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The trams that time forgot


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1 hour ago, 2ManySpams said:

Don't forget the magnet idea Banks...

I haven’t and I have bought the steel strip.  I will explain later.  Just realised from the photo it’s not clear what I’m doing,

 

There is a little jig I made. It is aluminium extrusion in a sort of square horseshoe section. Sliding in the channel is a bit of a plug it’s the brass head of a plug connector, a little block of brass with a screw running through it,

 

I slide the block to the correct length for the sleeper and tighten the screw. Now fixed, I slide in the copper clad sleeper strip and snip to length with side cutters,  missed out from the shot.

 

the gauge is 24.5 mm and then the sleepers extend another 12mm  ish.  On that extended sleeper I will put a small strip 10.5mm of resin cast cobbles.  That is the 18 inches of cobble required by the board of trade.

 

Andy

 

 

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I don’t.   There are two locomotives preserved from the same Irish tramway, the Portstewart tramway which only had 3 engines in total, number 1 is in Hull and number 2 is on display at the Ulster Folk Museum. So they sort of had a spare.

 

Andy

 

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This is all rather apposite as I have started contemplating a Birmingham & Aston steam tram in 4 mm scale as a load for a Midland Railway tram engine wagon. I've gleaned from this site that a number of that company's Kitsons, built in the 1880s, were re-boilered around the turn of the century - spot on for my modelling period. I'm assuming they went back to Leeds for that. I've just got a copy of D. Harvey, Birmingham before the Electric Tram (Amberley, 2013) but it is sadly thin on such technical details.

 

I'm wondering if anyone can advise on drawings, published or otherwise. I have to say I've rather take a fancy to the big Kitsons Nos. 13-27 - there's something very satisfying about the five-window style, though of course the four-window engines have their own dinky charm. 

 

Is the Alphagraphix card kit a reliable guide to livery colours? (Another topic on which Harvey is silent - I seem to see an early two-tone livery and a later all-over red?)

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On 08/09/2021 at 06:46, wagonbasher said:

I don’t.   There are two locomotives preserved from the same Irish tramway, the Portstewart tramway which only had 3 engines in total, number 1 is in Hull and number 2 is on display at the Ulster Folk Museum. So they sort of had a spare.

 

Andy

 

 

The book, Irish Trams, by James Kilroy, states "The famous tramway enthusiast, Dr H A Whitcombe, was instrumental in having No. 1 acquired by the transport museum in Kingston upon Hull in 1939" (page 53)--so it has been there a long time. Kilroy also notes that, prior to this, No. 1 and No. 2 "were stored in the carriage wash shed at York Road, Belfast, for many years" (ibid).

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

  

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

This is all rather apposite as I have started contemplating a Birmingham & Aston steam tram in 4 mm scale as a load for a Midland Railway tram engine wagon. I've gleaned from this site that a number of that company's Kitsons, built in the 1880s, were re-boilered around the turn of the century - spot on for my modelling period. I'm assuming they went back to Leeds for that. I've just got a copy of D. Harvey, Birmingham before the Electric Tram (Amberley, 2013) but it is sadly thin on such technical details.

 

I'm wondering if anyone can advise on drawings, published or otherwise. I have to say I've rather take a fancy to the big Kitsons Nos. 13-27 - there's something very satisfying about the five-window style, though of course the four-window engines have their own dinky charm. 

 

Is the Alphagraphix card kit a reliable guide to livery colours? (Another topic on which Harvey is silent - I seem to see an early two-tone livery and a later all-over red?)

 

Hi

 

I've sent you an extract from Hefti's excellent book on Trams where he covers Kitson's and I think re-boilering might be mentioned.

 

This info also includes drawings of a Leeds standard gauge version.

 

The book can now be bought here for an online version:

https://play.google.com/store/books/details/HEFTI_Tramway_Lokomotiven?id=hNOcBgAAQBAJ

 

The lovely Wikipedia says on livery:

"The rolling stock comprised steam locomotive engines in a crimson livery and Starbuck Car and Wagon Company double-deck trailer cars in cream"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_and_Aston_Tramways_Company

However - the picture I have seen seem to show them two-tone = so maybe crimson and cream?

http://www.tramwaybadgesandbuttons.com/page148/page4/styled-44/page473.html

 

....ah, yes...like the Alphagraphix card kit picture I just now looked up!

 

 

I particularly like

mattm_engine-13_edred.jpg.888e36e75dfa8d437decaa0f073e15ad.jpg

http://www.tramwaybadgesandbuttons.com/page148/page4/styled-44/files/mattm_engine-13_edred.jpg

 

All the best

 

Andy

 

 

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18 minutes ago, harris0169 said:

I've sent you an extract from Hefti's excellent book on Trams where he covers Kitson's and I think re-boilering might be mentioned.

 

This info also includes drawings of a Leeds standard gauge version.

 

Many thanks - I've had a look in there and a skim through the text with my primitive German! The drawing is very useful, especially for the control gear. The trouble with that badges & buttons site is that although the photographs are wonderfully sharp, they mostly have uniformed staff standing in front of the engine!

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This is all rather apposite as I have started contemplating a Birmingham & Aston steam tram in 4 mm scale as a load for a Midland Railway tram engine wagon. I've gleaned from this site that a number of that company's Kitsons, built in the 1880s, were re-boilered around the turn of the century - spot on for my modelling period. I'm assuming they went back to Leeds for that. I've just got a copy of D. Harvey, Birmingham before the Electric Tram (Amberley, 2013) but it is sadly thin on such technical details.

 

I'm wondering if anyone can advise on drawings, published or otherwise. I have to say I've rather take a fancy to the big Kitsons Nos. 13-27 - there's something very satisfying about the five-window style, though of course the four-window engines have their own dinky charm. 

 

Is the Alphagraphix card kit a reliable guide to livery colours? (Another topic on which Harvey is silent - I seem to see an early two-tone livery and a later all-over red?)

You can buy a general arrangement plan for a Kitson 4 panel (I think they are 7mm drawings but maybe I requested that) from Terry Russell, he sells components and parts from tramway modelling, not steam.  There is a very detailed drawing in a big fat book, D Kinnear Clark, Tramways, their construction and working, of 1894.  
 

I am a little surprised that the Birmingham and Midland were having engines reboilered.  They sold out to British Electric Traction in 1899, the whole steam adventure was falling apart.  They did buy the ex Dudley, Stourbridge , Steam Tramways, maybe they had to invest in those.  In saying that BET did continue to run the steam trams for several years after the takeover so I suppose if some of your diminishing fleet needs to be reboilered then I guess they have no choice.

 

Livery, I know the spec, the words but I haven’t got to that bit yet.

 

There is an RM web member called Andy Bailey, also works at Crich. He was modelling a narrow gauge 4mm Kitson 4 window from what looks like an etch.  you will find on this thread in the first couple of pages, may be worth a PM.

 

Andy

 

 

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5 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

You can buy a general arrangement plan for a Kitson 4 panel (I think they are 7mm drawings but maybe I requested that) from Terry Russell, he sells components and parts from tramway modelling, not steam.  There is a very detailed drawing in a big fat book, D Kinnear Clark, Tramways, their construction and working, of 1894.  
 

I am a little surprised that the Birmingham and Midland were having engines reboilered.  They sold out to British Electric Traction in 1899, the whole steam adventure was falling apart.  They did buy the ex Dudley, Stourbridge , Steam Tramways, maybe they had to invest in those.  In saying that BET did continue to run the steam trams for several years after the takeover so I suppose if some of your diminishing fleet needs to be reboilered then I guess they have no choice.

 

Livery, I know the spec, the words but I haven’t got to that bit yet.

 

There is an RM web member called Andy Bailey, also works at Crich. He was modelling a narrow gauge 4mm Kitson 4 window from what looks like an etch.  you will find on this thread in the first couple of pages, may be worth a PM.

 

Andy

 

 

Sorry,just rer read your post and your talking Birmingham and Aston.  They operated to 1902~as steam so Ok reboilering is a necessary cost.  
 

Andy

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32 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Sorry,just rer read your post and your talking Birmingham and Aston.  

 

Yes, my googling had led me to Birmingham & Aston which is pointing in the direction of my patch, having grown up in Sutton Coldfield, but the David Harvey book has opened my eyes to the multiplicity of steam tramway operators in Birmingham (and I believe also the Black Country) in the 1880s/90s!

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I think that between David Harvey's book and that button website I've seen all the good photos I'm likely to see of the Birmingham & Aston's Kitsons (including those two posted by @melmerby). What I haven't tracked down is a postable photo of the tram engine wagon I have in mind, D312, for which I will have to refer you to R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1980) Plate 315. Looking again at that, I am now having a doubt; the well length is 12'2" and the length over body of the 4-window Kitson drawn in the extract from the book that @harris0169 sent me is 10'11"; I therefore suspect that for the big 5-window Kitsons I'd need D312's longer sibling D311 that has a 16'2" well...

 

In lieu of photos of any of those, here's a Midland Railway Kitson (Portstewart Tramway No. 2) on a Midland Railway tram engine-carrying wagon - or rather, 5'3" gauge 6-wheel trolley for carrying 3'0" gauge stock:

 

BELFAST & NORTHERN COUNTIES RAILWAY - No.2 - Port Stewart Tramway 0-4-0T 3-foot Gauge Tram Engine - built 1883 by Kitson  & Co., Works No.84, as No.2 - 1897 to BNCR, number unchanged - 1926 withdrawn when Tramway closed - seen here en route to/from Works on transporter wagon.

 

[Embedded link.] 

 

The engine looks to have been freshly restored to Belfast & Norther Counties livery, judging by the livery of the cattle wagon, sometime after 1936; presumably its on its way to a museum; it can be seen in the same condition at the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum, Cultra:

 

image.png.022c5989baf9f00e7ec2b67342ee11e3.png

 

[By NearEMPTiness - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, via Wikimedia commons.] (It has, though, gained a screen around the condensor.) As has been mentioned upthread, No. 1 is at the Streetlife Museum, Hull, in MR (NCC) livery.

 

 

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5 hours ago, harris0169 said:

 

Hi

 

The lovely Wikipedia says on livery:

"The rolling stock comprised steam locomotive engines in a crimson livery and Starbuck Car and Wagon Company double-deck trailer cars in cream"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_and_Aston_Tramways_Company

However - the picture I have seen seem to show them two-tone = so maybe crimson and cream?

http://www.tramwaybadgesandbuttons.com/page148/page4/styled-44/page473.html

 

Andy

 

 

In Keith Turner's "Directory of British Tramways Vol. 2"  (History Press 2009) the description is: Locos: Crimson, Cars: Crimson & Cream.

The expanding stock consisted of Locos 1-6 by Kitson, 7 & 8 by Wilkinson and 9-27 were Kitsons.

Also The first ten cars (1-10) , were Metropolitan open top D/D, Nos 11-18 were Starbuck roofed D/D, followed by 19-22 Metropolitan roofed D/D.

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2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The expanding stock consisted of Locos 1-6 by Kitson, 7 & 8 by Wilkinson and 9-27 were Kitsons.

 

Nos. 1-6, 9-12 were the shorter 4-window variety built 1882-3, 13-27 the 5-window sort built 1885-6. The two by Wilkinson were vertical-boiler engines and were weedy, not being used after 1887, according to Harvey, who has a rather jolly photo of No. 7 with 4-wheel Metropolitan car No. 1. There clearly was an early livery in which the upper works - window surrounds etc. - and the skirts were cream, matching the cars. But the all-over red livery is appropriate to my c. 1902 period. 

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1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Nos. 1-6, 9-12 were the shorter 4-window variety built 1882-3, 13-27 the 5-window sort built 1885-6. The two by Wilkinson were vertical-boiler engines and were weedy, not being used after 1887, according to Harvey, who has a rather jolly photo of No. 7 with 4-wheel Metropolitan car No. 1. There clearly was an early livery in which the upper works - window surrounds etc. - and the skirts were cream, matching the cars. But the all-over red livery is appropriate to my c. 1902 period. 

I've got the Harvey book as well, also his "From the City to the Maypole" which has a picture of a steam tram & trailer on the Moseley Road route. The Steam Tram Depot still exists in King's Heath - It's now (extended a bit) used by "International Stock" but the two main buildings consisting of the car shed and the engine shed, can still be recognised.

 

"Tramways of the West Midlands" (LRTA) has a nice photo of Kitson 5 bay No. 19 outside Witton depot with a trailer (not identified)

 

 

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A book well worth getting hold of is "History of the Steam Tram" by Dr HA Whitcombe published by Adam Gordon 2000. It is a paper  read before the Institution of Locomotive Engineers on the 6th January 1937. It is complete with the discussion that followed and the author 's reply. The audience included people who remembered seeing and travelling on the tramways in question. Dr Whitcombe lists all the tramways in the British Isles and British & Overseas manufacturers.

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On 19/04/2022 at 02:08, laurenceb said:

A book well worth getting hold of is "History of the Steam Tram" by Dr HA Whitcombe published by Adam Gordon 2000. It is a paper  read before the Institution of Locomotive Engineers on the 6th January 1937. It is complete with the discussion that followed and the author 's reply. The audience included people who remembered seeing and travelling on the tramways in question. Dr Whitcombe lists all the tramways in the British Isles and British & Overseas manufacturers.

One source of  first hand experience is an article covered=over two editions of ‘Modern Tramway’ an Ian Allen publication.  Volume 28, numbers 328 and 329 dated April and May 1965. I was between 4 and 5 months old….

 

Memories of Birmingham Steam trams.   C Gilbert.  
 

Mr Gilbert was clearly a regular user if the Birmingham central tramways, a keen observer and in my opinion an enthusiast.

 

 

He details the system, the colour light and letter coding for destinations.  Details about what the locomotives carried in terms of tools, locomotive and trailer braking, operations at termini, servicing, depots, couplings and operation.  He also details of incidents, accidents and run aways he  experienced in his 2500 miles per year he was travelling on the trams. He talks of  the way the different locomotives performed and how they were operated.

 

 

Priceless incite.

 

Andy

 

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  • 3 months later...

Thought this might be an appropriate place to post a pic of the trackwork that I've (not!) been working on....seeing as all the other ones have gone....

As mentioned earlier in the thread, fabricated girder rail from 3 sections with knauf easy plaster road surface....4mm/EM

295020522_1095747434376864_5027537482295095595_n.jpg

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