Imaginary Locomotives

[Alex Neth]

5 hours ago, mccormackpj said:

Here's an image of part of the article in the Railway Magazine Mar-Apr 1949 which featured the K2 tank. Perhaps a bit more useful for making that model?

Thank you so much.

[Johnson044]

On 31/01/2022 at 22:28, Alex Neth said:

More looks like a 15XX with the outside pistons.

Reminds me a bit of New Zealand E66

[Alex Neth]

(If you see any grammar mistakes or info mistakes feel free to tell me, and I will fix it.)

So, lets talk about James.

For those who don't know, James is a 2-6-0 tender engine with 2 insid-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah... who cares, everyone knows him. You know his basis, the L&YR class 28, mogul version, which never existed, to help with stability issues with the smoke box. His model, however, does not depict the fake basis correctly. The Rev's model was of the G&SWR 403, aka Austrian Goods, which was going to be Jame's prototype basis.But this wasn't carried out, for some reason. But my theory is that the Austrian Goods look weird. The smoke box looks short, and the smoke box door looks too small. It looks like the NER Class P3 with the cab shorted and opened up.

But then that brings up the fact that the L&YR 28 doesn't look like James either. The boiler is too high up, the bellpaire fire box doesn't match the shape, the cab height is closer to the fire box height, the cab windows are on the side instead of on top. There are some characteristics that do carry over to James, like the funnel and dome heights.

Lets try some other Moguls, how about the CR 34 class? It's a good loco, but doesn't look like James, no bellbaire, base of smokebox too wide, windows too circular, and overall is too Scottish. Nothing is wrong with that, it's just Jame's isn't Scottish.

There is one more inside 2-6-0, the DSER class 15 and 16. It does have a good resemblance to James, minus the dome, funnel, and boiler height. If those could be fixed, then we have ourselves a good James!

But, however, then James would be Irish, and we want him to be English.

 

In conclusion, there will never be a perfect basis for James, but we can make good, alternative versions. Like mine I came up with. It is a version of the LB&SCR K class (as below) with the footplate flattened out, and the splashers increased in size about 15%/20%, cab height increased with the windows being above the boiler, as seen in Jame's model, the outside pistons being removed, funnel height increase to reach the height of the cab, and finally the top of the bellpaire needs to be rounded on top, like James model. I would do it in photoshop but I would have no idea of what I'm doing, so I'm out of luck.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Alex Neth

[AlfaZagato]

TBF almost none of the TV models were good representations of Awdry's writing.   Looking at the Rev. Awdry books, James looks like a pastiche of the K boiler & firebox, with the 403 cab and footplate.   Applies well to the Dalby illustrations.   Neither Kenney nor the Edwards seem to have drawn him much.

[Joseph the L&YR lover]

5 hours ago, Alex Neth said:

(If you see any grammar mistakes or info mistakes feel free to tell me, and I will fix it.)

So, lets talk about James.

For those who don't know, James is a 2-6-0 tender engine with 2 insid-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah... who cares, everyone knows him. You know his basis, the L&YR class 28, mogul version, which never existed, to help with stability issues with the smoke box. His model, however, does not depict the fake basis correctly. The Rev's model was of the G&SWR 403, aka Austrian Goods, which was going to be Jame's prototype basis.But this wasn't carried out, for some reason. But my theory is that the Austrian Goods look weird. The smoke box looks short, and the smoke box door looks too small. It looks like the NER Class P3 with the cab shorted and opened up.

But then that brings up the fact that the L&YR 28 doesn't look like James either. The boiler is too high up, the bellpaire fire box doesn't match the shape, the cab height is closer to the fire box height, the cab windows are on the side instead of on top. There are some characteristics that do carry over to James, like the funnel and dome heights.

Lets try some other Moguls, how about the CR 34 class? It's a good loco, but doesn't look like James, no bellbaire, base of smokebox too wide, windows too circular, and overall is too Scottish. Nothing is wrong with that, it's just Jame's isn't Scottish.

There is one more inside 2-6-0, the DSER class 15 and 16. It does have a good resemblance to James, minus the dome, funnel, and boiler height. If those could be fixed, then we have ourselves a good James!

But, however, then James would be Irish, and we want him to be English.

 

In conclusion, there will never be a perfect basis for James, but we can make good, alternative versions. Like mine I came up with. It is a version of the LB&SCR K class (as below) with the footplate flattened out, and the splashers increased in size about 15%/20%, cab height increased with the windows being above the boiler, as seen in Jame's model, the outside pistons being removed, funnel height increase to reach the height of the cab, and finally the top of the bellpaire needs to be rounded on top, like James model. I would do it in photoshop but I would have no idea of what I'm doing, so I'm out of luck.

is an example of the illustrations being weird, would stick to the written basis (no, there is no conflict of interest, why do you ask?) for this.

[Johnson044]

I'm sure I remember that when James is first introduced he has something of a different shape, is painted black and has a major rebuild following an accident where he was overcome by the weight of the train and his wooden brake shoes couldn't stop him? Did he gain the belpaire firebox then? Henry got one after the Flying Kipper derailment, after which he turned into a sort of Green Five?

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

TBF almost none of the TV models were good representations of Awdry's writing.   Looking at the Rev. Awdry books, James looks like a pastiche of the K boiler & firebox, with the 403 cab and footplate.   Applies well to the Dalby illustrations.   Neither Kenney nor the Edwards seem to have drawn him much.

 

It's always* been obvious to me that there's a good deal of Derby in James - and not just the colour red. Hornby were onto a thing when they made him by modifying the old Triang 3F tooling. His wooden brakeblocks smack more of Crewe, though.

 

*Well, ever since I could say "compound"...

  

2 minutes ago, Johnson044 said:

I'm sure I remember that when James is first introduced he has something of a different shape, is painted black and has a major rebuild following an accident where he was overcome by the weight of the train and his wooden brake shoes couldn't stop him? Did he gain the belpaire firebox then? 

 

I'm afraid you mis-remember. When James is introduced, in Thomas and the Brakedown Train, he is drawn exactly as he appears in James the Red Engine, apart from being black with red lining.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[Johnson044]

The Great North of Scotland flirted with the idea of a mogul for a while. More than a hint of Derby there, too, I think.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Johnson044 said:

The Great North of Scotland flirted with the idea of a mogul for a while. More than a hint of Derby there, too, I think.

 

Hum, yes, one could see James as an inside-cylinder version of one of those - the proportions look right; the G&SW 403 Class, the CR 34 Class, and the D&SE engines are all too small-wheeled and long-wheelbased. The LB&SC Class K is also closer to James' proportions - and there was longstanding Midland heritage at Brighton, too.

  

7 hours ago, Alex Neth said:

But, however, then James would be Irish, and we want him to be English.

 

I'll call you out on that. Quite apart from the two Scottish engines being produced under the superintendencies of Drummond, an Ayrshireman, and McIntosh, from Angus, and built in Glasgow, at Queens Park and St Rollox respectively, Billinton fils was half-Polish and the D&SE locomotives were built at Beyer, Peacock's Gorton works. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[Johnson044]

...and at Inverurie too.

[Johnson044]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum, yes, one could see James as an inside-cylinder version of one of those - the proportions look right; the G&SW 403 Class, the CR 34 Class, and the D&SE engines are all too small-wheeled and long-wheelbased. The LB&SC Class K is also closer to James' proportions - and there was longstanding Midland heritage at Brighton, too.

  

 

I'll call you out on that. Quite apart from the two Scottish engines being produced under the superintendencies of Drummond, an Ayrshireman, and McIntosh, from Angus, and built in Glasgow, at Queens Park and St Rollox respectively, Billinton fils was half-Polish and the D&SE locomotives were built at Beyer, Peacock's Gorton works. 

 

...and the Woolwich moguls? Maybe we ought to have this conversation at a meeting of the Castle Aching Parish Council...

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Johnson044 said:

...and the Woolwich moguls? 

 

The very best of Derby, thanks to James Clayton, and designed under the superintendency of Maunsell, who was from from Co. Dublin and trained at Inchicore before moving to Horwich. The engines were a notable success in Ireland, too.

 

But even further from James.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[Corbs]

In the spirit of trying to match the illustrations of someone who wasn't copying a prototype to real life locos, what's this then?

 

[The Johnster]

LNWR ‘Prince of Wales’?

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

LNWR ‘Prince of Wales’?

 

Has to be. No doubt about it.

[DK123GWR]

54 minutes ago, Corbs said:

In the spirit of trying to match the illustrations of someone who wasn't copying a prototype to real life locos, what's this then?

 

Perhaps they could give it the tender from this large prairie:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.co.uk%2Fandytyrer64%2Fswindon-town-fc%2F&psig=AOvVaw0l_5GupIlZC9KAc9PxwQFm&ust=1644064708954000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCIjdwtSI5vUCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

Perhaps they could give it the tender from this large prairie:

 

And it's not just any old tender but, just to rub salt into the wound, very clearly a Derby tender (Midland, LMS, or Southern).

[JimC]

Well that's obvious enough. The prairie is shunting a sludge tender. Much scope for amusement in associating sludge with soccer...

 

[Johnson044]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Has to be. No doubt about it.

Noooooo! It's a B12!

[John Besley]

13 minutes ago, JimC said:

Well that's obvious enough. The prairie is shunting a sludge tender. Much scope for amusement in associating sludge with soccer...

 

 

Which neatly takes us back to when Gordon wanted an extra tender like Flying Scotsman and ended up with sludge tenders

[Corbs]

48 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

LNWR ‘Prince of Wales’?

 

Right livery!

[eldomtom2]

9 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

TBF almost none of the TV models were good representations of Awdry's writing.   Looking at the Rev. Awdry books, James looks like a pastiche of the K boiler & firebox, with the 403 cab and footplate.   Applies well to the Dalby illustrations.   Neither Kenney nor the Edwards seem to have drawn him much.

Well - the TV models were quite decent representations of Dalby's illustrations (barring misinterpretations like Thomas' safety valve morphing into a pair of whistles) considering the inconsistency of Dalby's illustrations and the fact that they had to fit on Marklin chassis.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Johnson044 said:

Noooooo! It's a B12!

 

Nah. Cab is wrong.

[Alex Neth]

Me looking at the numerous replies to me talking about James:

Also I found a photoshopped red K class:

Edited February 4, 2022 by Alex Neth

[mccormackpj]

8 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

The Great North of Scotland flirted with the idea of a mogul for a while. More than a hint of Derby there, too, I think.

These Mogul proposals are very interesting indeed. What year(s) were they drafted? I'm guessing sometime 1910 - 1922, and possibly post-war.
There seems to have been a period of "Mogul Mania" about that time, not only the ARLE, Caley and GCR proposals, the Maunsell locos on the SECR, but also these GNoSR examples.
However, so far I've not seen any mention of the Cambrian's effort under GC McDonald's tenure at Oswestry. Does anyone have access to vol 2 of the David & Charles history of the Cambrian by Christiansen & Miller? IIRC, there's an outline of the proposed 2-6-0 in there.