New tooling - BR Standard 2MT 2-6-0 2MT 78xxx

[Paul_sterling]

On 05/05/2022 at 12:40, stewartingram said:

A 78xxx has always been on my "Grade A" wishlist, as a common sight at Cambridge until the closure of the St.Ives-Kettering branch. 3-4 years ago I picked up a Bachmann 464xx s/h at the Doncaster show; I also acquired a conversion kit from Crownline (though more suited to the Triang-Hornby model), and added the (unadvertised) parts from Judith Edge. I've got about 80% through a combination of those three, but had decided that the new Hornby one had to come as well. I'm now seriously thinking it won't, because of price rises (and I'm not one that usually moans about these), it has risen out of my league since I retired. Their loss, not mine.

 

Out of interest, how close is the bottom end of the Ivatt to the 2MT? 

 

I'm considering doing what I've done with my 3D print offerings and CAD'ing up the 2MT top to fit the Ivatt. Because the cost and time of the Hornby offering are creating a 'window' shall we say. 

 

Thanks 

        Paul.

[Pre Grouping fan]

8 minutes ago, Bulleidboy100 said:

I am glad  I did pre-order R3837 BR Standard 2MT 78022 (Hornby Club Exclusive) at £149.99. A tremendous saving on the latest quoted prices.

 

So am I! Also consider myself lucky that I managed to join the club to order it around the time there was issues with new memberships. I watched the membership page like a hawk and managed to join before they made it public.

[Watto1990]

32 minutes ago, Bulleidboy100 said:

I am glad  I did pre-order R3837 BR Standard 2MT 78022 (Hornby Club Exclusive) at £149.99. A tremendous saving on the latest quoted prices.

I’m not counting on actually receiving it at that price but it’ll be the absolute bargain if the year if it pans out. Which year, who can say!

[RedgateModels]

32 minutes ago, Paul_sterling said:

 

Out of interest, how close is the bottom end of the Ivatt to the 2MT? 

 

I'm considering doing what I've done with my 3D print offerings and CAD'ing up the 2MT top to fit the Ivatt. Because the cost and time of the Hornby offering are creating a 'window' shall we say. 

 

Thanks 

        Paul.

 

I think the only differences were the cab (loco and tender), different top feed arrangements, blower tunnel etc and the infill panels on the front footplating. The Bluebell are making a class 2 standard tank from an Ivatt 2-6-0, so that's an indication that the chassis, wheels, valve gear etc are the same. 

I would welcome some 3D printed bits to convert a Bachmann Ivatt. I'm more inclined to do some modelling than open a box anyway ;)

Standard 3 2-6-0 bodyshell next?

Edited May 27, 2022 by RedgateModels

[Bulleidboy100]

56 minutes ago, Watto1990 said:

I’m not counting on actually receiving it at that price but it’ll be the absolute bargain if the year if it pans out. Which year, who can say!

It will be interesting to see how Hornby handle this one. I have over the years pre-ordered at the time of announcement, and Hornby have always honoured the price as at the time of the order. This time the current price is significantly higher than the original annnoucement price - the price of £149.99 was the Hornby Collector Club price - so discounted.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

 

I think the only differences were the cab (loco and tender), different top feed arrangements, blower tunnel etc and the infill panels on the front footplating. The Bluebell are making a class 2 standard tank from an Ivatt 2-6-0, so that's an indication that the chassis, wheels, valve gear etc are the same. 

I would welcome some 3D printed bits to convert a Bachmann Ivatt. I'm more inclined to do some modelling than open a box anyway ;)

Standard 3 2-6-0 bodyshell next?

 

The new 84XXX is from a BR 78XXX. 78059 to be precise.

 

It's one of the locomotives that had lost it's tender whilst at Barry and it was deemed cheaper to rebuild it as a 84XXX than build a new one.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/78059-2/

 

I don't think they shared many parts with the Ivatts as they were being built at the same time.

 

 

Jason

[Paul_sterling]

2 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

I think the only differences were the cab (loco and tender), different top feed arrangements, blower tunnel etc and the infill panels on the front footplating. The Bluebell are making a class 2 standard tank from an Ivatt 2-6-0, so that's an indication that the chassis, wheels, valve gear etc are the same. 

I would welcome some 3D printed bits to convert a Bachmann Ivatt. I'm more inclined to do some modelling than open a box anyway ;)

Standard 3 2-6-0 bodyshell next?

 

To be honest I'd thought about doing the 3MT for some time. Using a 4mt as a donor.

 

Okay the wheels are different types, but they are the same dia, and my shells have always been aimed at those who want unusual models that don't have the time or perhaps the skills to build kits, I.e. me.

 

With Hornby announcing the 2MT, I thought that particular line unnecessary, but further and further back delivery goes and higher and higher the price climbs. I mentioned in a previous post I originally sold my Bachmann ivatt to fund the purchase, but have since bought another and walked away from pre-order. Nice to have was always going to be vulnerable to cancellation if the manufacturer bumped the price up too far, and I'm sure others subscribe to that approach as well. 

 

Paul. 

[RedgateModels]

17 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The new 84XXX is from a BR 78XXX. 78059 to be precise.

 

It's one of the locomotives that had lost it's tender whilst at Barry and it was deemed cheaper to rebuild it as a 84XXX than build a new one.

 

 You are of course quite correct 👍

[SteamingWales]

Having a mooch on the Hornby website to see if the engine shed blog for August had been released (probably a bit early) and thought I would check on the 2MT delivery.

 

It would appear the later batch (78054 and 78006) have changed to delivery Spring 2023 from Autumn 2023

 

Only in the world of Hornby can a second batch apparently be delivered before the first!

 

 

 

[Northmoor MPD]

2 hours ago, SteamingWales said:

Having a mooch on the Hornby website to see if the engine shed blog for August had been released (probably a bit early) and thought I would check on the 2MT delivery.

 

It would appear the later batch (78054 and 78006) have changed to delivery Spring 2023 from Autumn 2023

 

Only in the world of Hornby can a second batch apparently be delivered before the first!

 

 

 

I’m honestly beginning to wonder if we’ll ever see them! 
The decorated samples were shown maybe 18 months ago now? 
Surely the demand for these must be quite high, I recon another manufacturer could start these and still beat Hornby at this rate!

[Northmoor MPD]

4 minutes ago, Northmoor MPD said:

I’m honestly beginning to wonder if we’ll ever see them! 
The decorated samples were shown maybe 18 months ago now? 
Surely the demand for these must be quite high, I recon another manufacturer could start these and still beat Hornby at this rate!

Hornby posted photos of the pre-production samples in the October 2020 issue of the engine shed. 
That’s some serious delay!

[The Black Hat]

I can see it where again the second batch arrives soon after the first and then has people saying it is not selling well and not wanted. The K1 did that and sat on shelves for a bit. 

I can see these being popular though as the standard classes are the ones people really want, even after the delay and price rise. 

[stewartingram]

I must admit, one of these was on my A-list, but my interest has waned. I got a cheap Bacch LMS conversion, along with an old Crownline conversion kit (for a Hornby one, so needed some adaption), and another conversion set of etches (Judith Edge). From the 3 of these I'm about 80% through the conversion, it seems ok to me (and I must get on with finishing it). I'm not usually one to complain about prices, I accept what they are, but the price seems to be way too high for me to keep it on the A-list (I am retired now!). Also, Hornby attitudes of late don't do a lot for me; I'm not one to boycott manufacturers (I buy what I think I need by type rather than manufacturer), so interest has waned considerably even though the class of loco is high on the A-list.

[Hilux5972]

6 hours ago, Northmoor MPD said:

I’m honestly beginning to wonder if we’ll ever see them! 

Seriously? Hornby aren’t going to spend £100,000’s on tooling etc and then just decide not to release them. We have no idea what could have happened. The factory could have shut down, had a major fire, be struggling with covid still. Could be anything. 

[Northmoor MPD]

51 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Seriously? Hornby aren’t going to spend £100,000’s on tooling etc and then just decide not to release them. We have no idea what could have happened. The factory could have shut down, had a major fire, be struggling with covid still. Could be anything. 

Yeah I obviously wasn’t being completely serious…

Of course they’re going to release them at some point, just saying it’s odd it’s taking nearly 3 years to bring them from pre-production samples to a production run!

[Blandford1969]

23 minutes ago, Northmoor MPD said:

Yeah I obviously wasn’t being completely serious…

Of course they’re going to release them at some point, just saying it’s odd it’s taking nearly 3 years to bring them from pre-production samples to a production run!

The problems China has faced with Covid and then the repercussions have been well documented. I'm sure Hornby will be wanting to recoup their investment. 

[TomScrut]

56 minutes ago, Blandford1969 said:

The problems China has faced with Covid and then the repercussions have been well documented. I'm sure Hornby will be wanting to recoup their investment. 

 

6 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

I can see it where again the second batch arrives soon after the first and then has people saying it is not selling well and not wanted.

 

Well I was thinking that it could be that they are prioritising other stuff that is doing better on presale? Yes they will end up making them, and yes they will want to recoup their investment, but they may also be thinking that stuff that is selling quickly on pre order is the fastest way to turn the cash around.

 

Not saying these haven't sold well or anything, it is pure speculation.

[RedgateModels]

10 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

 

Well I was thinking that it could be that they are prioritising other stuff that is doing better on presale? Yes they will end up making them, and yes they will want to recoup their investment, but they may also be thinking that stuff that is selling quickly on pre order is the fastest way to turn the cash around.

 

Not saying these haven't sold well or anything, it is pure speculation.

 

Again I'm speculating as I have no idea how well these are pre-selling, but I can't help thinking that the price point is against it. My gut reaction is that "it's too much for a little engine". I know that a 2-6-0 will cost just as much to make as a 4-6-2, or even a 2-10-0 but I can't help making that value judgement in my mind.

 

I would like one in the collection, but lots of other big shiny things attract my eye more. I can't be the only one.

[Wheatley]

32 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

Again I'm speculating as I have no idea how well these are pre-selling, but I can't help thinking that the price point is against it. My gut reaction is that "it's too much for a little engine". I know that a 2-6-0 will cost just as much to make as a 4-6-2, or even a 2-10-0 but I can't help making that value judgement in my mind.

I'm glad you've said that because I'm usually the one getting flamed for going "OW MUCH ?", and I think you're right. 

 

This is absolutely signature traction for me, to the extent that the DJH kit has been sitting in the roundtuit pile for 30 years now, half built and waiting to emerge as 78016 or 78026 of Stranraer. 

 

But it's taken so long I've actually nearly finished the DJH kit (it just needs the chassis painting and the pickups fitting) so that's 78016 sorted and I don't need the Hornby one any more. I might add 78026 but only if Hattons end up with a load reduced to clear at some point. A second hand Ivatt and the Crownline kit is still an option for that though. 

 

Too late and too much Hornby. 

[SteamingWales]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

Again I'm speculating as I have no idea how well these are pre-selling, but I can't help thinking that the price point is against it. My gut reaction is that "it's too much for a little engine". I know that a 2-6-0 will cost just as much to make as a 4-6-2, or even a 2-10-0 but I can't help making that value judgement in my mind.

 

53 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

I'm glad you've said that because I'm usually the one getting flamed for going "OW MUCH ?", and I think you're right.

 

I have to agree a bit on price and also have the kind of mentality that "little engines should cost less" though that is not really how things work.

 

I am only getting one (78006) as the class is a Cambrian network "essential". If the price was different I would maybe have bought 78000 as well.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by SteamingWales

[adb968008]

To be fair on Hornby, loads of stuff is falling into the “years late” category.

The class 59 painted samples were at Warley in 2018.

 

KRs fell was being assembled last October and they hoped for an outside chance of a Christmas 2021 delivery.. and its still not quite here.

 

Its easier for factories to do CAD, Artwork, Design research, even cut metal over the last few years as much of this can be work from home, or minimal staffing required.

 

Gathering a few dozen/hundreds people in a factory floor to make, paint and assemble everything during covid is very hard, especially when China is still locking down as hard as we were in 2020, 2 years later.

I think we are going to be volume constrained for a few years whilst “1st” runs are pressed from new toolings, but getting subsequent batches maybe a lottery given how much stuff (>50 toolings in oo alone) are awaiting production and delivery… theres only so much floor space in China, and thats being constrained.

 

Considering were heading towards a recession, if not crash, a few delays may not be the worst thing for collectors.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

 

Well I was thinking that it could be that they are prioritising other stuff that is doing better on presale? Yes they will end up making them, and yes they will want to recoup their investment, but they may also be thinking that stuff that is selling quickly on pre order is the fastest way to turn the cash around.

 

Not saying these haven't sold well or anything, it is pure speculation.

Well they all too obviously pushed their Titfield adventure up the production order in order to try and beat Rapido to market.   And they might still be aiming there for 'Lion' even though they got badly, and deservedly, bitten on the back end as a result of their Titfield arrogance.  So there could well have been some 'moving about' of production orders - just as they did for their (Oxford) 'Terrier' in their bid to beat Rails to market which delayed other things.

 

But - as others have said - they will already have spent a large amount of money on the 78XXX development and they really need to try to get that back as quickly as possible (which they obviously aren't).

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

 

Well I was thinking that it could be that they are prioritising other stuff that is doing better on presale? Yes they will end up making them, and yes they will want to recoup their investment, but they may also be thinking that stuff that is selling quickly on pre order is the fastest way to turn the cash around.

 

Not saying these haven't sold well or anything, it is pure speculation.

 

only 5 more days to get those purple Bulleids out for “August” delivery… gosh wasnt the Jubilee a long time ago.

 

Yet again, its Available to pre- order once more, am I surprised ?

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by adb968008

[HExpressD]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Gathering a few dozen/hundreds people in a factory floor to make, paint and assemble everything during covid is very hard, especially when China is still locking down as hard as we were in 2020, 2 years later.

 

Considering were heading towards a recession, if not crash, a few delays may not be the worst thing for collectors.

 

I think this is the crux of the issue, I'm very grateful that I can go and visit my grandparents etc again as Covid is pretty much a distant memory now and it's all too easy to forget that this may not or is not the case the world over. From what I understand China is still riddled with it. 

[TomScrut]

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

To be fair on Hornby, loads of stuff is falling into the “years late” category.

The class 59 painted samples were at Warley in 2018.

 

Yes, the only people who could be argued to be not years late on anything are Bachmann because of how they announce stuff. The stuff that disappeared from the catalogue may have been in progress for years but I aren't sure they ever had dates tagged to them.

 

I have had Hornby, Accurascale and Revolution orders that are more than 12 months behind where they said they would be at announcement/when I ordered.

 

That's not a criticism before people jump to their defence, I know they have had a hard time. It is however, a fact, and as you said, it's not just Hornby.

 

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Yet again, its Available to pre- order once more, am I surprised ?

 

Well I cancelled mine a few weeks ago and it got snapped up more or less straight away. I decided I had too much stuff on the way so binned it off.