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'Correct' ratios of locos to stock


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"the locos are the stars" is undoubtedly true for many but a model railway should have equal emphasis placed upon all aspects, locos, rolling stock, infrastructure, etc. Is the concentration on locos detrimental to creating more realistic models?

 

I consider the attached as much of a star as any of my locos. However, it is a kit/scratchbuilt model I made and I wonder if that influences my view. Would I think the same about a RTR model?

 

attachicon.gifD10 34.jpg

 

That is a lovely looking model, Jol.

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It’s been interesting that pretty much everyone goes on the basis of individual locos not appearing too often, but individual/rakes of wagons or coaches stand in for many of their brethren.

It’s the wagons I notice, I probably wouldn’t notice if the same loco appeared twice, especially if the same class and livery.

 

If the same loco appeared twice, it would probably be the same class and livery.

 

Sorry, I'll get my coat now...

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I try to reproduce real working; operating realistically is of primary importance for me.  My layout is inspired by (based on would be putting it too strongly) the actual terminus of Abergwynfi in the South Wales valleys, ostensibly a very basic single track branch terminus with a run around loop and a road leading to a colliery.  I have the 1960 Working Time Table for the area, which shows that this branch was incredibly busy. with an auto service to Bridgend via Maesteg, the colliery clearances, and workman's services for both the miners and, with more conventional passenger stock, a daily commuter to the Royal Ordnance Factory at Tremains near Bridgend.  Services start at just after 6 am and the last auto from Bridgend gets in at 23.55, away ecs at 00.01.  You would be hard put to find spare paths for much of the working day.

 

I have added two sidings to my layout which generate a daily pickup which occupies the station for most of the slack mid-morning period and a parcels which serves a Remploy factory (there were a good few of these in South Wales in the post war period and the concern still has a presence in the area; mostly government contracted work for the gainful employment of war veterans and others disabled in some way).  My (entirely imaginary) factory specialises in the repair and reconditioning of mobility aids and other equipment for the NHS, only a few years old itself in my period.  This traffic is urgent enough to require NPCCS running as class C traffic.  This means the station is busy with shunting movements all afternoon as well; it is possible with the choice of such a prototype to base your working on to maintain a service that would be deemed far too intensive for a rural branch with similar facilities, or lack of them.  My stock levels are based on the requirements of this railway and the service it provides to it's community, or at least on my assessment of them.

 

The pickup carries traffic for intermediate locations not modelled, a cold store, fuel oil depot, and a timber yard, and an occasional trip appears with pit props or other inward traffic for the colliery apart from the loaded and empty coal trains.  The NCB is still a recent arrival on the scene in the early 50s, and has promised to build pit head baths wherever it can; they are under construction at Cwmdimbath and a wagon of gravel, building materials, or cable drums appears sometimes in connection with this and other development work down there, along with the odd van containing who knows what.  This comes up with the pickup and has to be tripped down to the colliery.  This colliery is not actually modelled, but assumed to accessed via a ground frame about a quarter of a mile past the scenic break overbridge; the coal trains, loaded and empty, have to come up to the terminus and run around.  This provides plenty of operating interest and I do not feel that I have overstocked the layout.

Edited by The Johnster
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I'm afraid I do not subscribe to the theory of this thread. 

 

If I have five or six rakes of coaching stock, but the fiddle yard represents the rest of the country; I can use many different locomotives to indicate that the originating stations had loco sheds with large allocations supplying their services.

 

For instance, Colwick provided the locos for the Grantham to Nottingham passenger service. I'm not sure exactly how many sets of coaches were used but in the early 1960s the depot had at least 20 L1s which were used on this and other local services.

 

A lot of spare locos gives a much more realistic impression than the same numbered engine just shuttling backwards and forwards, especially if the destination station is many miles away.

 

 

 

 

 

Surely the average BLT that people build would have the same numbered loco arriving most of the time. My main interest is Bodmin. Here the passenger train normally consist or the same sets of coached and the same loco throughout the day. The local goods generally had the same loco each day or every other day. Even if you go to Padstow, it's the same apart from the Ace but even that was tagged onto a local in low season, and the fish specials might bring in an odd loco.

Railways were and are a business Tring to make money. They have very sophisticated timetables to use the minimum stock and staff as economically as possible. Stock sitting around doing nothing is expensive, which is why often the same coaches and often the same loco would do the same journey.

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I have 8 locos and 11 coaches currently. A bit under the ratio above lol

 But for some locations that might be a reasonable choice, and operating them in a realistic manner possible. This is the 'nuanced' aspect which Jonny 777 well illustrated in his post; there are places where relatively 'loco heavy' paints the picture of that specific location.  For much the same reason I have a plenitude of N2s. In the KX inner suburban area at Hatfield they were like a rash. I will hopefully be supplementing my kit built N7s in the near future too, for the same reason.

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If the same loco appeared twice, it would probably be the same class and livery.

 

Sorry, I'll get my coat now...

 

On the Llanelly & Mynydd Mawr, those same 10-ton wagons would take the same trip about 5-6 times a day. Same trip, same wagons. Conversely, Lady Margaret colliery(Ynysir, Rhondda) had limited pit head facilities, so the sidings would be cleared every half-hour, with only about 6-7 wagons., Over the next valley, Stephenson Clarke at Bargoed had facilities for about 600 wagons.

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Surely the average BLT that people build would have the same numbered loco arriving most of the time. My main interest is Bodmin. Here the passenger train normally consist or the same sets of coached and the same loco throughout the day. The local goods generally had the same loco each day or every other day. Even if you go to Padstow, it's the same apart from the Ace but even that was tagged onto a local in low season, and the fish specials might bring in an odd loco.

Railways were and are a business Tring to make money. They have very sophisticated timetables to use the minimum stock and staff as economically as possible. Stock sitting around doing nothing is expensive, which is why often the same coaches and often the same loco would do the same journey.

Bodmin (LSWR) was quite odd in that its trains ran terminus to terminus..  I think only Wadebridge allocated locos worked there so about 2 X 02s as regular locos with any one of the Beattie well tanks filing in if an 02 failed.

Other Branches served by bigger sheds with more locos could see a much greater variety of locos, any of the 6 Laira 64XX could be found at Tavistock, one was usually spare from the Marsh Mills - Saltash Autos, then there were about half a dozen 45XX, a dozen or so 57XX locos I have even see pics of 14XX and several sets of Plymouth area local sets. Some trips were a B set, others added a second B set for peak load services so a much greater variety of locos could be seen.  Probably get 20 ticked off in your ABC train spotting at Tavistock GWR over the summer 1955, against 5 at Bodmin SR.    Some locos did gravitate to certain branches, I believe 1470 was the Brixham loco from Newton Abbott depot which had about 6 X 14XX on its books for Moretonhampstead, Ashburton, Brixham etc branches.

Wagons, well some went out and back every couple of days, never got far from home as in Kingswear to Torquay Gas works coal trains, local coal merchants wagons came back every now and again and probably most wagons never returned again, for realism, buy it, renumber it, run it, renumber it, run it again.... Many GW Branches only saw one brake van except for rare occasions when it needed maintenance when one other would deputise,

Edited by DavidCBroad
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I have 8 locos and 11 coaches currently. A bit under the ratio above lol

 

That's better than me - currently I have 15 coaches in various stages of construction and 0 locos. 

Soon I'll have to break into the two LRM boxes I have (Chopper and 5'6" tank) so I have something to pull them. 

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To me, it depends where you're basing your layout, and on what. For example, if you're modelling a marshalling yard in the 50s, you'll be needing a lot of wagons, and a decent few locos and two or three shunters. A modern TMD for example you can have enough to populate the depot, and maybe some fuel tank wagons.

 

Then again, its your own collection and you can have whatever you want in it!

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Surely the average BLT that people build would have the same numbered loco arriving most of the time. My main interest is Bodmin. Here the passenger train normally consist or the same sets of coached and the same loco throughout the day. The local goods generally had the same loco each day or every other day. Even if you go to Padstow, it's the same apart from the Ace but even that was tagged onto a local in low season, and the fish specials might bring in an odd loco.

Railways were and are a business Tring to make money. They have very sophisticated timetables to use the minimum stock and staff as economically as possible. Stock sitting around doing nothing is expensive, which is why often the same coaches and often the same loco would do the same journey.

 

It's not just a BLT that can have the same loco.

A couple of years back, one freight working past my house had 66849 on it 5-6 days per week for the better part of six months...…

 

Cheers,

Mick

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It's not just a BLT that can have the same loco.

A couple of years back, one freight working past my house had 66849 on it 5-6 days per week for the better part of six months...…

 

Cheers,

Mick

Hi Mick

 

Isn't the correct ratio of stock, 1 green, 2 red, 1 blue, 1 black, 3 brown, 1 brown with a red stripe, 1,000,000 yellow? :sungum: :sungum:

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Serious note.

 

Mick's Derby research centre layout is a good example of keeping things in the right ratio for the location. Most layouts would look daft with five or so special research  trains parked up. Micks looks right. The art is to get a balance, not a ratio, of the typical stock that could be found at the location in the time period you model in.

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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Serious note.

 

Mick's Derby research centre layout is a good example of keeping things in the right ratio for the location. Most layouts would look daft with five or special research  trains parked up. Micks looks right. The art is to get a balance, not a ratio, of the typical stock that could be found at the location in the time period you model in.

Thank you, this was exactly the point made in the 'Keeping the balance' series of articles. It wasn't just about the ratios of locos, coaches & wagons, but the correct proportion and types for a location. The vast majority being 'run if the mill', unless your location/type of traffic said otherwise.

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Agreed.

 

A sleepy branch line terminus would need a very different stock list to a model representing Top Shed. Getting the balance right makes for a more realistic layout. Unfortunately the weird and wonderful are just too modellable....

 

 

Steven B.

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Serious note.

 

Mick's Derby research centre layout is a good example of keeping things in the right ratio for the location. Most layouts would look daft with five or special research  trains parked up. Micks looks right. The art is to get a balance, not a ratio, of the typical stock that could be found at the location in the time period you model in.

Agreed. Also, a lot of the "but what about XXX location " arguments miss this point from the original discussion on Don Rowland's (not David Jenkinson's) ratio theory:

 

I spoke to Don on a number of occasions about such things when he lived in Scotland and of course he always pointed out that the balance varied depending on where you were watching the trains.

If you are modelling Carlisle on a 1960s summer Saturday you will need a lot of Pacifics, a lot of LMS and BR coaches, not many wagons (because they're all behind you on the avoiding lines) and a Jinty. If you are modelling Wetherall, a few miles up the road, you will not.

 

What the ratio does do is point out (to those of us who were not there at the time) that the historical railway consisted of more than sunlit three-quarter views of expresses. If you like sunlit expresses fill you boots - we model what inspires us after all - but if you want it to be authentic you might need to throw in a few coal trains in inbetween them.

 

Two quotes vaguely remembered from books:

 

"Everyone knows the LMS had red engines (even if most of them were actually black)" - LMS Miscelleny by HN Twells I think.

 

"Cardean might have been the darling of the Caledonian's publicity department but it was a black 0-6-0 moving coal which paid the bills"

 

Edited by Wheatley
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Even a one engine in steam branch with a 'usual' branch loco (1421 on the Cowbridge branch comes to mind) needs a boiler washout every 10 working days, which will take it out of service for a minimum of 48 hours, and the work will be done at a main depot where there is a boilersmith and the correct tools, not at the branch's sub-shed. So a reserve loco will turn up every now and then, or possibly (as at Cowbridge, where the stock lived at Llantrisant) a railcar turns up from Canton for a few days.  Same happens when the branch loco goes to works for overhaul.  

 

So even the most minimalist layout can have 2 or 3 locos available.  It just gets out of hand a bit when it is a shuntilng layout with nearly as many locos as wagons.

 

Another excuse to have more than one loco on a small layout is the exchange siding; the BR or big company loco leaves traffic for a private industry or NCB loco to collect, and vice versa, but this should not involve an unlicensed private loco intruding on to BR's tracks, or the BR loco passing it's designated stop board 'Railway Executive Engines Must Not Pass This Notice'.  O gauge layouts at shows seem to be particular offenders in this regard for some reason...

Edited by The Johnster
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Orford's comment was in response a statement of mine on another thread, about having around 150 locos, and being unwilling to invest the time or money into chipping them in order to go fully DCC.

 

The ratios postulated were thought to be attributable to David Jenkinson. It is possible his analysis from some decades back came from the premise that to have proper models they needed to be kit or scratchbuilt, in which case it makes a lot more sense. I wouldn't have 4 A1's and 8 Brush 4's if I'd had to build and paint them, rather than purchase same and do some tweeks and detailing. He would have been building whole trains I suspect, an appropriate loco for a rake of coaches, and of course he was the expert in LMS coaches as co-author of the famous three volume history of same.

 

Now, fast forward to the present day. Three of those Peppercorn A1's, along with my pair of A3's, my A4 and Peppercorn A2 (all detailed RTR) all look fine pulling a mixed rake of coaches in maroon and crimson/cream, including two Kirk Gresleys, some Bachmann Mk1's and Thompsons. My B17 and 2 B1's would suit as well, as would an allover green Brush 2, class 40 or Baby Deltic. On the freight side my mixed rake of mainly steel coal wagons could be hung behind almost anything that ran between the early 50's and late 60's. Obviously all the locos aren't on display at one time (a point made above}, perhaps 15 say, but the total stock can be rotated onto different trains and still have credibility.

 

As it happens I quite like messing around with RTR locos and having the same type with different features, liveries, crests, chimneys, tenders etc for steam, and also having bought them over four decades they haven't cost that much and I'm not inclined, or need, to sell any. There are some kit built efforts as well, and whilst some have been superceded by RTR they're certainly not going anywhere. One of the first posts on here, by Olddudders, observed that this was a hobby, not a straitjacket, which summarises how I feel to a tee!

 

John.

Edited by John Tomlinson
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I feel that as we "model railways" surely the best thing to do is copy as best we can the prototype. This includes the right locos coaches and wagons for our chosen time period. Surely running whatever we feel like with whatever loco is todays choice, is playing trains rather than modelling a railway.

If we are collecting locos, coach's etc then that's a different story.

Edited by N15class
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The original article was called Rationalise Your Stock Building by David Jenkinson and was in Railway Modeller in the early 1970s. About 1974 or '75.

 

It dealt with what locomotives and stock you needed to run a LMS ex Midland Railway mainline in the 1930s and was stressing that you should be building those rather than building things which are inappropriate for the line.

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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"Cardean might have been the darling of the Caledonian's publicity department but it was a black 0-6-0 moving coal which paid the bills"

 

Oh well, my ratios may be all over the place but at least I got something right...........

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2091/entry-21153-cr-d63-brake-in-service/

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"Cardean might have been the darling of the Caledonian's publicity department but it was a black 0-6-0 moving coal which paid the bills"

 

Oh well, my ratios may be all over the place but at least I got something right...........

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2091/entry-21153-cr-d63-brake-in-service/

 

I recall someone in Model Railways - Michael? Waters - doing a series of articles on Lincolnshire stations , and noting that prototypically you needed 87 wagons for every loco..

 

I can't get off the starting blocks in those terms...

 

OK , in reality the prototype ratio is unrealistically high. It includes all those coaches that were only used on a dozen summer Saturdays a year and which Beeching discovered made up a sizeable proportion of the fleet. It includes various yards like Annesley, Toton and Colwick rammed full of minerals going nowhere at the moment, slowly . It assumes you are going to run 70 wagon freight trains - you'll do well to manage 20 wagons - and that when you model an express it'll load to 14 like the Midday Scot, the Cornish Riviera and the Atlantic Coast Express...

 

But all the same, despite the exercise of heroic restraint on the loco front and a vigourous focus on wagon building, the stock ratio for the Boxfile sits obstinately at 7:1 , despite wagon building having passed into its fifth suite/tranche of stock. Blacklade is outside the rules , because it's basically a DMU layout, and only a DMU substitute rake and a parcels permits 2 locos in operation. But there's no doubt I'm more loco-heavy than DMU heavy. And under "steam period" I have 5 locos in traffic for 6 coaches and about 3 items of parcels stock - despite all my efforts at coachbuilding.

 

P.S. I have made an effort to adhere to proper ratios of stock within the wagon-fleet for the Boxfile. I read somewhere that the correct ratio in 1948 was LMS 8: LNER 7 : GWR 3 : SR 1, and I've tried to keep BR built stock to about a third of the fleet for a layout theoretically set 1955-65. I'm a little light on LNER, slightly over on GW and have no SR - the next tranche should therefore include a SR van....

 

The working fleet for a session is 7 wagons and a loco - 3 wagons behind the scenes ready to go on, 3 "empties" on their spots, and 1 wagon under the hoist. For the 50s the correct ratio seems to be 2 opens to every van , but opens were less intensively used, and it's an urban goods depot so the actual make up of the 7 wagons is 4 vans (incl 1 perishables) : 2 minerals : 1 open

 

This does at least help by telling you what to build next from the stash, to get the ratios back in balance... Currently I'm a couple of LNER vans light...

Edited by Ravenser
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