RMweb Premium acg5324 Posted February 14, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2019 There used to be several SAGA Holidays trains running around in the 1970's and 80's the one I'm interested in is the Newcastle to Eastbourne working that also ran on other days of the week to Torquay, Margate, Portsmouth and Newquay. Does anyone have a stock book showing the formation of the train. The only photo I have shows BG, 4 x SK or TSO, CK, BSK, CK, 4x SK or TSO. I know it ran via Derby then presumably via Birmingham and the Thames Valley. I have it marked via Olympia for some years but I have a feeling it also ran via Guildford. The return working from Eastbourne must have used a different set of coaches as it departed only an hour or so after the inwards service left Newcastle. TIA Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
balders Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) I noted two at Coventry station on consecutive Saturday mornings- 23rd and 27th April 1983 behind 85018 and 85006 respectively. Both marked up with SAGA stickers. However it was all MK1 FO's with a BFK in the middle of the rake.....3131, 3098, 3115, 3107, 14019, 3134, 3117, 3119 and 3133. However i didn't note the destination but i believe it was South coast somewhere. Regards Guy Edited February 14, 2019 by balders Addition of text 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted February 14, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) The BR(M) workings for 1985 list the following train formation: BSK TSO TSO TSO TSO TSO TSO TSO TSO NEA The same train (Heaton based) ran: Newquay to Newcastle on Thursdays, Penzance to Newcastle on Mondays Portsmouth to Newcastle on Wednesday - no NEA/BG was used on Wednesday. The 1981 & 1982 BR(E) workings lists the following working between Newcastle and Eastborne with: BG SK SK SK SK SK BSK SK SK SK SK (BG at south bound end of train) Edited February 14, 2019 by Steven B 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium acg5324 Posted February 14, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Steven B said: The BR(M) workings for 1985 list the following train formation: BSK TSO TSO TSO TSO TSO TSO TSO TSO NEA The same train (Heaton based) ran: Newquay to Newcastle on Thursdays, Penzance to Newcastle on Mondays Portsmouth to Newcastle on Wednesday - no NEA/BG was used on Wednesday. The 1981 & 1982 BR(E) workings lists the following working between Newcastle and Eastborne with: BG SK SK SK SK SK BSK SK SK SK SK (BG at south bound end of train) Thank you for that Steven. Edited February 14, 2019 by acg5324 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) Tuesday 2 Sep 1980, at Rochester, down at 1528, presumably heading for Margate/Ramsgate, and noted as SAGA: loco 33060 with coaches 81004 26090 26024 26216 26051 24994 35499 25860 25851 26194 26034, headcode C9. Notably, all 2nd class. Tantalisingly, my notes say there was a SAGA working with the same headcode, but up at 1045 the previous two years on the corresponding day. Can't find those notes at the moment. Another edit, a week later, Tues 9 Sep 1980 at Rochester, up at 1047: 33055 with 24852 25820 25648 26188 35354 26187 26143 24515 25205 24980 80601 and headcode C9 again. Another edit, Thu 11 Sep 1980, at Tonbridge, down at 1343: 33055 with 24980 25205 24515 26143 26187 35354 26188 25648 25820 24852 81430, headcode 07 almost the same rake of coaches as 2 days ago above! Tues 23 Sep 1980, at Rochester, up at 1046, noted as SAGA (probably had stickers in the windows?): 33208 with 81004 25091 25005 26032 26045 26216 35499 26031 26054 25851 26194, headcode C9, same BG as the first working closely followed at 1109 up by an MLV+CEP+VEP formation: 68008 7201 7860, headcode 40, also noted as SAGA Tues 30 Sep 1980, at Rochester in time for 1045, but no loco-hauled, only an EMU formation up at 1106: 6800x 7207 7857 7177, headcode 40, noted as SAGA No notes after that, as I was off to university. Edited February 14, 2019 by eastwestdivide 2nd class, additional workings 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium acg5324 Posted February 15, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2019 Looks like I’ll have to get some more SKs! thanks for all the info everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Just to add to my post above, I found my SEG headcodes book from the period. 07 at Tonbridge not listed 40 was Victoria-Herne Hill-Meopham-Margate C9 was Clapham Jn (WL)-Herne Hill-Meopham-Ramsgate But remembering that a train didn't have to traverse the entire route to be able to use the headcode, the C9s could still have been Margate-bound. I guess the loco change to a 33 on those services would have been on West London line at Clapham Jn, as the coaches were ER. Also, the coaches I listed above were mostly vacuum-brake+steam heat (= no heat with a 33 on the front) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Sandpiper Posted February 15, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2019 Can't help you with the train formation but during the period I was familiar with it the return working ran via Hastings and Ashford. It was always worked by a class 33 as anything else was too heavy for the bridge over the River Rother at Rye. The loco had to work pretty hard up the bank out of Hastings. I don't know which way it was routed after Ashford. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 The SR did like to give their 33s a fair load by today's standards - the 11 coaches on the Margate workings would have been a slow run up the 1 in 100 from Rochester to Sole Street, but it was common enough to see a single 33 with that kind of load on summer excursions to the Kent coast. Equally so on freight with a single 33 on 10x100T tanks for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy water Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Any pictures? What were the size of the window labels? Would they be too small to see in 4mm? would there be Zimmer frames and walking sticks hanging out of the window? Just like the football ex trains that had toilet rolls flying in the wind! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy water Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) https://www.flickr.com/photos/53299842@N08/6302591695/in/photolist-fHaxVB-2aUW7Uj-bQX5cn-behBUa-28K3Hfi-23wGsid-bAHLiS-pfA7zC-dTX9Bx-eFn3m5-coeUg1-edBkjY-pmjN8a-QSD5tZ-25AgVSw-dVQpAn-pjyf3D-fNuDWq-aAWqW4-BLuuVp-mTF8hf-hV2EXs-7Z4rvG-nnAD7q-niemVN-21d7ta8-G9PUbi-fkznA5-QtuAeX-5ZHxYt-238dDzt-oJw7KU-6wj1b1-arSSsV-5rkX1b-931C8Z-fKZ8oY-8dbsgV-qSv2Jc-ppgSRk-2d8bCN2-fCwb7U-ch86hm-arsaA5-9ZpY3D-Q8B5rh-dxxKNP-87h6t4-ZYsFWK-HFKExH Edited February 15, 2019 by muddy water 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy water Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 https://www.flickr.com/photos/d1059/6956477188/in/photolist-bAHLiS-cRCXNd-a1cSkX-rFEumV-M7hxqh One grey head out of the window! But no stickers visable! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 I don't remember the stickers - in my earlier post, it was a question as to how I knew it was definitely SAGA, rather than a statement. It's possible I'd heard on the grapevine, but balders' post above also refers to stickers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Hall Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 On 14/02/2019 at 08:57, acg5324 said: There used to be several SAGA Holidays trains running around in the 1970's and 80's the one I'm interested in is the Newcastle to Eastbourne working that also ran on other days of the week to Torquay, Margate, Portsmouth and Newquay. Does anyone have a stock book showing the formation of the train. The only photo I have shows BG, 4 x SK or TSO, CK, BSK, CK, 4x SK or TSO. I know it ran via Derby then presumably via Birmingham and the Thames Valley. I have it marked via Olympia for some years but I have a feeling it also ran via Guildford. The return working from Eastbourne must have used a different set of coaches as it departed only an hour or so after the inwards service left Newcastle. TIA Andy Just been alerted to this topic from wnxx forum https://www.wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29700 where the topic is similarly being discussed. The Newcastle to Eastbourne re-commenced in 1981 and ran on early / late season Summer Saturdays until 1985. Previous to that the Saturday train had run to/from Folkestone from 1976 to 1980. Prior to that it had run to/from Eastbourne in 1974/1975. The set of coaches went ecs to Margate after arriving from Newcastle and were used to form the Tuesday return SAGA from there to Newcastle. When that ceased they went ecs to Fratton to form the Wednesday return SAGA from Portsmouth Harbour. The set of coaches for the return train from Eastbourne arrived ecs from Fratton having previously formed the Wednesday Newcastle - Portsmouth Harbour SAGA. I'm not sure of the precise routing on the Southern, however it does appear to have been via Ashford, Rye and Hastings. A peculiarity was that in 1975 the inward train ran to Rye, reversing at Eastbourne, so presumably was routed via Haywards Heath. Routing off the Southern was via the Midland Main Line and Derby until 1982 with a locomotive change at Brent, not sure about 1983, but for the final two years at least it ran via the WCML and Birmingham with a locomotive change at Mitre Bridge. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Steve Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 (edited) On 15/02/2019 at 11:54, muddy water said: Any pictures? What were the size of the window labels? Would they be too small to see in 4mm? would there be Zimmer frames and walking sticks hanging out of the window? Just like the football ex trains that had toilet rolls flying in the wind! These were the labels used to signify SAGA specials. Edited March 31, 2022 by SP Steve 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Hall Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 The 1975 ER CWN gives the formation of the Eastbourne/Rye train as 4TSO,RU,BSO,4TSO,BG. My recollection of the Newcastle SAGA's in that era is that the BG was for luggage and it wasn't always a BR design example. I vividly recall seeing one of the few remaining LNER design examples on one of the trains and might even be able to locate the number. LMSR design examples probably put in appearances as well. If my recollections aren't muddled I'm sure the RU was occasionally a Gresley or Thompson RB, certainly the Gresley bogied RU's were regulars. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Known to railway staff as Send A Granny Away, but what did SAGA actually mean ........ unless it really did mean that! The whole concept seems somehow immensely old-fashioned now, yet it was only c40 years ago. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium acg5324 Posted August 27, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 27, 2020 From my CB WTTs 1976-7 1O43 1000TO YRKMAR via Brent and Kew 1O43 1000SO YRKFKW ditto 1E12 0955TO MARYRK via Kew and Brent 1E28 1002SO FKWYRK ditto 1979-80 1O43 0721TO NCLMAR via Kew and Brent 1O43 0721SO NCLFKW ditto 1E12 0955TO MARNCL via Kew and Brent 1E12 1002SO FKWNCL ditto 1982-83 1O43 0818SO NCLEBN via Brent and Kew 1E12 0849SO EBNNCL ditto 1983-84 1O43 0735SO NCLEBN via Brent and Kew 1E12 0849SO EBNNCL ditto 1984-85 1O43 0810SO NCLEBN via WCML and WLL 1E12 1010SO EBNNCL ditto MAR Margate FKW Folkestone West YRK York NCL Newcastle EBN Eastbourne. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium acg5324 Posted August 27, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 27, 2020 (edited) SAGA appears not to stand for anything. Shame.....always liked the Send A Granny Away moniker. Edited August 27, 2020 by acg5324 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Steve Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 The following SAGA services / formations were in operation in 1979: 1V87 MO 08:23 Edinburgh - Torquay BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1S84 MO 12:02 Torquay - Edinburgh BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1V84 MO 07:21 Newcastle - Torquay NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 MO 13:35 Torquay - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O43 TO 07:21 Newcastle - Margate NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 TO 09:55 Margate - Newcastle NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1O21 WO 07:21 Newcastle - Portsmouth Harbour NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 WO 11:15 Portsmouth Harbour - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O21 ThO 13:45 Birmingham New St - Bournemouth BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1M00 ThO 11:08 Bournemouth - Birmingham New St BSK-SK-SK-SK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1V84 ThO 07:21 Newcastle - Newquay NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 ThO 09:20 Newquay - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O43 SO 07:21 Newcastle - Folkestone NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 SO 10:02 Folkestone - Newcastle NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO Additionally SAGA ran a couple of WR themed services but I don't have the relevant stock details to hand: 1B04 MO 14:48 London Paddington - Torquay 1A53 MO 09:45 Torquay - London Paddington 1B60 ThO 11:34 London Paddington - Newquay 1A69 ThO 08:35 Newquay - London Paddington 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 My recollection of the period is that there were some similar special trains for Golden Rail. The Golden Rail concept had been intended to help fill existing trains but some destinations became so popular that special trains, much akin to the SAGA ones, had to be run. I have a feeling that some of these Golden Rail trains may have been composed of FOs. Like many good things, Golden Rail disappeared in the run up to privatisation, I have a note that I last went on a Golden Rail weekend during the autumn of 1987 although that didn't involve a special train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted August 27, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2020 6 hours ago, Nearholmer said: Known to railway staff as Send A Granny Away, but what did SAGA actually mean ........ unless it really did mean that! Slightly different from what the staff on our line called it, but this is a family show. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Hall Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 Thanks acg5324. Confirms the route was MML until 1983 and WCML for the final two Summers of 1984/1985. Locomotive changes I'm fairly confident took place at Brent and Mitre Bridge respectively. This allowed the same Class 33 to be used for both trains on the Southern. The sightings provided by eastwestdivide are very useful all be they of the Margate train, but very much reflect the formation of the Eastbourne train at the time. Such sightings have rarely been published as have photographs of the trains on the Southern 33055 on Thu 11 Sep 1980 was almost certainly on the Fratton - Folkestone East ecs. This was the positioning move for the stock off the previous days Newcastle - Portsmouth Harbour which would then work the Folkestone - West - Newcastle on the Saturday. The norm was that the set arriving in Newcastle would then form the next SAGA departure from there and this explains why it was the same stock seen two days earlier at Rochester. The BG was solely for luggage and frequently changed as already mentioned. The ER WTT shows 1O43 running TO 2 Sep - 16 Sep and 1E12 9 Sep - 23 Sep in late Summer 1980 which probably explains why it wasn't seen on 30 Sep. With regard to this train 1n 1973/74/75 the ER WTT shows the outward running to Folkestone (West) and return starting at Margate. In those years I'm presuming it was routed clockwise around the Kent Coast in both directions with passengers for both resorts and perhaps others between. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 I have this noted as a Newcastle to Paignton SAGA service. Bristol Temple Meads with 45017 at the head of a Thursday Only Newcastle to Paignton SAGA service, 18/6/81 cheers 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SED Freightman Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) The following workings appear in various sections of the SR WTT of Mandatory Services, dated 02/05/1977 to 07/05/1978. Edited after a trawl through more WTT's has revealed that the ECS was stabled at Margate from Saturday to Tuesday and Folkestone East from Thursday to Saturday. Use of Folkestone West would have allowed a leisurely transfer of passengers to and from road transport in the same way that the VSOE has operated in recent years, although back in the 70's other trains could pass on the Fast Lines. Interestingly both northbound services called at Herne Hill to load stores, presumably catering supplies. 1E12 0955 (TO) Margate to York - Arr. ? Headcode C9 Operated until 14/06/1977 also 06/09/1977 to 18/10/1977 Ran via Chatham, Bromley South, Herne Hill (1135-1139 to load stores), Clapham Junction, Kew East Jn. 1O43 0931 (TO) York to Margate - Arr.1619 Headcode C9 Operated until 07/06/1977 also 30/08/1977 to 11/10/1977 Ran via Kew East Jn, Clapham Junction, Nunhead, Bromley South, Chatham. 5O43 1642 (TO) Margate to Fratton Yard - Arr. 2110 Headcode C8 to Clapham Jn, thence 07. Operated until 07/06/1977 also 06/09/1977 to 11/10/1977 Ran via Canterbury West, Orpington, Herne Hill, Clapham Junction, Hounslow, Woking, Guildford. 5E12 1056 (ThO) Fratton Yard to Folkestone East - Arr. 1616 Headcode 07 to Clapham Jn, thence C8 (SWD WTT shows forward as C9). Operated until 09/06/1977 also 08/09/1977 to 13/10/1977 Ran via Guildford, Woking, Wimbledon, East Putney, Clapham Junction, Herne Hill, Orpington, Ashford, Dover Marine (1455 - 1605). 5E12 0945 (SO) Folkestone East to Folkestone West - Arr. 0949 Headcode C8 Operated until 11/06/1977 also 10/09/1977 to 22/10/1977 1E12 1002 (SO) Folkestone West to York - Arr. ? Headcode C8 Operated until 11/06/1977 also 10/09/1977 to 22/10/1977 Ran via Ashford (1018-1027), Tonbridge, Orpington, Herne Hill (1135-1139 to load stores), Clapham Junction, Kew East Jn. 1043 0931 (SO) York to Folkestone West - Arr. 1630 Headcode C5 Operated until 04/06/1977 also 03/09/1977 to 15/10/1977 Ran via Kew East Jn, Clapham Junction, Nunhead, Bromley South, Maidstone East, Ashford (1603-1613). 5O43 1645 (SO) Folkestone West to Margate - Arr. 1751 Headcode C8 Operated until 04/06/1977 also 03/09/1977 to 15/10/1977 Ran via Deal. Edited February 27, 2021 by SED Freightman Additional services added 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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