William's Workbench - LBSCR, LC&DR & SER in 4mm, and Gauge 1

[t-b-g]

I am building some points in OO at the moment and I attach a snap of the gauges I am using. The brass strip is 1.2mm thick for the check rail gauge. I have two like that to help align the wing rails with the crossing nose. The L shaped gauge is actually an EM back to back gauge and measures 16.5mm very well. The nickel silver one I cut from sheet as the back to back gauge can't get between the check rails. The rebate in the end is just to allow the two prongs to go down into flangeway gaps and they are not used for measuring or setting anything. I found it fairly easy to mark and cut something at 16.5mm and measured with a vernier it is accurate enough. I haven't used a roller type gauge for some time now and don't find one necessary.

Edited December 11, 2021 by t-b-g
Correct typo

[Izzy]

 

@Izzy are you talking about soldered pcb/etch construction or plastic chairs? I feel like doing this with all plastic chairs - particularly around the vee - is like trying to do it with one arm tied behind my back!

 

either/any/both. Forgive me please but I don’t quite see how the sequence I use makes it more difficult. What is it that I am missing here I wonder. Actually I first used it with whitemetal chairs glued on ply sleepers with evo-stick, and was following the lead set by Ian Pusey who was a well known & highly regarded S gauge modeller. It was you will understand a very slow process. Todays plastic chairs on ply/plastic sleepers ( I’ve never used the latter except in tests), is so much quicker and easier. When I did eventually work in S for a few years I ended up using the then ‘new’ 4mm plastic chairs & rail giving a lightly laid permanent way look….

 

 

Hmmm. Something's not quite right - the wing rail is gauged properly against the curved stock rail, but slipping the flangeway gauge through the curved route strikes the nose.

 

This can happen but isn’t the end of the world. It depends if you intended a straight course through the crossing, or a curvilinear one. So long as the checkrail pulls the wheel flange over sufficiently - why it’s gauged from the V - then it shouldn’t be an issue. In a general sense where the wing and stock rail are located is immaterial/ secondary to this. It basically revolves around whether the turnout design uses straight sections through the blades and crossing joined by curvature, (standard basic template produced in Templot), or these are curved to some degree as well, which is possible. So, it all depends…..!

 

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, Regularity said:

Make your own, using the late Norman Pattenden’s method:

Take a length of hexagonal bar stock, and chuck it in the 3-jaw chuck. Drill through and tap for whatever size studding you have available. Part off four lengths to be the distance over the check rails and tap the holes, or at least the ends. You can also buy threaded spacers for use in electronics, and put them onto threaded studding to adjust the gauge, if you don’t have a lathe.

Get some sheet material of the same thickness as you flangeways for straight straight track, plus the 3 gauge widenings used on the prototype. Cut two rectangles out of each, and drill a hole in the middle to clear whatever size of studding you are using. Cut 8 more rectangles out of sheet material, to the same width as the previous rectangles but shorter by about the full height of your rail. Drill holes centrally for tapping, and tap.

Assemble to create simple track gauges that will set the distances, but not clamp the rail (otherwise inclined rail will be made vertical, and removal of the gauges will lead to gauge narrowing).

 

They should look something like the following:

 

 

 

Or 8ba studding, nuts and washers

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Hmmm. Something's not quite right - the wing rail is gauged properly against the curved stock rail, but slipping the flangeway gauge through the curved route strikes the nose.

 

I used a straight edge to continue the curved rail parallel with the angle of the vee, but clearly it has drifted infinitesimally, so I had a real mare trying to get the wing rail aligned properly and had to tweak the angle slightly - which is presumably how the geometry's off there.

 

Either way, it appeared to roll smoothly through. I felt the faintest whisper of a rub around the knuckle area so to see if I could alleviate that, I shifted the new wing rail a little longitudinally to no avail. After a little bit of fiddling, now my wagon rides up over the knuckle

 

i really hope my work so far hasn't been wasted, gosh  I know it's rewarding when it works, but I'm not entirely sure where I've gone wrong here and that's quite a few hours down the pan

 

@Izzy are you talking about soldered pcb/etch construction or plastic chairs? I feel like doing this with all plastic chairs - particularly around the vee - is like trying to do it with one arm tied behind my back!

 

@Regularity thank you for the drawing of the gauges, next time I'm in the workshop I'll have a look - I think I have some 5BA studding laying around.

 

You may well have the bend in the rail in the wrong place. Important that the knuckle has the correct gap, but it may be a tad wider as the bend is round not a sharp bend.

 

The part of the wing rail in front of the vee and the curved stock rail can be glued at the same time using a roller gauge and adjusted together accordingly

 

[Regularity]

14 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Or 8ba studding, nuts and washers

As long as the washers are the correct thickness.

You also need to file a flat, so that the gauge stays put and doesn’t roll away.

[Lacathedrale]

Hmmm... I guess I did not give full credit on how small the threshold between 'works fine' and 'completely non-functional' was in P4 ...

 

Gently re-adjusted the curved wing rail and it all slotted back into place. I think I would really like to have a fully assembled common crossing for the next one...

[Lacathedrale]

@hayfield what's the best way to determine a) where the centre of the bend in the wing rail really is, and b) where that should fall on the template? This is a 1:8 so fairly shallow and with the various rail components on a 2nd printout (i.e. without timbers) it looked perfect...

[hayfield]

Firstly look at the template

 

However put a wing rail gauge against the Vee, then with a scalpel scribe a line on the X timber, do both sides then scribe the switch rail line by scribing the other side of the wing rail gauge on the X timber 

[Lacathedrale]

Without too much swearing, got most of it down and working. I added about 50g of liquid lead to the underside of my wagon and it sails through with no problem. I've not got any tiebars sorted yet, so unless someone gives me a suggestion I'm just going to solder the tips to a long piece of copperclad to test that end of the turnout:

 

 

I still need to add the curved road slide chairs and figure out how the heck I'm going to power the wing rails and switch blades...

Edited December 11, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[hayfield]

Bond the switch blades to the stock rails and wire across the common crossing using thin brass wire soldered, across the bottom of rails. Tin the rails first then in and out very quickly with a hot iron

 

I superglue the slide chairs to the rails then using a gauge glue the chairs to the timbers with solvent

[Lacathedrale]

Thank you - I'll have to use some meths to get the double sided tape off, I guess!

[Lacathedrale]

17 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I am building some points in OO at the moment and I attach a snap of the gauges I am using. The brass strip is 1.2mm thick for the check rail gauge. I have two like that to help align the wing rails with the crossing nose. The L shaped gauge is actually an EM back to back gauge and measures 16.5mm very well. The nickel silver one I cut from sheet as the back to back gauge can't get between the check rails. The rebate in the end is just to allow the two prongs to go down into flangeway gaps and they are not used for measuring or setting anything. I found it fairly easy to mark and cut something at 16.5mm and measured with a vernier it is accurate enough. I haven't used a roller type gauge for some time now and don't find one necessary.

 

I meant to ask on this - 00-SF or vanilla 00-BF?

[hayfield]

I don't want to take over your thread, but these may help. I tape a plan to a building board, cover it with tracing paper and run two thin lines of double sided tape along the timbers 

 

 

By doing this the turnout can be lifted from the plan and allows access to the rear of it. It also allows me to remove some backing to gain access to the rails

You can see where the 2 lines of tape run

 

   There are no problems soldering wire to the rail so close to the plastic

 

This shows the common crossing electrical bonding

 

 

Much the same for the switch rails, just go in and out as quick as you can, you only need to heat the joint, not the surroundings

 

 

This is something I am just starting to work on, a single slip. I have no problems building the common crossings as a sub assembly. But I prefer to build the obtuse (K) crossings and slip in situ.

 

I use ply timbers to start the build, once the crossing has been built and cleaned up, plastic timbers will replace them.

 

I think it would be correct to assume the same (plastic only) system ,using only plastic chairs and timbers could be used, but you would need the Exactoscale E4CH 504A slip pack and E4CH 503A obtuse crossing pack, then electrically bond the rails as per the common crossing. If it works for common crossings it should work for obtuse crossings. Its just I have not tried it yet

 

Another method Is to use copperclad timbers sparingly, using brass chairs and or risers from either thin copperclad or metal strip 

[t-b-g]

4 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

I meant to ask on this - 00-SF or vanilla 00-BF?

 

I lose track of all the different names and what each one stands for but these are 16.5mm gauge with a 1.2mm flangeway.

 

I use a strip of metal under the crossing nose and the adjacent sleeper. These are soldered to the crossing nose. Then the wing rails are soldered to the strip, which is then cut away with a slitting disc to leave a nice flush edge to stick a half chair to the outside. It gives strength, electrical continuity and something easy to adjust and get right before the chairs are fitted.

 

There was a thread way back when about making points that I put a few other photos on. They show the general idea. These were built quite a few years ago, when I still used a roller gauge but my methods have changed a bit since then.

 

 

I think the one thing I have learned is that there is no single way that these jobs can be done that is either the best way or the right way. There are just different ways that really come down to personal preference. I think each of us finds a technique and a sequence that we like and which suits us and we tend to stick with that.

 

The finished point at that time looked like this:

 

  

[hayfield]

1.2 mm flangeway is 00-SF

 

Many gauge widen to 16.5 at the ends to match RTR flexitrack

[t-b-g]

25 minutes ago, hayfield said:

1.2 mm flangeway is 00-SF

 

Many gauge widen to 16.5 at the ends to match RTR flexitrack

 

I am not sure that it is. It is listed in Templot as DOGAI and described as Intermediate. The gauge is already 16.5mm, so I don't need to gauge widen and I always thought that OO-SF had a gauge of 16.2mm and a 1mm flangeway gap.

 

All I know is that my test wagon, with Bachmann wheels set to 14.5mm back to back go through very nicely and it should accept wheels that have narrower back to backs of down to around 14.2mm. The worst modern RTR wheels I have encountered have a flange approx 1mm thick, so the 1.2mm gap caters for them. It seems a good compromise to me in terms of gauge and flangeways.

[Siberian Snooper]

I would agree,  that 00sf or 4sf has a gauge of 16.2mm and a flangeway gap of 1mm, ie 18.2 -2mm.

 

 

[t-b-g]

As it happens, I have been building another OO point today, so I took some photos to show the stages that I use.

 

The first ones show the making of the crossing nose, one rail, then the next, in situ on the point. Then the strips are added and the V is soldered up. The first stock rail is then added using the 16.5mm gauge. I will add more in another post so I don't exceed the size limit.

[t-b-g]

Next batch....

 

 

The second stock rail is added, again using the 16.5mm gauge.

 

 

These show the setting up of the first wing rail. The 16.5mm gauge sets the alignment with the running rail and the 1.2mm brass strip sets the check gap. At this stage, the wing rail is only held be the two plastic chairs and can be slid along until the check gap is right, then it is soldered to the metal strips.

[t-b-g]

Last batch.

 

 

The second wing rail is added using just the 1.2mm strip, checking the gauge with the nickel silver gauge I showed earlier. Again, it can slide in the plastic chairs until the gauge fits in the other slot. That is the difficult bit over! The last photo shows the blades and check rails added. It still needs dummy half chairs, slide chairs and a tie bar/stretcher bar but they will wait until tomorrow now.

[Lacathedrale]

Wow, I have NEVER seen someone solder the vee in-situ like that, bravo!

 

I believe I have some 4mm timbers knocking around, so I think trying that with some 0.5mm shim under the vee for the wing rail fixing is my next plan. I think I'll give 00 a shot and see how it compares.

[Lacathedrale]

I've still yet to make a decision between 00 with 00-SF turnouts, or EM - so I decided to split the difference and model in 17.2mm gauge which I am calling 00-SF+1 or EM-1 depending on your preference:

 

Home made 17.2mm roller gauges

 

Just kidding - my workshop is fully imperial, so I quickly sketched up the design in QCAD and converted to thou - so I didn't notice until I got back in and compared with a metric ruler that I had forgotten to subtract the flangeway thicknesses from the inside of the gauge. Thankfully, nothing is loctited yet so it's a simple matter of replacing or turning down the barrel.

 

I feel like a total imbecile but can someone tell me what those measurements should be, for a check-rail gauge and a standard roller gauge?

 

Roller gauge barrel length - 14.2mm in 00-SF, 16.2mm in EM

Check gauge barrel length - 15.2mm in 00-SF, 17.2mm in EM

 

Is that correct?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[martin_wynne]

On 11/12/2021 at 16:32, Lacathedrale said:

@hayfield what's the best way to determine a) where the centre of the bend in the wing rail really is, and b) where that should fall on the template? This is a 1:8 so fairly shallow and with the various rail components on a 2nd printout (i.e. without timbers) it looked perfect...

 

@Lacathedrale

 

Hi William,

 

That's what these 3 orange marks on the template are for. The middle mark shows the location of the centre of the knuckle bend in the wing rails. The outer marks show the extent of the bend radius:

 

 

 

It's always worth printing a duplicate of the template when track building. That way you can refer to any details obscured by the timbers.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited December 14, 2021 by martin_wynne

[Lacathedrale]

Thanks Martin, I didn't know about those - I've got a duplicate template so I'm right that far - but didn't see them. I'm printing with a black and white printer so I wonder it's merged in with the tie colour.

 

You're hte man in the know about these things - are the EM and 00-SF gauge dimensions I noted above correct please?

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

Thanks Martin, I didn't know about those - I've got a duplicate template so I'm right that far - but didn't see them. I'm printing with a black and white printer so I wonder it's merged in with the tie colour.

 

You're hte man in the know about these things - are the EM and 00-SF gauge dimensions I noted above correct please?

@Lacathedrale

 

Hi William,

 

The marks should be visible on a monochrome printer:

 

 

Which dimensions?

 

For 00-SF and EM, see: https://85a.uk/00-sf/dimensions.php

 

For EM add 2.0mm to all the relevant dimensions shown.

 

If you are making your own gauge tools, here is the drawing of the 00-SF check gauge tool:

 

(the arrowed dimensions are the critical ones -- 17.20 for EM)

 

v=vee

w=wing rail

c=check rail

r=running rail

f=flat to fit over vee

With 0.92mm rail it is possible for the check gauge to go as low as 15.16mm if the rail is left  loose in the slots and the gauge tool is on the limits. Experienced users will know to pack the slots with aluminium cooking foil to get a good fit in the gauge tool for maximum accuracy. Unfortunately batches of rail vary, so this is unavoidable with fixed-slot gauge tools usable on any batch of rail. If you are making your own gauge tool, you could make a spring-loaded self-adjusting design instead.

The finished check gauge should not be less than 15.2mm on the track.

The tool diameter should be as small as convenient. Ideally it should fit between adjacent timbers, allowing soldering to take place on both sides. If you are planning constructing complex formations, it is worth milling flats on each side for better access.

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited December 14, 2021 by martin_wynne