GWR Coal Drops & loading/unloading of coal in towns and goods yards

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

that is what I call proper work.

 

These ramps and what have you are, I think, rather the exception. A great deal of shovelling went on. Consider these LNWR Loco Coal wagons at Coventry Shed:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways image lnwrcov4085.] No side, end, or bottom doors; certainly no wagon tipping facility; just men with shovels.

[Nearholmer]

It’s quite hard to decode that Oxted picture. I thought ‘ramp’, and wondered about a windlass or something to control barrow-descent, but looking again I wonder whether it might be a chute, with a roof over it, acting as a bunker. I’ve seen that sort of thing in old photos from the US coal fields.

[Andy Keane]

53 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It’s quite hard to decode that Oxted picture. I thought ‘ramp’, and wondered about a windlass or something to control barrow-descent, but looking again I wonder whether it might be a chute, with a roof over it, acting as a bunker. I’ve seen that sort of thing in old photos from the US coal fields.

Yes - there does seem to be an entrance into it so maybe there is a coal drop into it and something inside. But think of the dust - no wonder people got ill!

[Nearholmer]

Andy,

 

the term ‘coal drop’ covers a multitude of options, but this is the sort I wondered if it might be:

 

Dead easy to install on an embankment, and if it is wide, it doesn’t need to be very tall to have decent capacity.

 

 

Another interesting one was Berkhampsted, where the gasworks was served by an 18” gauge horse-drawn railway from the station goods yard. If you Google it, there are pixies online of the crude, but effective ‘drop’ there.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Andy,

 

the term ‘coal drop’ covers a multitude of options, but this is the sort I wondered if it might be:

 

Dead easy to install on an embankment, and if it is wide, it doesn’t need to be very tall to have decent capacity.

 

 

Another interesting one was Berkhampsted, where the gasworks was served by an 18” gauge horse-drawn railway from the station goods yard. If you Google it, there are pixies online of the crude, but effective ‘drop’ there.

 

At Helston I have a 1940's aerial photo, which is not really high enough definition but one can see the trucks on the embankment and the roadway about two truck widths away and something that looks like concrete in between over a length of around three truck lengths. So not enough for a bunker as you sketch but enough for some form of shute.

[Harlequin]

@Penlan Said:

Quote

At Helston, the Helston Gas Co's wagons had to be unloaded on the Coal siding, into horse drawn wagons, later Lorries, and carted across to the other side of Helston to the gas works.  That was between the A394 - Penzance Road and St Johns Road.

 

In this topic:

 

If you search for  '"Helston Station" Coal' you can find mentions of a "Coal shute" but when there is a photo it either shows what we have been calling the "Stone Shute" in the Stone shute siding or a shute in the "Old Coal Yard", which is some distance from the station.

http://www.helstonhistory.co.uk/history-around-helston-town/the-old-coal-yard/

 

[Andy Keane]

7 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

@Penlan Said:

 

In this topic:

 

If you search for  '"Helston Station" Coal' you can find mentions of a "Coal shute" but when there is a photo it either shows what we have been calling the "Stone Shute" in the Stone shute siding or a shute in the "Old Coal Yard", which is some distance from the station.

http://www.helstonhistory.co.uk/history-around-helston-town/the-old-coal-yard/

 

It seems we are unlikely to find a photo taken in the approach road to the goods yard below the embankment. But we do have lots of photos of coal wagons down there for unloading and clearly it helps unloading if there is a chute of some kind. So perhaps the reference to the "coal siding" is a reference to that spur beyond the engine loop and that runs parallel to the carriage siding. The aerial phot is too indistinct to be much help, except again showing open wagons down there and something between them and the road. My current plan is some kind of coal shute between the siding and a layby on the approach road (blocking the goods yard entrance with coal wagons wood presumambly not have been allowed). I will the position a horse and cart in the layby at some suitable point. The Jenkins book also says there was a large petrol tank down at the that end, presumably motor spirit tankers were emptied into it but again I have no photo so imagination will be needed. This is of course the trouble with the less glamorous side of stations - few people photograph them.  No doubt finally when I am done a picture will turn up jusyt the same!

Andy

[Andy Keane]

How about this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/5537187505 and this :

https://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/5537765818/in/photostream/
In my case it would be a lorry or horse cart at the bottom but this simple design would fit perfectly on the wall supporting the Helston embankment.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

Saw this at expoEM and wondered if it was based on a real prototype coal yard. A whole lot of coal unloading staithes.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Saw this at expoEM and wondered if it was based on a real prototype coal yard. A whole lot of coal unloading staithes.

 

Likewise. This is Sidmouth, isn't it? Referring to the show guide, I read that it is set in 1959/60. Being P4, one expects it to be an accurate depiction of the location. 

 

It did seem rather improbable; I didn't like to ask. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Compound2632

[Steamport Southport]

Yes. There was a coal merchants yard there. 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/

 

 

The hopper would be a PITA to empty/fill though.

 

 

Jason

 

 

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Likewise. This is Sidmouth, isn't it? Referring to the show guide, I read that it is set in 1959/60. Being P4, one expects it to be an accurate depiction of the location. 

 

It did seem rather improbable; I didn't like to ask. 

By then there was a gas works with its own double sidings according to the maps. Would there have been so much coal in the goods yard?

[Aire Head]

21 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Yes. There was a coal merchants yard there. 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/

 

 

The hopper would be a PITA to empty/fill though.

 

 

Jason

 

 

 

I can't see any images showing the yard arranged as shown on the model?

[Steamport Southport]

Just now, Aire Head said:

 

I can't see any images showing the yard arranged as shown on the model?

 

I expect the model is compressed for space reasons.

 

In one of the shots on Disused Stations you can just see the coal yard office.

 

 

 

Jason

[JimC]

The coal merchants building in the model is in the same position on the 25" OS map on NLS. No sign of the staithes, but not sure if that is expected.

 

[Andy Keane]

I still don't quite see how you unload a coal wagon on their layout right at the end of the siding. Would you have had to climb over the coal in the staith to get to the wagon or attempt to squeeze between the wagon and the woodwork?

[bécasse]

By and large, pens for domestic coal were introduced during WWII although they had existed at appropriate locations for industrial users of coal (who wanted stocks held in the rail yard because they didn't have suitable storage space on their own premises) and pens were also used for various building supplies (aggregates and sand, for example).

 

The change during WWII came about because of the desire to even out the year round flow of coal from the pits (and even ship more during the long summer days rather than in winter blackout). That inevitably entailed storage close to the final point of delivery, hence the pens. Before the war, individual coal merchants were inadequately capitalised to be able to fund the costs inherent in holding coal stocks that they were unable to immediately sell on to the final customer.

[Compound2632]

The structures on the model appeared to be substantially built walls, enclosing large areas. Was there some reason why Sidmouth might have been singled out for unusual treatment?

Edited May 18, 2022 by Compound2632

[Aire Head]

29 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I expect the model is compressed for space reasons.

 

In one of the shots on Disused Stations you can just see the coal yard office.

 

 

 

Jason

 

I don't doubt the coal merchants existed. I was more referring to the unusual arrangement of cells.

[Cwmtwrch]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This is Sidmouth, isn't it? Referring to the show guide, I read that it is set in 1959/60. Being P4, one expects it to be an accurate depiction of the location. 

 

It did seem rather improbable; I didn't like to ask. 

Reasonable, but operation is perhaps another matter, especially if the operators aren't old enough to remember the real railway [but then, that's not unique to P4 layouts]. I was surprised by the bogie ballast hopper next to the 16T though; these were quite tightly controlled, and would never have been used for coal, so why is it where it is, down the wrong end of a mileage siding?

[Aire Head]

14 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

so why is it where it is, down the wrong end of a mileage siding

 

Is it a mileage siding? It would be difficult to unload anything but open wagons. The van looks a little bit lost there too.

 

It's certainly a beautiful model and I'm completely open to the idea that it is correct however it's certainly outside of what I would consider "the norm"

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

Is it a mileage siding? It would be difficult to unload anything but open wagons. The van looks a little bit lost there too.

 

It also had the cattle dock but otherwise it looks like the principal siding for unloading bulk loads - coal, timber, etc.

 

As to operation, I imagine that however exquisitely modelled, totally realistic operation would be too dull for an exhibition. 

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Is it a mileage siding? It would be difficult to unload anything but open wagons. The van looks a little bit lost there too.

 

It's certainly a beautiful model and I'm completely open to the idea that it is correct however it's certainly outside of what I would consider "the norm"

Definitely a mileage siding even though the bulk of its length on the model appears dedicated to coal traffic (which was of course a mileage traffic).  There are spaces there which allow other traffics to be handled but planning the wagon placement would be an interesting exercise.  Possibly the model arrangement is a consequence of compression with a bit too much coal handling injected into the mix?

 

Photos of the place in operation times show considerable amounts of what was probably mileage traffic on the long siding beyond the good shed towards the yard entrance but I see that siding appears to be empty in the photo posted above.

[bécasse]

Photos of the real Sidmouth station, right up to the final period when it was being operated by WR dmus and bubble cars, show the coal office, mineral wagons, coal lorry and piles of coal on the ground and available 25" OS maps show no indications whatsoever of coal pens (even though these were normally shown where they existed). There is only one possible conclusion, there never were any coal pens at SIdmouth, and the ones that exist on the model in question are a (not unusual) figment of the modeller's imagination.

 

Incidentally, Sidmouth, with a population of around 10.000, would probably have needed around 5.000 tons of household coal a year (plus, of course, coal for the gasworks during the period it existed), an average of less than 10 wagonloads a week.

[Harlequin]

Just a reminder that, in this thread about "GWR Coal Drops", Sidmouth was an L&SWR and then Southern station - never GWR.

 

So maybe not a good example if you're looking for general GWR practice.