Modern Traction Kits

[ianwales]

On the subject of MTK kits, anyone have or know of one of their 54ft LMS suburban coach kits lying around they no longer require?

 

Ian

[74009]

Hi Halvarras, they were both fairly fast with their original Lima 33 motors.  Both now have 6v CD motors and Zimo chips - with these chips you can regulate the maximum voltage sent to the motor using CV57  (60 = 6v,  55 = 5½v etc.)  - so the top speed can be easily controlled using that CV without losing controllability across the rest of the speed range.

 

I'd like to see a RTR class 74  -  it was going to be done by DJ Models but sadly that never came to fruition.  I suppose Hornby might consider it - they already have the 71 so they could use the same chassis and update the bodyshell.

[andyman7]

Not MTK, but in the same vein here's a built Jidenco Class 50 that I picked up for just over £22 on ebay. I found the attached old RMWeb thread describing the kit as unbuildable rubbish and not looking very much like a class 50. Well, this one is most definitely built, and whilst the cab ends can probably best be described as 'pastiche' the body itself isn't bad.

 

The kit was apparently supplied without bogies and (as here) appears to have been intended for use with a Lima Deltic mechanism. I'm very inclined to leave this one as is - I could rebogie it and fit it with a better mechanism but it's never going to be a finescale modern model so why not leave it? Even the numbers in incorrect typeface remind me of how 'modern image' models were numbered then before we had the likes of Fox and Realtec.

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by andyman7
Spelling

[Halvarras]

15 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Not MTK, but in the same vein here's a built Jidenco Class 50 that I picked up for just over £22 on ebay. I found the attached old RMWeb thread describing the kit as unbuildable rubbish and not looking very much like a class 50. Well, this one is most definitely built, and whilst the cab ends can probably best be described as 'pastiche' the body itself isn't bad.

 

The kit was apparently supplied without bogies and (as here) appears to have been intended for use with a Lima Deltic mechanism. I'm very inclined to leave this one as is - I could rebogie it and fit it with a better mechanism but it's never going to be a finescale modern model so why not leave it? Even the numbers in incorrect typeface remind me of how 'modern image' models were numbered then before we had the likes of Fox and Realtec.

 

 

I had heard about this one and its 'difficulties' but never seen one before (think I know why.....). However I agree, this looks very much like a Class 50.......from side views anyway. The cab fronts......er.......are not terribly convincing, to put it politely!

[Halvarras]

20 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Even the numbers in incorrect typeface remind me of how 'modern image' models were numbered then before we had the likes of Fox and Realtec.

 

 

 

It wasn't quite that bad - I've had a rummage through my boxfile of transfer sheets....

Back in 1968 I purchased a sheet of 'Kingsprint' dry-print transfers from a shop in St Austell in Cornwall - a chance find and essential for my Tri-ang Brush 2 to Brush 4 conversion (I was desperate, OK?!) This was very good for its time and comprehensive, although its small size put a bit of a squeeze on the diesel loco numbers (and the block serif numbers in cream was a waste). Here's the second sheet I bought, which didn't see much use as it quickly became a little too dry:

 

During the 1970s it was inevitable that MTK would introduce their own (waterslide) transfer range, although like the kits these were not exactly cutting-edge (however the big wagon and coach sheets were something else!) The headcode characters were almost useless, although I did use them occasionally and 'thinned them down' with black paint after application, and the data panels were laughable but nothing else was available at the time:

 

Another 1970s transfer range came from Kemco, waterslide again and very good quality although there was no loco numbering on this sheet:

 

Anyone remember Peakside Products? This dry-print transfer sheet appeared in late 1978/early 1979 and could have been purposely designed to rectify the Kingsprint sheet's lack of modern image numbering as the artwork appears to be identical. It wasn't perfect - the large BR logos are slightly oversized and the silver numbers, while great for Hymeks, weren't suitable for the electric locomotives the silver arrow logos were presumably intended for! After obtaining a sheet by mail order in February 1979 I was surprised to find them on sale in a local shop (Trents) in 1982 so purchased a second sheet, which is the one below - this has lasted so long because most of my renumbering requirements since the 1990s have been met by Replica Railways dry-print number sets, however I still use both PP sheets from time to time as they are still working!:

 

During the 1980s other manufacturers joined in such as SMS (first with Large Logo/numbers?) and Howes of Oxford's Alfac comprehensive dry-print sheets - and it was onwards and upwards from there......

I'm also aware that the highly-regarded HMRS sheets have been around for a long time too.

Hope this is of interest!

[cctransuk]

24 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

It wasn't quite that bad - I've had a rummage through my boxfile of transfer sheets...

 

Me too - and I came up with most of the Woodhead Transfers range.

 

These were, IMHO, by far the best researched, designed and printed range of transfers ever produced up until that time and, when they ceased production, the inspiration for my own Cambridge Custom Transfers.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

It wasn't quite that bad - I've had a rummage through my boxfile of transfer sheets....

Back in 1968 I purchased a sheet of 'Kingsprint' dry-print transfers from a shop in St Austell in Cornwall - a chance find and essential for my Tri-ang Brush 2 to Brush 4 conversion (I was desperate, OK?!) This was very good for its time and comprehensive, although its small size put a bit of a squeeze on the diesel loco numbers (and the block serif numbers in cream was a waste). Here's the second sheet I bought, which didn't see much use as it quickly became a little too dry:

 

During the 1970s it was inevitable that MTK would introduce their own (waterslide) transfer range, although like the kits these were not exactly cutting-edge (however the big wagon and coach sheets were something else!) The headcode characters were almost useless, although I did use them occasionally and 'thinned them down' with black paint after application, and the data panels were laughable but nothing else was available at the time:

 

Another 1970s transfer range came from Kemco, waterslide again and very good quality although there was no loco numbering on this sheet:

 

Anyone remember Peakside Products? This dry-print transfer sheet appeared in late 1978/early 1979 and could have been purposely designed to rectify the Kingsprint sheet's lack of modern image numbering as the artwork appears to be identical. It wasn't perfect - the large BR logos are slightly oversized and the silver numbers, while great for Hymeks, weren't suitable for the electric locomotives the silver arrow logos were presumably intended for! After obtaining a sheet by mail order in February 1979 I was surprised to find them on sale in a local shop (Trents) in 1982 so purchased a second sheet, which is the one below - this has lasted so long because most of my renumbering requirements since the 1990s have been met by Replica Railways dry-print number sets, however I still use both PP sheets from time to time as they are still working!:

 

During the 1980s other manufacturers joined in such as SMS (first with Large Logo/numbers?) and Howes of Oxford's Alfac comprehensive dry-print sheets - and it was onwards and upwards from there......

I'm also aware that the highly-regarded HMRS sheets have been around for a long time too.

Hope this is of interest!

Very informative - I have a sheet of the Kingsprint transfers - I didn't realise how old it was! I still have a couple of SMS sheets bought from W&H too. However, for whatever reason, it seemed quite common back in the day to see BR blue models renumbered TOPS using the 1950s/60s serif characters. It also happened in real life, at least for 24 065 which is documented and pictured with a TOPS number in those self-same obsolete serif characters.

[BernardTPM]

There were also the 'Modern' transfers in the PC Models range of Methfix and, later, Pressfix transfers. There was a smaller N version under the 'Cav'ndish' name (for W&H models, from memory).

[Halvarras]

5 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Me too - and I came up with most of the Woodhead Transfers range.

 

These were, IMHO, by far the best researched, designed and printed range of transfers ever produced up until that time and, when they ceased production, the inspiration for my own Cambridge Custom Transfers.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Good call - I have some of these excellent products still in the envelope they arrived in postmarked 17th May 1990, so I must have received them 32 years ago today! They were mostly used on my wagon fleet (I also have some BR coach lining) and worked in the same way as the PC/HMRS 'Pressfix' range. Superb. Unfortunately unlike the latter the adhesive dried out after a few years but I kept them in case there was a way to revive them. Also a handwritten note on the instruction sheet reminds me that my first order went missing in the post and I had to convince the proprietor that I wasn't trying to scam him! I promised him that if the first order ever arrived after the second I'd return the contents but it never did.

 

4 hours ago, andyman7 said:

it seemed quite common back in the day to see BR blue models renumbered TOPS using the 1950s/60s serif characters. It also happened in real life, at least for 24 065 which is documented and pictured with a TOPS number in those self-same obsolete serif characters.

 

The reappearance of the old block serif style numbers on TOPS renumbered locos in 1974, well over 7 years after they were supposed to have become obsolete, was quite a surprise! This was mainly a Scottish Region thing, OTTOMH 20039/116, 24065, 25217, 26005, 27024/27/28 and a handful of Class 08s including 08483/630/779/947 at Old Oak Common (which last time I looked wasn't in Scotland!) There were also some with mixed styles, e.g. 06008, 08316 and 27204. However these were preceded in the summer of 1971 by depot repaints to Laira's 826 Jupiter and Old Oak Common's 1660 City of Truro, both going backwards in terms of number style. 25217 was reallocated from Haymarket to Laira in October 1975 and went to work on Cornish china clay trains displaying its serif numbers, which it was to carry until the end of its days.

 

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

There were also the 'Modern' transfers in the PC Models range of Methfix and, later, Pressfix transfers. There was a smaller N version under the 'Cav'ndish' name (for W&H models, from memory).

 

I have an old PC 'Pressfix' BR steam era sheet inherited from a friend (it still works, just about) and a recently acquired BR sheet from HMRS - I've delved into my transfer box again to compare them and they are one and the same. I ordered the HMRS 'modern' sheet at the same time, a very nice production - I would assume that this is also the former PC sheet, which I never obtained (for some reason!)

Edited May 20, 2022 by Halvarras
System-generated mis-spelling!

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Whilst we've slightly sidetracked into vintage transfers!, anybody remember Donside water slide transfers, aka Donside Plastics Welding Ltd of Ticehurst?

I've got a sheet of SR numbers, headcodes and triangle for DEMU's.

I've never heard of them before or since, does anyone remember them and know of other products or their history re model railways? They are still on the go doing ringbinder systems. pages etc.

 

Mike.

[roythebus1]

The artwork for the Kings Cross transfer sheets was done by Alan Brackenborough. I remember seeing the raw artwork when I worked at the shop in 1968. there were several sheets of artwork for each set, each sheet being a different colour ink. they were done on a plastic-based tracing sheet with crosses at the corners to line the sheets up. ISTR the last sheet I saw was for LNWR loco lining, which could also be used for BR black steam loco lining.

 

I think Simon Kelly of this parish may be able to add more information on these.

Edited May 27, 2022 by roythebus1

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

The artwork for the Kings Cross transfer sheets was done by Alan Brackenborough. I remember seeing the raw artwork when I worked at the shop in 1968. there were several sheets of artwork for each set, each sheet being a different colour ink. they were done on a plastic-based tracing sheet with crosses at the corners to line the sheets up. ISTR the last sheet I saw was for LNWR loco lining, which could also be used for BR black steam loco lining.

 

I think Simon Kelly of this parish may be able to add more information on these.

Roy, completely off-topic but have you any idea why, on sheet 7 GWR Loco and Coach Insignia, the little power group letters only go from A to D not A to E?

[roythebus1]

Sorry I don't have a clue! I wasn't involved in the design or anything, I just sold the stuff and posted it.

[Steamport Southport]

On 19/05/2022 at 23:58, BernardTPM said:

There were also the 'Modern' transfers in the PC Models range of Methfix and, later, Pressfix transfers. There was a smaller N version under the 'Cav'ndish' name (for W&H models, from memory).

 

Oooh. I've still got a few half used sheets of Cav'ndish transfers somewhere. Totally forgot they even existed. Must have been about 1983 when I got mine as that was when I dabbled in N Gauge.

 

It was basically a sheet like the PC ones with the Big Four, BR steam and diesel logos and a few relevant numbers.

 

ISTR there is also a rolling stock one which had a few BR coach roundel logos, small double arrows, NE, GW, SR, LMS for wagons and loads of tiny numbers in white and cream, with some relevant letters.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited June 4, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[Halvarras]

Unmade MTK D600 Warship kit (D15) just posted on Elaine's Trains - link:

 

https://elaines-trains.co.uk/index.php?cat=28627

 

Ah, that takes me back to the first half of 1993.......mine was supplied as a body kit for fitting to an RTR chassis so the centre box and motor bracket weren't included. I had to request these from Colin M as I had Tri-ang EM2 motor and trailing bogies ready for it (I flattened one end of the bracket to support the trailing bogie).

 

Also available, unmade MTK Bulleid Kitchen and Restaurant car twin kit (C59) with rolled brass bodyshells.

 

No connection other than happy customer (currently working on a project obtained from Elaine! 😀)

[andyman7]

An update with a couple more MTK additions. These are a sort of antidote the to super-duper-whooper-detail sound-and-light fitted DCC Sound models that are prompting intense discussions as to the execution of every tiny tumblehome and seam. 

 

The 47 came to me via a stand at the last LT Museum Acton Depot open day. It needed some small repairs to detached glazing and buffers but otherwise will be left exactly 'as-is', an excellent example of 70s D&E modelling.

 

The 74 was one of a number of items picked up at an auction, there are a number of EMUs to attend to but this one just need some minor cosmetic repairs. It's on a LIma chassis with finer scale wheels fitted, very nicely done for it's time, normally I would go for a TOPS number but the period decals (numbers once again in wrong typeface) and data panel consisting of crudely printed dots are very much of the era.

 

[hayfield]

For everyone who lambasts these kits, there are those like you who embrace them for what they are

 

My one misgiving and what I think is a hole in the market is the lack of trade support for decent replacement chassis, which are few and far between

 

If you look at locos from the same era, many were initially designed for use with RTR chassis. The Triang/Hornby being one of the most used. Take the Wills Finecast Flatiron, initially designed to take said chassis. The new chassis from Southeastern Finecast just takes the model to a new level

 

I understand many locos can be improved simply by using a conversion wheelset, but is this a short term gain? As in many cases older RTR chassis do degrade over time, whether they are diesel/electric or steam. One thing their plastic bodied counterparts cannot do is match the sheer mass of a whitemetal loco

[andyman7]

Here's another MTK Class 47 - a supreme example of how fashions change in models. When this was built - late 70s I would guess - 'serious' modellers would look down their nose at someone using unaltered RTR - 'playing trains'. This instead would fit the bill as a 'proper' model, painstakingly built using a basic kit and upgrading, with twin Triang motors with all wheel pickup (that's the working wheels - the centre wheels are dummies); it has working screw couplings, separate wire handrails, etched plates, engine  room and underframe piping added plus etched centre roof grilles; it correctly has the ETH gear added to each end. Yet today, most 'serious' modellers would turn their nose up at it as a far inferior product to the latest Bachmann RTR Class 47 taken out of the box...

 

(BTW I'm not pretending it's superior to the Bachmann loco by any stretch - but in its own way it is rather lovely)

[andyman7]

Here's something a bit special - a built early MTK Class 45 kit fitted with the as-supplied Ks sourced twin motor bogies, in full working order! This has been sitting in the projects box for a while as it came to me part-disassembled but it's been straightforward to put it all back together, and I am very much going to keep it 'as is' with its vintage paint job.

 

Before the Mainline 'peak' appeared in late 1976, one of these on a layout would definitely have turned a few heads.

 

 

[cctransuk]

48 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Here's something a bit special - a built early MTK Class 45 kit fitted with the as-supplied Ks sourced twin motor bogies, in full working order! This has been sitting in the projects box for a while as it came to me part-disassembled but it's been straightforward to put it all back together, and I am very much going to keep it 'as is' with its vintage paint job.

 

Before the Mainline 'peak' appeared in late 1976, one of these on a layout would definitely have turned a few heads.

 

 

 

Notable that so many of these contemporary 'Modern Image' models used the then recently specified chocolate brown / maroon paint for the chassis.

 

My MTK three-car BRCW DMU was so adorned, and very smart it looked too.

 

CJI.

Edited August 25, 2022 by cctransuk

[Halvarras]

16 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Here's something a bit special - a built early MTK Class 45 kit fitted with the as-supplied Ks sourced twin motor bogies, in full working order! This has been sitting in the projects box for a while as it came to me part-disassembled but it's been straightforward to put it all back together, and I am very much going to keep it 'as is' with its vintage paint job.

 

Before the Mainline 'peak' appeared in late 1976, one of these on a layout would definitely have turned a few heads.

 

 

 

That's a decent job, although with 'operational' headcodes 45104 should be numbered at both ends! (Also OTOH it was a Class 46 lookalike with single h/c panels and exposed 'triangular' side grilles, in which case that kit would have been a better starting point. I recall the real 45104 was one of my very last required Peaks in my spotting days too.)

 

Do you think the builder has added the boiler compartment blanking panels? If not he must have got lucky with the length of those nameplates, they're obviously  a tight fit....... I ask because when I built my Class 46 in the early 1970s I finished it as 163 in blue before getting hold of the Kings Cross etched plates.......and then found they wouldn't fit because the boiler grille (exposed on the 46 kit) was way too close to the long side grille. I had to carve the boiler grilles away, which was a bit galling on an already painted model, and patch-paint these areas - I don't recall bothering to create new boiler grilles in plasticard though. On reflection I should have done D151 instead.......

[andyman7]

27 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

That's a decent job, although with 'operational' headcodes 45104 should be numbered at both ends! (Also OTOH it was a Class 46 lookalike with single h/c panels and exposed 'triangular' side grilles, in which case that kit would have been a better starting point. I recall the real 45104 was one of my very last required Peaks in my spotting days too.)

 

Do you think the builder has added the boiler compartment blanking panels? If not he must have got lucky with the length of those nameplates, they're obviously  a tight fit....... I ask because when I built my Class 46 in the early 1970s I finished it as 163 in blue before getting hold of the Kings Cross etched plates.......and then found they wouldn't fit because the boiler grille (exposed on the 46 kit) was way too close to the long side grille. I had to carve the boiler grilles away, which was a bit galling on an already painted model, and patch-paint these areas - I don't recall bothering to create new boiler grilles in plasticard though. On reflection I should have done D151 instead.......

Yes, I'm aware that as numbered it has some incorrect details. Also, being an ETH example the footsteps would have been panelled over. But it's a 1970s MTK kit, I have them as period pieces, and generally the ones that I acquire as period builds I leave as original as possible. Class 45s are definitely one of those models that should be based on photos of the example being modelled to ensure that the combination of grilles/headcodes/livery variations is correct.

 

The MTK 'Peak' sides are underscale between the main and small boiler grilles as you discovered - I have another MTK one that needed finishing and in that case I too had to carve off and move the grille to fit the nameplate on.

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

Notable that so many of these contemporary 'Modern Image' models used the then recently specified chocolate brown / maroon paint for the chassis.

Correct for coaches and MUs, though on locomotives the specified colour was black.

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

Correct for coaches and MUs, though on locomotives the specified colour was black.

 

Always thought it was odd that when they first joined the OO market both Airfix and Mainline used black on the underframes of their green Class 31 and Class 45 diesels respectively and brown on the blue versions. I wonder what prompted it, and whether it was purely coincidence that both new manufacturers did this. One would have thought that moulding all underframes and bogie frames in black would have saved a bit of money and simplified assembly and parts holdings.....

[47164]

No doubt the MTk v/s mainline Peak debate has many corners, the latter looks very toy like without flush glazing. The photo might be of interest by way of a comparison, the mainline model being one I picked up recently with an approach to glazing I have not seen before which works very well , and the MTK model uses the kit supplied glazing.

Personally I like the mtk model with its weight, and although perhaps a little narrow v/s the mainline appearing a little tubby, the former was very good for its time and one of colins better offerings.