GWR Coal Drops & loading/unloading of coal in towns and goods yards

[MarshLane]

13 hours ago, Mikkel said:

This sounds like an interesting layout! Typically from what I have seen, GWR coal merchant's facilities in the cities were just like the small ones, only larger and distributed around different sidings in the company's system within that city . There are some nice shots of larger coal yards in the GWR Goods Services  series, I can PM you a couple later today.

 

This could be getting a bit dangerous - the nucleus of a plan is forming ... well hardly a nucleus given the line drawing I've got in front of me lol!  If you are able to to PM anything as and when you get chance Mikkel, that would be appreciated.

 

Now off to search for images of GWR goods warehouses.

 

Rich

[Nearholmer]

Coal drops certainly started as a northern thing, but possibly the biggest examples in the UK were in London. 

 

St Pancras had several big ranks of drops; there were Midland Railway owned ones in Lambeth; Great Eastern (I think) ones built as a long dead-ended viaduct near Spitalfields; a Midland set accessed via the District Line near Gloucester Road, and others.

 

But, despite a fair bit of study of the bigger coal yards and drops around London, i’ve not come across any owned by the GWR. The big conduits for domestic coal were the Midland and the Great Northern, who had yards in all sorts of places, including the Midland in Maidstone (Kent). It may be that a high proportion of Welsh coal carried by the GWR was anthracite for industrial use, but I’m only guessing. If it was, breweries might be good places to look for as destinations, and have a look at Brentford Dock, because many London industries were on the river and took their coal by barge ....... did the GWR have drops at Brentford for loading barges?

 

PS: looking at old maps, I think they almost certainly did, certainly pre-1920s, and that the drops were arranged for the tipping of end-door wagons, which was a common way of doing things rail-barge in London.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Miss Prism]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

did the GWR have drops at Brentford for loading barges?

 

It looks like it:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/notes/brentdockmaplarge.gif

 

[Nearholmer]

We’ve found one then!

 

What we need now is a good photo.......

 

Coal is mentioned as one of the traffics in the Wikipedia history of Brentford Dock, but the one that caught my attention was coke. An oft-forgotten fuel, which again must have been distributed by barge.

 

Brentford Dock not only served the Thames, but the river/canal going north, and thereby the paper-making industry around Watford, so i’d Bet welsh coal went that way too, because the paper mills were all next to water and ate coal for drying purposes.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Gordon A]

21 hours ago, Western Star said:

Bridgnorth has the remains of coal drops.

 

Out of interest whereabouts?

 

Gordon A

[Mikkel]

16 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

We’ve found one then!

 

What we need now is a good photo.......

 

Crop of a photo, showing Brentford in the late 1920s. Later the docks were rebuilt with electric cranes. 

 

[Nearholmer]

That is probably gas-works coke, out-bound.

 

Brilliant photo BTW.

[Nearholmer]

Not GWR, but another interesting picture https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nostalgia-Postcard-Poplar-Docks-in-East-London-June1898-WK7-2/273622038553 Coal wagons, with "Chatterley" on the side, with what look like coke raves fitted to them, being side-tipped into a barge at Poplar. The caption says "coal for export", but whether it be coal or coke, my bet is that it is for London consumption, not abroad.

 

The same photo again, but far better captioned, plus another really good one of coal being end-tipped into a barge (keep scrolling down) https://www.railwaymen-nlr.org.uk/general-notes/

Edited September 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[MarshLane]

Oh dear .. @Nearholmer and @Mikkel - this started out to investigate the potential for a small side scene on a goods yard.  What have you done now!! The side scene could end up being part of the main scene ... 

 

Fascinating insight - loading of coal/coke into barges is one I hadn't thought about, despite giving some thought to wagons with end-doors when I was looking at possible coal drops.

 

Rich

[Nearholmer]

I just remembered, the GWR did have a depot at Poplar Dock and, checking the 1:1056 maps, it was goods and coal. 

 

What I can't tell from the map is how the coal was unloaded, though. Or, maybe it was loaded to rail there, not unloaded from rail.

 

The trouble with trying to understand coal flows in London is that, even after the railways arrived, a lot of coal still came down the east coast by boat, and up the Thames, then was distributed locally by barge or rail, so two full coal wagons could pass one another, one going from Wales or the Midlands to the docks/river to be tipped into a barge, the other taking coals from Newcastle to a merchant in a yard in North London.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[MarshLane]

Brentford did have quite a large inland docks are, being located on the Thames and at the start (or end, depending on your point of view) of the Grand Union Canal.

 

From Britain from Above - EPW060952 - this was the dock in 1939.  A lot of what looks like box vans, but plenty of empty coal wagons too.

 

From Britain from Above - EPW060459 - an alternative view, but unfortunately this one is blurred so its not possible to zoom in on the river side barges to look at the loading area.

 

From Google Earth. What a difference 80 years makes ... not sure if its better or not!

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

22 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I just remembered, the GWR did have a depot at Poplar Dock and, checking the 1:1056 maps, it was goods and coal. 

 

What I can't tell from the map is how the coal was unloaded, though. Or, maybe it was loaded to rail there, not unloaded from rail.

 

The trouble with trying to understand coal flows in London is that, even after the railways arrived, a lot of coal still came down the east coast by boat, and up the Thames, then was distributed locally by barge or rail, so two full coal wagons could pass one another, one going from Wales to the docks/river to be tipped into a barge, the other taking coals from Newcastle to a merchant in a yard in North London.

 

Quite a significant building as well as Poplar - this from a previous upload to rmWeb, but the pictures originally from the Science & Society Picture Library, through Getty Images

 

Again the historical info from that is remarkable.  Each of the barges (Im sure there is a more accurate name from them) appears to have the same number, so I presume that must be related to the 'Blackwall' wording.  Blackwall was another area of the East London Docks, so could it have been a location id?  Interesting each barge/vessel appears to be named rather than numbered, which I would have expected.

 

Looking to the building, the sharpness and detail on the crane is exemplary, although I wonder why the centre single load leading into the building had a loading gauge while the others didn't?  I would suggest that (purely going off this image) that Poplar was more of a general goods trading exchange point, rather than for coal.  Having said that, lots of info to be gleaned from this.

 

Rich

 

PS I've amended the thread title as the conversation has moved on a bit from the original query!  Fascinating stuff...

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I thought that the GWR depot at Poplar was "goods", not "coal", but the map says "goods and coal", and there were sidings outside of the big warehouse/shed buildings, plus a very curious building at the head of the dock, with access from wagon turntables, which just might have been a covered coal drop. 

 

More info needed!

[Fat Controller]

8 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Quite a significant building as well as Poplar - this from a previous upload to rmWeb, but the pictures originally from the Science & Society Picture Library, through Getty Images

 

Again the historical info from that is remarkable.  Each of the barges (Im sure there is a more accurate name from them) appears to have the same number, so I presume that must be related to the 'Blackwall' wording.  Blackwall was another area of the East London Docks, so could it have been a location id?  Interesting each barge/vessel appears to be named rather than numbered, which I would have expected.

 

Looking to the building, the sharpness and detail on the crane is exemplary, although I wonder why the centre single load leading into the building had a loading gauge while the others didn't?  I would suggest that (purely going off this image) that Poplar was more of a general goods trading exchange point, rather than for coal.  Having said that, lots of info to be gleaned from this.

 

Rich

 

PS I've amended the thread title as the conversation has moved on a bit from the original query!  Fascinating stuff...

I believe the boats were called 'Lighters'; there were 'Thames Barges', but they were rather larger, sail-powered, and capable of sailing around the coast, as well as in the Thames. Lighters were generally 'dumb' and had to be towed.

[MarshLane]

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, I thought that the GWR depot at Poplar was "goods", not "coal", but the map says "goods and coal", and there were sidings outside of the big warehouse/shed buildings, plus a very curious building at the head of the dock, with access from wagon turntables, which just might have been a covered coal drop. 

 

More info needed!

 

Ah that could definitely make sense. I'll keep trawling the images on BFA and see what I can find out, but as you say, more information is needed!

 

 

7 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I believe the boats were called 'Lighters'; there were 'Thames Barges', but they were rather larger, sail-powered, and capable of sailing around the coast, as well as in the Thames. Lighters were generally 'dumb' and had to be towed.

 

Thats the one I was thinking of and it just wouldn't come to me, yes Lighters.  I always imagined they were horse-drawn along tow-paths, but I suppose they could have been secured to a steam barge or the like, depending on the distance going.

 

EDIT: From Wikipedia...

"Lighters were traditionally unpowered and were moved and steered using long oars called "sweeps" and the motive power of water currents. They were operated by highly skilled workers called lightermen and were a characteristic sight in London's docks until about the 1960s, when technological changes made this form of lightering largely redundant."

 

Rich

Edited September 20, 2019 by MarshLane
Added info

[Nearholmer]

I'd forgotten the proper name too, so another thank you.

 

It is still quite common to see strings of lighters (see, I got it right that time) on the Thames, towed by small tugs. They are used to shift rubbish from a couple of places, one being next to Grosvenor Bridge, and they've been used to shift muck from multiple tunnelling jobs, most recently Crossrail IIRC.

 

There were also small sail barges, not the big classic sailing barges that went down-river and round the coast or across to Holland. They are visible in some of the photos, and I've seen photos of them way up river carrying coal ......... were they also called "Thames Sailing Barges" or were they a distinct species?

 

PS: amongst a barrage of boat terminology, none of which I understand, Wikipedia says that there were "luff barges", small ones with only one mast, for going up-river, and "cut barges", very low ones for going onto canals.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

On 20/09/2019 at 07:48, Bishop of Welchester said:

 

That's Gloucester, Miss P., but it's the Midland yard.

 

Best practice, then.

 

The discussion seems to have drifted from dropping (through the bottom doors) to tipping (either through the end door or over the side by rotating the wagon). With apologies to Great Western enthusiasts, here's the upper deck of the Midland's Cambridge Street coal wharf - the wagon is rotated until coal descends a chute into a barge below:

 

 

NRM DY 2778, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[figworthy]

59 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I'd forgotten the proper name too, so another thank you.

 

It is still quite common to see strings of lighters (see, I got it right that time) on the Thames, towed by small tugs. They are used to shift rubbish from a couple of places, one being next to Grosvenor Bridge, and they've been used to shift muck from multiple tunnelling jobs, most recently Crossrail IIRC.

 

There were also small sail barges, not the big classic sailing barges that went down-river and round the coast or across to Holland. They are visible in some of the photos, and I've seen photos of them way up river carrying coal ......... were they also called "Thames Sailing Barges" or were they a distinct species?

 

PS: amongst a barrage of boat terminology, none of which I understand, Wikipedia says that there were "luff barges", small ones with only one mast, for going up-river, and "cut barges", very low ones for going onto canals.

 

Barges have accommodation for their crews, whereas lighters don't.

 

Adrian

[Rising Standards]

On 19/09/2019 at 22:35, Western Star said:

Bridgnorth has the remains of coal drops.

 

3 hours ago, Gordon A said:

 

Out of interest whereabouts?

 

Right by the roadside section of the SVR's car park. Here's a rough snip from a well known online map service.

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, MarshLane said:

Britain from Above - EPW060952 - this was the dock in 1939.  A lot of what looks like box vans, but plenty of empty coal wagons too.

 

Even with the angle of the sun (in the south-east), there does seem to be an unusually large number of white van roofs on display. (And somewhat ironic, given that 1939 was the year the GWR threw in the towel and started painting roofs grey.)

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Miss Prism

[Siberian Snooper]

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Even with the angle of the sun (in the south-east), there does seem to be an unusually large number of white van roofs on display. (And somewhat ironic, given that 1939 was the year the GWR threw in the towel and started painting roofs grey.)

 

 

 

Is 1939, more likely to be a wartime expedient? rather than a cosmetic exercise.

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Hmmmm ........ one of the first things LT and many others did to prepare for war was to paint the tops of busses dark grey, to make them less obvious as targets. Hard to believe that the railways were deliberately doing the opposite.

[Jonboy]

Cheeky related request.

 

The wife’s family used to be coal merchants working from Upton and Blewbury. They had some sort of conveyor and shoot mechanism to allow them to load their lorry from above.

 

the only image I can find is this one of it peeking over the goods shed.  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nostalgia-Postcard-1962-Upton-Blewbury-Railway-Station-Oxfordshire-Repro-NS15-/273445732619 (widely publicised photo). This is from 1962 and it was gone by 1966

 

I cannot find any any other images and the family don’t seem to remember how it was operated, does anyone have any knowledge or further info?

[Fat Controller]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Best practice, then.

 

The discussion seems to have drifted from dropping (through the bottom doors) to tipping (either through the end door or over the side by rotating the wagon). With apologies to Great Western enthusiasts, here's the upper deck of the Midland's Cambridge Street coal wharf - the wagon is rotated until coal descends a chute into a barge below:

 

 

NRM DY 2778, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

 

 

 

I've seen a few tipplers in action, but I've never seen one like that before. Presumably there was some means of distributing the coal to a particular merchant, or perhaps it was just for a single large user?

[MarshLane]

50 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I've seen a few tipplers in action, but I've never seen one like that before. Presumably there was some means of distributing the coal to a particular merchant, or perhaps it was just for a single large user?

 

I think that is tipping into a single barge, so no means of direction was really needed.