a minority scale/gauge/prototype that makes it necessary to build most or all of ones own models.

 

We have been deluged with good quality r-t-r for nearly a couple of decades, and, unless one is working to a very tight budget or possessed of superhuman self-control, I'd think it highly unusual nowadays for layouts in the commercially popular scales, other than by choice.    

 

What's waiting in the fiddle yard or might be tucked away in the wardrobe of the spare bedroom doesn't come in to the calculation at all.

 

John

Edited August 6, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

 

Exactly, and where better to turn than Shakespeare and the prologue to Henry V which seems to sum up the model railway perfectly...

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to try to outdo Stratford Bill; that should be framed on the walls above all our layouts...

[The Johnster]

I think of my railway as a real railway, only small and living in the 1950s.  It is a fictional BLT set in a real South Wales valley that never had a coal mine or a village; it does in my world.  It's locos and stock would have been provided from Tondu, and I reckon my Working Timetable would need 8 locos and 7 trains to replicate on the layout; a loco allocated to each turn of duty but a morning and afternoon turn for the colliery clearances.  There are 7 fiddle yard roads, containing 2 autos, a loco and B set, a workman's, a pickup, a parcels (rule 1 here, but I love NPCCS) and 2 mineral rakes, one loaded and one empty.

 

The locos are all numbered or to be numbered (the plates are on order as I write) as Tondu allocated examples; the passenger stock is all actual types base at Tondu and will eventually be numbered as such.  I reckon Tondu's allocation of around 50 locos would have been increased by about another 10 locos, so I have some justification for re-allocating locos that were not actually sent here under rule 1 authority for my own purposes so long as they are the exception rather than the rule.  I try to model locos in as many of the variations of surviving GW and early BR liveries as I can, and the same goes for stock.

 

My goods stock is divided about 50/50 as to opens and vans, but I am including 'specialist' opens such as conflats or lowfits as just opens in this.  This is to reflect a general increase in the ratio of vans to opens that had been going on since the Great War and was accelerated during the early BR period.  

 

Similarly, my minerals are about 40/60 steel 16tonners to wooden bodied XPO, with a smattering of 21ton double door and one hopper.  Liveries reflect the change from filthy XPO to freshly painted grey.

 

As this is a branch line with the same passenger stock and locos working up and down it every working day, I do not need more locos or passenger stock, but I will be no doubt obtaining one or two over the odds!  Like the real shed, I need spares to cover breakdowns to maintain the service.  

 

There are 8 locos, 5 passenger coaches (3 auto trailers and a B set), 9 NPCCS, 15 general merchandise goods vehicles for the pickup, which normally runs to 6 or 7 wagons, 11 each loaded and empty minerals (the maximum I can run to in my tiny fiddle yard) and 3 brake vans.  I will add to this slowly, as I have sufficient stock to run the timetable; a few more general merchandise wagons will enable me to ring the changes on the pickup, and I will be unable to resist any RTR auto trailer that is not an A27/30 or an A38, or any Collett non-gangwayed passenger stock other than a B set, he casually wishlisted.  On the loco front, the shopping list runs to a Bachmann 94xx and Dapol large prairie when they are available; both will replace existing locos rather than extend the roster.  Another 56xx is on the cards as well.

 

I am fairly happy that I have the balance about right.  I want to work to the principle that all the stock in service is on the layout at all times, and haven't achieved that, but most of it is, including all of the 9 and 10 foot wheelbase wagons; handling is minimised and taking stock off or placing it on the layout is restricted to the workman's and one of the autos, and a couple of bogie parcels vehicles.

To expand on this, I can logically and realistically justify a set number of locomotives and passenger coaches on my BLT. and in theory limit the number of mineral wagons if I assume they are formally or informally in circuit working, but the fiddly yard represents the entire rest of BR as far as NPCCS and general merchandise wagons are concerned, so in theory I could justifiably model all of them, In their thousands and tens of thousands.  

 

I'm not gonna do this...

[Zomboid]

You are absolutely right about too many locos on minor branch lines. I think however there is more to it than just showing off nice loco models. There is also a (perceived) need to always have something in motion to entertain the crowd. I think this can be overdone in some cases, but in the case of the one engine in steam terminus, when the train departs in reality nothing happens - for hours. Even speeding up time and taking the outbound train into one siding in the fiddle yard and getting a replacement ready takes more than a couple of seconds in most cases; and if you are lucky enough to have a set up that allows a rapid replacement train to arrive it can look very unrealistic. Hence a second loco doing something on stage.

One of the most interesting layouts to watch that I've seen was run with a single locomotive and one Budd RDC. Only one was ever "on scene" at a time. It was very effective at capturing the feel of a really quiet branch line. It helped I think that the off scene was just one track and open. Hard to put a finger on it, but if there had been constant action the layout would have been much worse.

[tomparryharry]

One of the most interesting layouts to watch that I've seen was run with a single locomotive and one Budd RDC. Only one was ever "on scene" at a time. It was very effective at capturing the feel of a really quiet branch line. It helped I think that the off scene was just one track and open. Hard to put a finger on it, but if there had been constant action the layout would have been much worse.

 

Likewise, I can well remember a Western BLT at a show, with about 4 wagons, and around 15 locos.... Crowded?, Really?  One gent however, got it bang on. He bought a lot (and I mean, a lot) of rolling stock, which got used just the once on his exhibition, and it was strictly rotated. If you saw 'that wagon' on a Saturday, it wasn't there on the Sunday; off into another part of the wider railway network. I can't remember the gents name, but I was highly impressed with his approach to how the railway operated.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[brianusa]

I'm afraid all I do is switch on and run what was left where the time before.  Alternatively, I'll pick some carriages or goods vehicles off the shelves and run something different.  Simple perhaps but still a lot of enjoyment!

 

Brian.

[The Johnster]

Nothing wrong with that, Brian; rule 1 trumps everything else, even Donald Trump.  

 

It's pretty much what I do, but my stock is left in position at the end of an operating session, and the timetable simply picked up where I left it off on the timetable on the next operating session; it is currently about 08.15 Cwmdimbath time, some time in the early 50s on a weekday, and the workman's for the Royal Ordnance Factory at Tremains, Bridgend is ready to leave as soon as the first load of mineral empties appears from Tondu and clears the single track branch; the loop bracket home signal is already cleared for it.  The advantage of having a layout permanently set up is that you can do this sort of thing and only have to remove small amounts of stock or replace them at a time.

[Talltim]

It’s been interesting that pretty much everyone goes on the basis of individual locos not appearing too often, but individual/rakes of wagons or coaches stand in for many of their brethren.

It’s the wagons I notice, I probably wouldn’t notice if the same loco appeared twice, especially if the same class and livery.

[Oldddudders]

It’s been interesting that pretty much everyone goes on the basis of individual locos not appearing too often, but individual/rakes of wagons or coaches stand in for many of their brethren.

It’s the wagons I notice, I probably wouldn’t notice if the same loco appeared twice, especially if the same class and livery.

 

If you actually notice wagon or coach numbers you are truly a cut above the rest of us. Even reading them could be a challenge!

[Andy Hayter]

Like many others I have more locos than I should compared with the other stock.  My main sin however is a tendancy towards 1 of everything, whereas an area would have for example 

4 x J39s

2 x J6

4 x D10

12 x 04

2 x J50

 

 and so on

 

This would be represented by:

 

 

1 x J39s

1 x J6

1 x D10

1 x 04

1 x J50

[Jol Wilkinson]

If the original thought were followed through to its logical conclusion, wouldn't that mean you'd need several thousand scale miles of track to be in proportion with your locos and rolling stock?

 

I think the nuanced stage analogy is right: The model is the stage, the locos are the stars, the less individually recognisable rolling stock are the supporting actors who might take on more than one role and then, as they say, "other parts were played by members of the cast".

 

"the locos are the stars" is undoubtedly true for many but a model railway should have equal emphasis placed upon all aspects, locos, rolling stock, infrastructure, etc. Is the concentration on locos detrimental to creating more realistic models?

 

I consider the attached as much of a star as any of my locos. However, it is a kit/scratchbuilt model I made and I wonder if that influences my view. Would I think the same about a RTR model?

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Jol Wilkinson

[Talltim]

That coach is undoubtedly a star, especially when your locos are all black ;-)

[Rivercider]

It’s been interesting that pretty much everyone goes on the basis of individual locos not appearing too often, but individual/rakes of wagons or coaches stand in for many of their brethren.

It’s the wagons I notice, I probably wouldn’t notice if the same loco appeared twice, especially if the same class and livery.

I am also in the minority then.

I do have 'too many' locos. I operate my layout as either 1960s BR (SR), or 1970s BR (WR) and have either 4 steam locos or 4 diesels which take turns to arrive and shunt the small yard. I then give more thought to what freight traffic arrives for example varying the vanfits between big 4 builds or BR standard types, likewise the 16t mins are either wooden bodied, unfitted steel or vacuum fitted in varying proportions.I also have a selection of highfits, and cement wagons as well as odd specials. I have a selection of engineers stock to make up random engineers trains. 

I suppose I am trying to replicate my memories of trainspotting, or working in the TOPS office. Local yards often got visited by the same locally allocated locos time and again.

 

cheers

[Guest teacupteacup]

I have 6 loco's, 29 wagons and 3 parcels vans (and 3 DMUs).  I think my ratio is way out but its enough for me.   All my stock will be the 'star', all the loco's are being re-sprayed and around half my wagons are kit built, the rest are weathered at least.

 

My current 4mm/OO layout will be able to hold about 10/12 wagons with a loco or 2, any more would look too crowded - the scenic section is 6ft long and my wagons are long wheelbase and bogie air-braked stock

 

Mind you, I will pick up more wagon kits as time goes on!