All-new Heljan 47 in 00 gauge

[MGR Hooper!]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

You might well be right. However, Hornby has a Railroad standard tooling (actually two) and, going by the undoubted success of churning out 66s, followed by 59s and 92s, all to Railroad specs, I fancy that Hornby will go for the quick profit. Still, you never know what Mr. Kohler might be planning. If he is planning a new 47, he’ll have to do a much better job on the lighting and providing for DCC than hitherto or my cash will go elsewhere.

 

I seem to recall Simon Kohler also saying when Hornby announced their Mk.1 coaches that certain models are "bread and butter" models or something along those lines. Basically saying that some models will sell in extremely large quantities simply because if the popularity of the prototype.

[MGR Hooper!]

9 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

2020 sadly is not the 47’s 60th. IIRC it emerged 1962/63 ?

 

Good to know....read it on Facebook on one of the usual box shifter's pages when they shared the news about the Heljan Class 47

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

September 1962, D1500 first seen burbling in the KX area. After some time there, then went to WR.

 

There's enough lead time to plan a 'Diamond anniversary edition' - please not...

[WisTramwayMan]

21 hours ago, stewartingram said:

 

 

 

Re the earlier post regarding foods for different supermarkets packed in a common factory to almost identical specs - it's not only food it happens with. I used to work in a factory supplying branded items to multiple supermarkets where the base product was all but identical and the only differentiator was how pretty the packaging was. Some customers will pay more for attractive packaging. Such is marketing.

 

Just pause to think on what would happen should this principle be applied in model railways (and all this is purely hypothetical). Lets say that instead of Hornby, Bachmann and Heljan each developing and making their own version of the class 47, someone (let's call them Vader) set up a joint venture between the manufacturers to produce a new class 47. A common chassis with common motor is produced. Common bogies and associated drivetrains are produced. Bodyshells are produced, with the tooling allowing for different variants. The electronics package is standard.

 

This then results in identical basic locomotives, which then pass from the basic manufacturing process to a finishing plant, where the liveries and extras package specified by each manufacturer is applied, and subsequently packed into the final point of sale packaging specified by that manufacturer. Thus you have 000s of class 47s being produced, with the base models absolutely the same, where the only real difference (apart from liveries) is the amount of bells and whistles specified by the individual brand.

 

Desirable ? Debatable.

 

Cheaper ? Almost certainly.

 

Reliable ? Provided a competent job is made of the original design and manufacturing, plus decent QA and pre-production testing, then no reason why not.

 

Food for thought.

 

Hang on, that's where we started.

[classy52]

Well this is a bit of a shock, knew this was coming but not from Heljan...I shall wait in anticipation.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

23 minutes ago, classy52 said:

Well this is a bit of a shock, knew this was coming but not from Heljan...I shall wait in anticipation.

 

I thought the same. On a positive note for my wallet by the sounds of it the current/modern locos still in traffic now eg FL, Colas, DRS, GBRf, ROG & West Coast Railways won't appear until possibly around 2024/2025 as their are several liveries that Heljan will be producing first, starting from when they were built in the 1960s. For me I don't need the FL versions, I already have a Colas version by Bachmann, I already have nine DRS models and unless I buy any units I won't need ROG 47812 or 47815. So I am mainly interested in the GBRf Blue 739 & 749 and a couple of West Coast Railways models. So thankfully because of what I have already bought which I intend to keep this announcement won't be that expensive. Thank goodness haha. 

 

Do you plan on buying any? 

[classy52]

14 minutes ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

I thought the same. On a positive note for my wallet by the sounds of it the current/modern locos still in traffic now eg FL, Colas, DRS, GBRf, ROG & West Coast Railways won't appear until possibly around 2024/2025 as their are several liveries that Heljan will be producing first, starting from when they were built in the 1960s. For me I don't need the FL versions, I already have a Colas version by Bachmann, I already have nine DRS models and unless I buy any units I won't need ROG 47812 or 47815. So I am mainly interested in the GBRf Blue 739 & 749 and a couple of West Coast Railways models. So thankfully because of what I have already bought which I intend to keep this announcement won't be that expensive. Thank goodness haha. 

 

Do you plan on buying any? 

 

Yes my only reservation is that Heljan will only cater for the legacy periods first and not current day so if this will be the case then you're right we'll probably won't buy any until about 2050  2025 so I'll just happily stick with my ViTrains & Bachmann special ed's.

Hopefully Heljan release current day liveried 47's in their first batch but I doubt it, never owned a Heljan so that may continue for a good few years.

Edited July 9, 2019 by classy52

[Fenman]

52 minutes ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Re the earlier post regarding foods for different supermarkets packed in a common factory to almost identical specs - it's not only food it happens with. I used to work in a factory supplying branded items to multiple supermarkets where the base product was all but identical and the only differentiator was how pretty the packaging was. Some customers will pay more for attractive packaging. Such is marketing.

...

 

When I was a student (a looong time ago now) I got a summer job in one of Europe's largest frozen food processing factories. I worked in vegetables - fresh produce shipped in from all over East Anglia, frozen and otherwise processed and packaged on site. The factory produced own brand produce for all the major supermarkets; but the main difference was in the number of people looking at the veg coming in on conveyor belts to pick out ones which looked a bit manky (technical term), or to pull out stalks that had been left on, etc. M&S had the highest number of people on the line, whereas the cheapest supermarket (long before the days of Lidl and Aldi) had just one person.

 

The most horrible experience I had was when we were packing frozen peas. The bagging machine left too much air in each bag when it was sealed (so that, say, 24 bags wouldn't fit in the box), so someone was armed with a skewer and told to make four holes in each bag as they passed - so the air could be pushed out and they would then fit into the boxes. On one of the stops where the machine had jammed and a technician was needed to clear it, I looked across to see the woman on skewer duty cleaning her finger nails... 

 

Paul

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

1 minute ago, classy52 said:

 

Yes my only reservation is that Heljan will only cater for the legacy periods first and not current day so if this will be the case then you're right we'll probably won't buy any until about 2050  2025 so I'll just happily stick with my ViTrains & Bachmann special ed's.

Hopefully Heljan release current day liveried 47's in their first batch but I doubt it.

 

I'm the same. My ViTrains and Bachmann models are good enough for me and I didn't pay much at all for most of them. Not compared to current prices for new models. Although for me the West Coast 47s would depend upon if Bachmann release a West Coast 57/3. They have already announced one in N Gauge, this being 57313 so it does seem likely that they will. If they do I will probably have two and renumber the second, so I may not need any 47s in Maroon. 

 

I have previously owned a Heljan 47, before selling it and it was really fast and powerful, although their just wasn't the detailing and DCC features their. So I am hoping that Heljan get this new model right and provide significant improvements to what is already available by themselves and competitors. 

 

I doubt they will release any modern ones in the first run either. We will most likely have a few years to wait yet. But if the model is to a high standard then hopefully the waiting should pay off. 

[newbryford]

Current liveries are generally a good seller, so I would expect at least one or two to appear reasonably quickly when they are released.

However, bear in mind that we are looking at 18-24 months and who knows what the state of play will be with 47s on the mainline then.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

31 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Current liveries are generally a good seller, so I would expect at least one or two to appear reasonably quickly when they are released.

However, bear in mind that we are looking at 18-24 months and who knows what the state of play will be with 47s on the mainline then.

 

Completely agree Mick. I also forgot to add LSL at Crewe to the above list of operators. I also didn't mention any preserved ones or others that act as stock heaters, shunters etc at depots. It would be nice to see one or two modern ones appear sooner rather than later. I saw a comment by someone posted a while ago saying that Bachmann should have produced a West Coast 47/8 instead of 245. So this could be a good one for Heljan. If done properly and offered at a reasonable price that would be a good starting point for modern image 47s I reckon. 

[The Black Hat]

This has the potential to be an absolute body blow against Bachmann. Given the recent announcements of both the Peak and 66 too, the range from Barwell has now got some serious competition. I think this has the potential to really cause Bachmann problems, given no doubt they will be continuing with their own models as they are released.

 

Yet the main issue for duplication here is that Bachmann chose well. They went for engines that have been numerous and lasted some time on the network. Now, these choices are being front and centre as models are upgraded and more DCC control is used for sound and lights.

 

People should not bemoan Heljan for doing this. The company is back and looking to make a step change in accuracy and detail as it moves forwards, thanks due to a lot of Ben's input. Other companies have shown that they have the ability to enter the market and overtake both the leading companies for new models, with Dapol and the 68 and with Realtrack with the 156. Heljan could be about to join that list, but I would push for modern liveries to be done sooner rather than later.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

34 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

This has the potential to be an absolute body blow against Bachmann. Given the recent announcements of both the Peak and 66 too, the range from Barwell has now got some serious competition. I think this has the potential to really cause Bachmann problems, given no doubt they will be continuing with their own models as they are released.

 

Yet the main issue for duplication here is that Bachmann chose well. They went for engines that have been numerous and lasted some time on the network. Now, these choices are being front and centre as models are upgraded and more DCC control is used for sound and lights.

 

People should not bemoan Heljan for doing this. The company is back and looking to make a step change in accuracy and detail as it moves forwards, thanks due to a lot of Ben's input. Other companies have shown that they have the ability to enter the market and overtake both the leading companies for new models, with Dapol and the 68 and with Realtrack with the 156. Heljan could be about to join that list, but I would push for modern liveries to be done sooner rather than later.

 

I agree. I just hope that Heljan capture all of the detail, add additional DCC features and sound options. This would prove a considerable improvement from the Bachmann model, which has minimal detail, standard if you like DCC features (directional and cab lighting) and most of their models until recently haven't been offered with factory fitted sounds. 

 

I also think that at least some modern image examples should come sooner rather than later. I mean their time on the network now is probably really limited. By 2021 alone when the first Heljan examples are proposed for release, their will most likely have been withdrawals from front line service from what remains now. For those modellers/collectors who like to be as current as possible this may be problematic, as would they buy something that wasn't "active" on the mainline? Maybe not. So it might be better for Heljan to capture them whilst still in traffic, on prototypical workings. 

[ColinK]

My main concern with new models is how well they work ie do they run reliably and run well. Plus how good the couplings are ie NEM pockets the right height and don’t droop over time. A model that is 100% accurate but does not run well or couple well is no good to me.  Lets hope they get this one right.

[Legend]

Jury’s out . I’ll wait with interest to see the loco. I’ve not forgotten the Clayton 17 fiasco and the year it took to get replacement chassis , although that was some time ago. In fairness the replacement 17 and 26, 27s and 47 I have all run well. So it’s a wait see. As to Bachmann , well they’ve been charging top prices for sometime now, it’s good they’ve got some competition on 66 , 45, 47 and 55. 37 next? They need to get substantially faster in developing models as these bread and butter items are being cut out from under them. 

[JSpencer]

20 minutes ago, Legend said:

As to Bachmann , well they’ve been charging top prices for sometime now, it’s good they’ve got some competition on 66 , 45, 47 and 55. 37 next? They need to get substantially faster in developing models as these bread and butter items are being cut out from under them. 

 

This is going to be a litmus test. Will the leap in improvement  of these new models over the previous versions (all appearing in the 21st century) be enough for people to buy them like they did with the previous versions to replace the old 80s toolings? And four at once too (maybe 5 with the 25, or 86). Time will tell (though the baccy 55 has been a major visual case for years like the Heljan's 52).

 

i have over 20 Heljan locos. All are great solid performers.

[Ouroborus]

I was a 'victim' of the 17 issues and am aware of the B-G problems.  That said, Heljan can also produce some real stunners.  The recent batch of 07 shunters can crawl at an almost imperceptible pace.  We'll see.  I think I'm odd that I prefer the Heljan tubby duffs - that extra width gives them a real presence.

[rob D2]

6 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Completely agree Mick. I also forgot to add LSL at Crewe to the above list of operators. I also didn't mention any preserved ones or others that act as stock heaters, shunters etc at depots. It would be nice to see one or two modern ones appear sooner rather than later. I saw a comment by someone posted a while ago saying that Bachmann should have produced a West Coast 47/8 instead of 245. So this could be a good one for Heljan. If done properly and offered at a reasonable price that would be a good starting point for modern image 47s I reckon. 

Modern image ? Yeah, I’m sure they’ll do a BR blue one, don’t panic !

[rob D2]

It’s a never ending debate, but are “ modern “ ones good sellers ?

the anglia 47 doesn’t appear to be for Bachmann.

 

Everything seems to change so quick , and what are the chances of seeing a real one these days unless you actually chase after them ?

[MGR Hooper!]

18 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

2020 sadly is not the 47’s 60th. IIRC it emerged 1962/63 ?

Read it on the Hatton's page....managed to find it. 

2022 is the 60th anniversary of the Class 47 which came out in 1962, Heljan's Class 47 will hit shop shelves in 2021, in time for the 60th anniversary.

 

[Ian Hargrave]

To give this an historical perspective,I saw my first - D1518- on a visit to Doncaster Works on 12/5/1963.Also in the works, in various stages of construction, . were a.c. electrics E3084/5 and E3091/2/3/4,newly delivered EE Type 3's D6825/32/41 (destined for the WR in South Wales). Steam was not quite yet finished ,with Gresley A3 and A4 and Peppercorn A2 undergoing overhaul.

  All this on a Warwickshire Railway Society special hauled by WC airsmoothed pacific 34094.A memorable day of infinite variety.

[No Decorum]

11 hours ago, Legend said:

Jury’s out . I’ll wait with interest to see the loco. I’ve not forgotten the Clayton 17 fiasco and the year it took to get replacement chassis , although that was some time ago. In fairness the replacement 17 and 26, 27s and 47 I have all run well. So it’s a wait see. As to Bachmann , well they’ve been charging top prices for sometime now, it’s good they’ve got some competition on 66 , 45, 47 and 55. 37 next? They need to get substantially faster in developing models as these bread and butter items are being cut out from under them. 

Fair points. I think it’s worth saying that Heljan did the right thing in relation to the 17 and the 009 L&B (in the end). Quite apart from the frustration of customers and damage to the company’s reputation, that sort of boob must cost the company a lot of money.

 

I still have reservations about the wisdom of producing a new tooling of something already on the market, especially if the item already on the market is adequate rather than awful. The problem, endlessly pointed out, is that there isn’t very much left by way of diesels that has not already been done. What’s left are oddballs, with questionable marketability, electrics (possibly earlier overhead electrics being oddballs too), DMUs (with squealing about likely cost) and shunters. With the 07 in its sights, Heljan shot straight. We have it from Ben that the Gresley O2s were not the success Heljan no doubt hoped for. That’s a shame, because it may have put Heljan off steam and steam remains the land of opportunity. There are still many classes which are far from obscure remaining to be modelled.

[Legend]

My goodness . Just realized the 47 came out the same year as me  (and the Cuban Missile crisis!). I really need to get one , maybe it will be my retirement present (although it looks like that might be the Rails/ Bachmann 812 !)

 

Like Ourobus , I don't really mind the tubby duffs , got a blue un-numbered one some time ago at a reasonable price . Good strong puller , she does have presence .

Edited July 10, 2019 by Legend

[MGR Hooper!]

57 minutes ago, Legend said:

My goodness . Just realized the 47 came out the same year as me  (and the Cuban Missile crisis!). I really need to get one , maybe it will be my retirement present (although it looks like that might be the Rails/ Bachmann 812 !)

 

Like Ourobus , I don't really mind the tubby duffs , got a blue un-numbered one some time ago at a reasonable price . Good strong puller , she does have presence .

FWIW the only think that put me off the "tubby duffs" was the windshields being too square and the handrail on the front being totally incorrect thus spoiling the whole look for me. The "tubby" isn't so noticeable until pointed out.

[newbryford]

5 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

. The "tubby" isn't so noticeable until pointed out.

 

Or it catches the platforms...…………… bridge piers

Edited July 10, 2019 by newbryford