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What make is this motor


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I brought this off Ebay, thinking it may be a Hornby or Hornby replacement. The picture was not too good. Has anyone got an idea of the make, and is it any good please.

 

post-1131-127238793079_thumb.jpg

 

Romford gears fot it, but its a little bigger in size than most motors

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Looks like a Triang X04, or possibly a Romford with the metal around the bushes cut back to fit in a loco.

 

The later X04's had a steel plate by the magnet, this one looks to be brass.

 

The magnet looks as if it has a groove at the back for the screw to hold the two plates togther, all the X04's I have seen had a hole down the middle.

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It is not a Tri-ang,(Rovex or Zenith) they never made one with the plastic end as far as I know, Romford Phantom springs to mind as it appears to be five pole, they used plastic and mazak cast ends. I do not think it's Trix, the details on those were distinctive, and it's not Pittman unless made for another make.

 

 

Should work well, clean and check commutator is true running and the gaps are clear, and lube bearings with Labelle grease with a spot of thick oil added. Unless the bearings have gone( they are replaceable), should run very well, but adjust the spring on the brushes till running is smooth.

 

Stephen.

 

 

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It is a Phantom, a Romford five pole, as Penlan pointed, out the end housing has been cut back to thin it, disguising the end somewhat, I did not notice in the shot till enlarged. The spring on the end is Romford design, the original was a Zenith design bought by Romfords in the early 1950's.

Some Phantoms had an integral gearbox in mazak on the end of the motor, these were in the 1950's, this type with pressed steel poles were from the 1970's.

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Airfix from either the 41XX or the 14XX, circa late 70s.

 

Could be, although I thought the brush gear was like Tri-ang, on the side on the HK made Airfix as distinct from MRRC. The hair spring retained by a brass stud was Romford design, used on the side in the 1950's and on the end in the 1970's......could be Airfix used Romford outline, ..was the Airfix a five pole in the locos from Hong Kong?

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That was quick, my initial was that it might be the motor that goes into the Airfix (GMR) RTR Prairie (have not got one to compare), or is it the type that goes onto the Mainline 55xx ? It is a 5 pole motor and without any cleaning it seems to work well.

 

I have an old W&H book and it looks nothing like a Phantom picture and I also thing its not that old

 

Tim thanks short and sweet, if it an Airfix are they any good ? will it be of use in am etched or bar type chassis? or would I be better off selling it as spares for the locos it was used in.

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That was quick, my initial was that it might be the motor that goes into the Airfix RTR Prairie (have not got one to compair), or is it the type that goes onto the Mainline 55xx ? It is a 5 pole motor and without any cleaning it seems to work well.

 

I have an old W&H book and it looks nothing like a Phantom picture and I also thing its not that old

(Phantoms came in about 10 variations over 30 years!)

 

But

Found it, it is the Airfix, as Tim V said, it has the plastic frame etc, and the hairspring brush springs as well, HK made motor for Airfix, by Johnson motors.

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That same style motor was used in the Mainline and Dapol N2. Have one from each maker, smooth control, very good torque, sounds like a coffee grinder, keeps going forever. The Mainline motor is still running after the plastic N2 chassis wore out; it then powered an 800g 9F until the chassis on that wore out, and is still on its' original brushes, and bearings which are no more slack than when purchased. (Have thoughts of stuffing both motors into an old Rivarossi Big Boy for independent control of the two driven chassis.)

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That same style motor was used in the Mainline and Dapol N2. Have one from each maker, smooth control, very good torque, sounds like a coffee grinder, keeps going forever. The Mainline motor is still running after the plastic N2 chassis wore out; it then powered an 800g 9F until the chassis on that wore out, and is still on its' original brushes, and bearings which are no more slack than when purchased. (Have thoughts of stuffing both motors into an old Rivarossi Big Boy for independent control of the two driven chassis.)

 

If any open frame motor is noisy on it's own, it is the commutator that is eccentric and rhythmically vibrating the brushes, can be cured by skimming in a lathe, but minor adjustment of the brushes may help, also make sure the bearings are good, or add miniature ball races.

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Looks like a Jouef (Is that how you spell it?) I had two of these brought back from France by a friend many years ago. I don't think that I ever used them. Might still be around somewhere. I must look I have a box of discarded/defunct motors stacked amongst the junked bits. It certainly is not Airfix/MRRC or Triang.

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The Joueff motors I have to hand have coil spring brushes, tubular mounted , with brass caps, but have the same magnet with the broken edge, so I don't think Joueff is the maker. They did do quite nice motors at times, and were the worlds first to market coreless motors.

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All older motors will take these magnets, neodymium, available widely on Ebay, just pick a size smaller than the original size and pack with steel plate or shim to a tight fit, and that's it. Occasionally the motors are noisier, especially with three pole, but much more powerful.

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My first thoughts were mid-70s Airfix. It appears to have been 'got at' around the brush gear. I have several of these, but none to hand at the moment (as usual).

I can confirm the superiority of neodymium magnets, but prefer to use a magnet smaller than original (I bought a quantity of 3/8" - or are they 5mm? - cubes on eBay. Two of these will replace most 1/2" motor magnets to the benefit of all concerned.

 

The demonstration in the link is rather loaded. If the motor shown draws a high current (over 300mA), the magnet is clapped, which is confirmed by its inability to support more than a steel rule. Removing it from the motor won't have done it any good either. (Another advantage of neodymium magnets. They are typically 5-10 times as strong as Alnico and don't lose their strength out of a magnetic circuit.

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In the early 1970s I bought some 5 pole open frame motors which were advertised as an upgrade/replacement for the X04. They were sold under the brand name of MW005 and the company was MW Developments. I still have one tucked away in a drawer somewhere that's new and unused! As others have said, Romford and Pitman also had their X04 clones.

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These old 5-pole motors can still be useful. I have a notion that, modified with the neodymium magnets mentioned above, they would go well in diesels, where space is less of an issue, combined with flywheels and the usual gear towers that everyone has nowadays.

 

Pittman in a Drewry 04 shunter, for example?

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Notes on the makers of open framed style Motors for railways.

 

 

The MW was developed out of the MRRC version of the Zenith X04, and all featured the right spacing, width, and mounting tabs for direct fitting to Lines Bros Tri-ang chassis.

 

 

The Pittman motors had no relation to Zenith, who started in the late 1940's, after Pittman, and Pittman's layout was copied a lot.

 

Another 1940's maker was Taycol in the UK, who designed from scratch, and were industrial makers as well. They made Hamblings motors, and made some motors branded for others like Romford, who were only concerned will Model Railways and were sold by W&H models. Most Taycol were 7 pole motors, but 5 pole when made for others.

 

The originator of the "X04" style was Mantua in the States in the late 1930's, they were the first 5 pole 12 volt motors, and were made for 60 years.

 

Pittman started in O Gauge, but scaled down the designs to offer a higher quality version of the more basic Mantua in HO about 1946 and continued for about 50 years, (still in motor business).

 

The next maker to improve design was Bob Lindsay in the States who designed the Ringfield 7 pole units with Skewed slots, a patented design still the standard in small motors. He also used cast magnet with poles incorporated, another first for model design. He worked in HO motor design till his death in the mid 1950's

 

The next change was the pressure of TT scale, which lead to all makers reducing the sizes, for instance Romford's Terrier.

 

The Zenith Model Company made motors in Margate and were taken over by Lines Bros to make motors for Tri-ang, they also made other motors for a while in the 1940's , all ball raced seven pole, and were the Rolls Royce of motors.

 

Unfortunately Tri-ang just needed a very cheap motor and the X series was the result, cost drive 3 pole design , but at least reliable.

 

But the drive for better made alternatives was on, and all the clones were made from about 1958 or so.

 

The other makes worth using in this open style are the German made Trix, wider than Tri-ang, but well made, Buhler made copies, used by many makers, and the numerous Japanese 5 pole clones of Pittman, from KTM, NWSL, Johnson, Mabuchi and other FE makers.

 

The FE clones with 3 poles are generally poor, the 5 usually much better, very few 7 pole were made outside the States.

 

The only other unique design of motor for model use was Keyser's K series, a wonderful 5 pole design, but ruined and plagued by poor quality control. It could fit Tri-ang as well as the kits K's made. I was told that the design came from Taycol, but was altered to lower cost by K's. This motor was made for about 30 years.

 

Slot cars spawned motor design, the Tri-ang slot cars motors used X series motors, and others like Model Road Racing cars(MRRC), made slot and railway motors, owned by Airfix, who entered making model railways in the late 1970's.

 

Another maker that was unique and does occasionally turn up was VIP, who made 6 pole designs for slot cars and trains for a while. I believe they also made the Castle Arts Gaiety motor, a 5 pole split field design, a very advanced design, but poorly made to lower costs.

 

Graham Farish used open framed 5 pole motors in OO models, made by Pittman in the 1940's and Buhler and others in the later years.

 

Hornby stood aside from all of this, they made their own motors with the exception of buying in the design for Ringfield for the Castle, based on a Robert Lindsay design for Varney in the States.

 

Varney initially used Lindsay designs, but changed to Pittman designs in the 1950's , turning to FE clones of Pittman to lower costs about 1959.

 

This covers most types of motor in the style of Mantua, the originator of the type that the X0-4 is based on.

 

There were other ideas, Stewart Reidpath, AC motors, KTM stack designs, and the modern coreless motors.

 

Mashima are basically traditional designs, just using finer coils, and better magnets, but exactly the same basics from the 1940's. They do make coreless, as well as other specialist designs.

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Hi John,

What you have is definately one of the original Airfix r-t-r motors. In the 14xx they were a powerful unit, usually let down by the universal joint & nylon gears which wore out at an alarming rate.. I used to get lots of them in for repair, when the bits were available... Though, as you point oit, they're rather large, they are fine motors with plenty of grunt, & would be ideal for powering something largish.. Use a gear ratio of 30 or 40:1 with them as there's lots of torque, but they don't like to rev too high..

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The Joueff motors have to hand have coil spring brushes, tubular mounted , with brass caps, but have the same magnet with the broken edge, o I don'y think Joueff is the maker. They did do quite nice motors at times, and were the worlds first to market coreless motors.

 

I have just dug out my two Jouef motors and, yes, you are correct they did have different (plunger) brushes placed top and bottom rather than on the sides. It was the magnet that made me think Jouef. They are obviously broken off from a long bar chocolate block fashion.

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