All new RTR Class 91 and Mark 4 carriages

[wombatofludham]

For those hoping Hornby will now break the sound barrier bringing Mk4 coaches to the market, dream on.  Their rather nice HST power cars have been out donkey's years and apart from very niche sliding door versions for the contemporary liveries, the other releases are still having to be paired with their neither fish nor fowl 1990s Mk3s including some lightly retouched Lima tools from the 1980s, and even then sometimes turn up with missing detail.  Yet they seem to be happy festooning the kettleistas with more types of Pullman than Pullman probably ever had at one time in extreme detail, and the LNER tea urn lovers with not one but two types of non corridor stock with complex faux teak finishes.

Now, if the 91 boiled water it would be a different matter, but given the glacial lack of urgency to bring forward a complete range of top spec Mk3 stock for their high end power cars to haul, I think there will be snowdrifts freezing the cojones off El Diablo before you get a nice rake of detailed Mk4s from Margate.

[Northmoor MPD]

Sad news! I really wanted the Cavalex “For the Fallen” and the “Battle of Britain” locos, I don’t even model electrics or indeed that era.

Probably won’t bother with the Hornby one now either, plus they won’t do the BoB one again as they’ve already done it as a limited edition in the old tooling.

Shame  

[RBE]

7 hours ago, sanspareil said:

I am reading between lines but I assume a lot of the pre-orders must have fallen away and is the reason for the dropping of project 225 or they just looked at the potential worst case going forwards thus pulled to play it safe.

 

On the contrary, you could count on the fingers of one hand the amount of people who backed out when asked to confirm their orders last week. It was an amazing show of support for the project and we could not have asked for more however due to the potential risk from Hornby moving forward we have made this decision in order to protect both ourselves from further losses and the modelling community from any potential losses in this case.

[spamcan61]

4 hours ago, Andy Mac said:

From memory when I placed my expressions of interest, it was the modellers who would have been putting up 50% as a deposit and the other 50% before production would commence,  So as far as I could see, we the modellers would have been financing the majority of this project.

Obviously Cavalex would still be risking far more money than any individual modeller; so hardly surprising they've taken this decision.

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

While Rails & Hattons have a bit more financial muscle to take on Hornby I doubt Cavalex do, so no doubt as intended by Hornby they will be reluctant to take on another that they will stomp on. I can understand protecting your range but it does smell a bit to leave it until they were so far along and then show obviously rushed prints. 
I’m torn as Hornby needed and we wanted them to up their game but they better produce a corker or they are going to look even crappier for doing it like this. 

 

However good the Hornby model is (if it ever comes), that will not make up for the shabby behaviour. If Hornby had had earlier intentions to renew their 91, they could have quietly told Cavalex at a much earlier stage in the process.

 

I understand the guys' decision but perhaps a stand needed to be made to prevent Hornby behaving like this again. I would not expect Cavalex to take on the risk alone but it could have been suitable for crowdfunding.

 

Is a complaint to the relevant authority (used to be Monopolies Commission) a starter. Hornby must have a large enough percentage of the market to be referred possibly (more than 25% iirc).

[Colin_McLeod]

And what would your complaint say?

 

Hornby is competing with Cavalex!

 

Hardly a breach of the law.

 

 

[Legend]

3 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

For those hoping Hornby will now break the sound barrier bringing Mk4 coaches to the market, dream on.  Their rather nice HST power cars have been out donkey's years and apart from very niche sliding door versions for the contemporary liveries, the other releases are still having to be paired with their neither fish nor fowl 1990s Mk3s including some lightly retouched Lima tools from the 1980s, and even then sometimes turn up with missing detail.  Yet they seem to be happy festooning the kettleistas with more types of Pullman than Pullman probably ever had at one time in extreme detail, and the LNER tea urn lovers with not one but two types of non corridor stock with complex faux teak finishes.

Now, if the 91 boiled water it would be a different matter, but given the glacial lack of urgency to bring forward a complete range of top spec Mk3 stock for their high end power cars to haul, I think there will be snowdrifts freezing the cojones off El Diablo before you get a nice rake of detailed Mk4s from Margate.

 

I think probably you are correct with a slow if ever release of Mk4s . In fact you might get revamped existing ones .  But there is a difference between Mk3s and mk4 markets . While the Mk4 seems initially limited they have already carried at least 4 liveries and as has been said above there are possible new applications with Blackpool services and Wales .   The mk 3 market hands loads of liveries but it’s also fairly crowded . There’s Hornby themselves , of course , and as they are selling existing models without difficulty, possibly wonder why they need a new range . Then of course we have Oxford and beyond that loads of second hand Lima ( I stuck with Lima for ScotRail liveried ones as colour wise they are a closer match ) . So Mk3 market much more crowded. So I wouldn’t give up on Mk4s just yet . 

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

I think probably you are correct with a slow if ever release of Mk4s . In fact you might get revamped existing ones .  But there is a difference between Mk3s and mk4 markets . While the Mk4 seems initially limited they have already carried at least 4 liveries and as has been said above there are possible new applications with Blackpool services and Wales .   The mk 3 market hands loads of liveries but it’s also fairly crowded . There’s Hornby themselves , of course , and as they are selling existing models without difficulty, possibly wonder why they need a new range . Then of course we have Oxford and beyond that loads of second hand Lima ( I stuck with Lima for ScotRail liveried ones as colour wise they are a closer match ) . So Mk3 market much more crowded. So I wouldn’t give up on Mk4s just yet . 

 

Unless for display in a cabinet, on its own, I can't see why anyone would buy a new Hornby 91 unless they have produced the carriages to go with it. Indeed, I would even suggest a boycott.

 

It reminds me of a Jouef rep coming into my shop with a very nice scale model of one of the TGVs, driving motor cars and motor cars. "Isn't it a wonderful model?, he said. "Yes, probably the best Jouef has ever done," I replied. "How many will you be ordering?" "None. My customers are modellers and will want the rest of the train".

 

And I was right too. The matching trailers never arrived, just like most of the Hornby Eurostar.

[RJennings]

I think ultimately I am not surprised by yesterdays news about the Class 91 / Mk4s in OO.

 

I had admittedly hung back on responding to the e-mail a few weeks about confirming my pre-order mainly on the basis on whether the Mk4s were going ahead and the pricing of these - Personally would have ordered full sets of each (With sound fitted to the 91s). Yes, never going to enough room to run it fully but its good to see new entrants come to the market with something rather iconic like this and willing to do all the different variations form the outset. My other concern since the Hornby announcement was the 50% deposit payment and the now the choice between 2 manufactures - Unfortunately having been 'bitten' and lost money elsewhere the choice is go for a new entrant (With a high deposit) or go for the stablished brand with no deposit but knowingly will see the product released within a year but know that I could not end in a situation of loosing any money on it if it was cancelled.

 

All said and done I wish you guys all the best going forward and hope you announce something that is of interest to me as and when :-)

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by RJennings

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

they could have quietly told Cavalex at a much earlier stage in the process.

Aside from sailing very close to collusion laws, having a quiet word doesnt flag to anyone else what the likely reaction will be if they take on Hornby.

 

I have every sympathy with Cavalex but at least this way others might think twice before investing in a competing model, whereas if this had not come out, it would just have happened again.

 

At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, this is just how business works. It is ruthless but remember no one forces anyone to enter the market.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Bucoops]

Sad news but totally understandable. My one was going to be just one 91 - well outside of my modelling era and location, but I would like a line up of ECML thoroughbreds.

 

I don't intend to buy a Hornby one - I prefer to support small hobbyist companies. I don't have anything against Hornby, just can't get excited by a 91 from them. So I guess I've saved myself £250

[RBE]

38 minutes ago, RJennings said:

I think ultimately I am not surprised by yesterdays news about the Class 91 / Mk4s in OO.

 

I had admittedly hung back on responding to the e-mail a few weeks about confirming my pre-order mainly on the basis on whether the Mk4s were going ahead and the pricing of these - Personally would have ordered full sets of each (With sound fitted to the 91s). Yes, never going to enough room to run it fully but its good to see new entrants come to the market with something rather iconic like this and willing to do all the different variations form the outset. My other concern since the Hornby announcement was the 50% deposit payment and the now the choice between 2 manufactures - Unfortunately having been 'bitten' and lost money elsewhere the choice is go for a new entrant (With a high deposit) or go for the stablished brand with no deposit but knowingly will see the product released within a year but know that I could not end in a situation of loosing any money on it if it was cancelled.

 

All said and done I wish you guys all the best going forward and hope you announce something that is of interest to me as and when :-)

 

 

Again I would refer you to my post a few pages back. We do not take money until the project is 100% going ahead. Hence why no money had yet been taken for project 225. Had we asked for money it would have been produced.

 

With all respect to our community I would politely ask that people posting on social media regarding the potential losses of money when dealing with Cavalex to please make themselves conversant with how we operate before doing so so as not to give others who are not in the know the impression of a high risk of financial loss.

 

As a small company consising of a couple of modellers who do this in their spare time between their main jobs, I don't think it too much to ask that the return of all of the hard work an time put into projects upto the point of cutting tools be rewarded by some form of commitment by customers that the models being produced will be sold and thus allow us to carry on producing models for the community moving forward.

 

Regards

Cav

[Legend]

14 minutes ago, RBE said:

 

Again I would refer you to my post a few pages back. We do not take money until the project is 100% going ahead. Hence why no money had yet been taken for project 225. Had we asked for money it would have been produced.

 

With all respect to our community I would politely ask that people posting on social media regarding the potential losses of money when dealing with Cavalex to please make themselves conversant with how we operate before doing so so as not to give others who are not in the know the impression of a high risk of financial loss.

 

As a small company consising of a couple of modellers who do this in their spare time between their main jobs, I don't think it too much to ask that the return of all of the hard work an time put into projects upto the point of cutting tools be rewarded by some form of commitment by customers that the models being produced will be sold and thus allow us to carry on producing models for the community moving forward.

 

Regards

Cav

 

And I think what you've demonstrated here is a high degree of responsibility and should be commended for that .    Cavalex should not suffer from this .  If anything we should be more assured on future projects

[TomE]

Pleased to read that you still intend to pursue the N Gauge version. I hope the N Gauge community will support it through to production! 
 

Tom. 

[PaulRhB]

If people bother to read it’s all there about the finance and literally  you pay to actually start production! I don’t think the guys can make it any clearer. It can never be 100% as factories can then go down but it’s far removed from the normal crowd funding of the design stages too. 
Cav and Alex have made the decision based on their money and ours and are making sure they don’t saddle their brand with an image problem so they can produce the models we want. I have an order in for Warflats and although disappointed not to also have the 91 I’m impressed by the diligence and dignity of this stand back. 

[PaulRhB]

 

So who was boycotting the Bachmann Blue Pullman?

It’s tough but it’s business, if Hornby rolled over and took it they’d be in even more trouble. This is nothing new and why releases are so strongly guarded traditionally. 

They did the same to Hattons and Rails and they still have more financial muscle. The only reason Bachmann got the 90 I suspect is it was while Mr K was working for Locomotion etc. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by PaulRhB
Quote vanished into the ether!!

[Ollie K]

45 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

Sad news but totally understandable. My one was going to be just one 91 - well outside of my modelling era and location, but I would like a line up of ECML thoroughbreds.

 

I don't intend to buy a Hornby one - I prefer to support small hobbyist companies. I don't have anything against Hornby, just can't get excited by a 91 from them. So I guess I've saved myself £250

Echoes my thoughts exactly. Was disappointed but unsurprised to see the latest update from Cavalex, and still think they've done a fine job handling it. Considered ordering a Hornby 91 even though it's well out of by layout's period (and of course there's no equivalent rolling stock), but realised I was just as excited about the prospect of supporting the new start-up outfit as I was for the doubtless fine product that would have resulted. So, I'll remain a kettle-only chap. 

 

FWIW, my completely uninformed two penceworth re. the rolling stock is that, as per the Mk3s, Hornby will announce a newly tooled Mk4 DVT with lighting next year to bookend the loco, but let the elderly coaches tread water a while longer. 

 

Hope Cavalex goes from strength to strength in 2020 and beyond. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by OliverBytham
typo

[gridwatcher]

This is said but completely understandable and sensible decision. No point breaking a fledgling company over this and I suspect other plans may come to the fore instead. There are still gaps and the wagons are (or look like the will be) all brilliant. 

[truffy]

5 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Yet they seem to be happy festooning the kettleistas with more types of Pullman than Pullman probably ever had at one time in extreme detail, and the LNER tea urn lovers with not one but two types of non corridor stock with complex faux teak finishes.

Now, if the 91 boiled water it would be a different matter, 

You need to brew your tea for less time, it's gone bitter.

[sanspareil]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Unless for display in a cabinet, on its own, I can't see why anyone would buy a new Hornby 91 unless they have produced the carriages to go with it. Indeed, I would even suggest a boycott.

 

It reminds me of a Jouef rep coming into my shop with a very nice scale model of one of the TGVs, driving motor cars and motor cars. "Isn't it a wonderful model?, he said. "Yes, probably the best Jouef has ever done," I replied. "How many will you be ordering?" "None. My customers are modellers and will want the rest of the train".

 

And I was right too. The matching trailers never arrived, just like most of the Hornby Eurostar.

 

Indeed I hope on the Mk4's but as a continually frustrated Hornby customer (like wise with the MK3's/Eurostar coaches to name two) I dont really hold much hope of seeing new MK'4s anytime soon. Also if the new 91 doesnt sell Hornby for sure will use this as an additional indicator that the new MK4's are not worth doing.

 

Hornby all too often dont seem to see the wider picture/chicken and egg situation of only realising part of a train then seeming surprised when sales are low! I was told sales of the Eurostar were disappointing, wonder why! On MK3's I spoke to Simon at a show once and when I asked about an upgrade and doing things properly this time (eg the Lima TGS lash up) you could see he was a bit irritated. He said very high sales have proven there was nothing wrong with Hornbys approach on this and there are no plans to upgrade. Sure maybe sales were good (little other choice) but how much higher would they have been if say the TGS was tooled fresh to match let alone all now to current standards?

Edited January 20, 2020 by sanspareil

[letterspider]

17 hours ago, berwicksfinest said:

I thought they were only doing the unrefurbished version ??

 

Then you will be happy to read this post here:

 

[Pete the Elaner]

17 hours ago, chris37422 said:

Disappointing news.

 

It’s tricky with a 91 in that they only work with Mark 4’s (other than L/E obv) and have never been freight locos. For me there seems little point in me purchasing a Hornby 91 with no MK4s and DVT as Cavalex were to produce.

 

The first few 91s ran with test trains & were then put into service before the Mk4s were ready, working with converted HST sets with an HST DVT at the other end.

The vehicles to make the HST formation are all in Hornby's 2020 range.

[mdvle]

6 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

And what would your complaint say?

 

Hornby is competing with Cavalex!

 

Hardly a breach of the law.

 

 

 

Not familiar with the law, but in many places there are sections of the law that deal with a dominant player attempting to prevent competition by essentially putting a new entrant or weaker competitor out of business. 

 

The easiest examples would be in the computer/tech field, both the 1998 Microsoft anti-trust case, decades prior to that IBM, and more currently the rumblings from the EU regarding Google/Apple and the app stores.

 

The problem is a combination of many governments being no longer interested in taking on such cases, which is in part because it is so difficult to actually prove such cases. 

[chris37422]

23 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

The first few 91s ran with test trains & were then put into service before the Mk4s were ready, working with converted HST sets with an HST DVT at the other end.

The vehicles to make the HST formation are all in Hornby's 2020 range.

Oh yes of course, I know. The point I was making from my own perspective was about what they have worked with the bulk of their lives and has been 'standard' as such.

 

We'll get there in the end no doubt... one day.

[GordonC]

26 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

The first few 91s ran with test trains & were then put into service before the Mk4s were ready, working with converted HST sets with an HST DVT at the other end.

The vehicles to make the HST formation are all in Hornby's 2020 range.

 

were the DVT HST power cars not in Intercity Executive livery when used with 91s? The Hornby 2020 ones are Swallow