Triang 0-4-0 and 4W motor bogie - improving running

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Budd bogie frame was unique to that model. The actual design was used to make the Hymek bogies though.

 

I suspect that the unpowered railcar used two of the plastic trailing bogies, so unfortunately it may well not be a matter of sourcing the parts to motorise one of the bogies. A bogie frame would be required. 

 

It is also possible, I haven’t seen one, that the unpowered railcar used a different chassis, to take two of the plastic bogies?
 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo

[Dzine]

1 hour ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The Budd bogie frame was unique to that model. The actual design was used to make the Hymek bogies though.

 

I suspect that the unpowered railcar used two of the plastic trailing bogies, so unfortunately it may well not be a matter of sourcing the parts to motorise one of the bogies. A bogie frame would be required. 

 

It is also possible, I haven’t seen one, that the unpowered railcar used a different chassis, to take two of the plastic bogies?
 

 

 

Hi there, so in theory it might be possible to cannibalise a Hymek motor and wheel sets (having discarded the frame) and mount it inside one of the plastic Budd bogies (acting as a cosmetic finish), recognising the whole thing might need a mounting of some kind. Regards Paul

[Titan]

16 minutes ago, Dzine said:

Hi there, so in theory it might be possible to cannibalise a Hymek motor and wheel sets (having discarded the frame) and mount it inside one of the plastic Budd bogies (acting as a cosmetic finish), recognising the whole thing might need a mounting of some kind. Regards Paul

 

The bogie frame is an integral part of the motor, and cannot be discarded as it is the only thing that holds the motor components together.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

It may just be possible to replace the sides of a Hymek  bogie with the plastic sides from the Budd railcar. But it would be a bit of a job…

 

Then there is the moulding representing the steps and pilot, that would need fitting to the Hymek bogie…displacing the coupling…

 

Possibly not impossible?

 

 

[Dzine]

Thanks Rufnut and Titan, Just coming at it from a different angle, the R159 double ended diesel loco and R55 single ended loco have a similar high top bogie mounting. I suppose my question is do you know wheel centre dimension  on these and how it compares with the Budd, though from catalogue images I suspect there might be some difference.  Sorry to put you to more trouble and please say if it becomes a burden.  Kind regards Paul.

 

PS My dilemma is, I've been offered an unpowered version in excellent condition for £30 and also have been looking at a brand new still sealed in box powered version for £125 ( from a very reputable seller I regularly deal with).

[Ruffnut Thorston]

To the best of my knowledge, the unpowered version of the Budd Railcar is less common than the powered ones…I haven’t even seen one yet! 

 

The wheel diameter is larger on the R.55, etc. TC Earlier Motor Bogies (EMB). I think that the overall height is too much too.

 

 

Smaller wheels were used on the EMB used for the DMU and Blue Pullman (the same) and the SR EMU, which has different details.

 

 

The EMB bogie mounting is also different, using a screw through a hole in the chassis. The Railcar type, LMB, Later Motor Bogie, with the plastic “Top Hat” uses a metal plate that slides around a special nut on the top of the bogie…

[crackedmember]

Not sure about the unpowered BUDD, but for the unpowered Double ended Diesel.

 

There is a clip in mount with bogie attached which replaces the power bogie.  It is otherwise identical to the powered version.   Does the unpowered BUDD use something similar.

 

The Triang BUDD was actually a better model than the Athern version of the time,  which was shorter and used a rubber band drive system.

 

Regards Clive Burdikin

 

 

 

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Yes the Double Ended Diesel (& Electric) locos use a clip in inset carrying the unpowered bogie. The unpowered DE locos having two such sections.

 

The DMU, and SR EMU unpowered cars also have clip in sections…

 

I also don’t know about the unpowered Budd chassis, whether it is similar.

 

 

The unpowered R.55 type TC A Unit Diesel locos, R. 57, and the B Unit, R.58, use a flat metal chassis, with both unpowered bogies riveted in place.

The same flat chassis was used on the unpowered versions of the TC Road Switcher too.

[Il Grifone]

Was the Tri-ang Budd Railcar actually H0 scale? The scale of the TC range was all over the place. I would imagine there was a common body with a clip in section for the dummy bogie. It was standard Tri-ang practice (only one moulding needed).

The Athearn units have a rather dodgy belt drive to all four axles, though it does work OK with good belts. They are rather short however. I believe the real units were 85 foot long or thereabouts?

I have two (mail car (powered) and passenger car (dummy)) acquired for a very Grifone friendly price! 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Yes, most likely that the body is the same moulding.

 

But I did have a suspicion that the chassis may be different, just a flat chassis with two plastic bogies, rather than the motorised chassis with a clip in section.

 

So, I finally got to having a look…

 

Thankfully, these eBay sellers have taken photos shewing the underside of unpowered Railcars…

 

There IS a clip in section! 
 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294513706425?hash=item44926285b9:g:ssYAAOSwrghhgHBS

With “Horn Hook” Coupling.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303987971387?hash=item46c718553b:g:pOIAAOSwGWpglAwR

 

Powered versions.

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265134951850?hash=item3dbb464daa:g:p6EAAOSwnRBggwSj

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265005556974?hash=item3db38fe4ee:g:R7MAAOSwjO1f94uO

 

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Ruffnut Thorston
Research answered my question!

[railroadbill]

On 13/01/2022 at 21:46, Il Grifone said:

Was the Tri-ang Budd Railcar actually H0 scale? The scale of the TC range was all over the place. I would imagine there was a common body with a clip in section for the dummy bogie. It was standard Tri-ang practice (only one moulding needed).

The Athearn units have a rather dodgy belt drive to all four axles, though it does work OK with good belts. They are rather short however. I believe the real units were 85 foot long or thereabouts?

I have two (mail car (powered) and passenger car (dummy)) acquired for a very Grifone friendly price! 

 

 

The Athern RDCs are indeed too short. The CP Rail one under it is a LifeLike Proto 1000 and is scale length. That one came second hand via E-bay from the US when it was simpler to buy items from outside the UK. Nice model, heavy and runs well.

It took a long time to find the Athern one, (in the days before internet shopping). Got it from Victors who told me they were only produced in occasional short runs.

 

Bonus picture of Australian RDC  (some were built in Australia, some built by Budd and imported), this one is in  the SAR museum in Adelaide.

 

 

Instead of the rubber band drive, I fitted it with a geared bogie drive that came as a kit especially for the RDC.  It runs ok, but the rather crude wheels make it a bit clunky and noisy when it's going along. 

 

 

The Athearn RDC's are 10.5" long which is about  73 foot in HO. The Life Like model is 12 1/4" equivalent  to the prototype  85 feet.

Edited January 16, 2022 by railroadbill

[railroadbill]

Re the R253 dock shunter  (and also the motor bogie used on the double ended transcontinental diesel etc). I've read through this very interesting thread, especially about replacement wheels.  Was there a point when the shunter was fitted with "normal" wheels rather than knurled ones?  Seen a few on e-bay, but the ones I've looked at  seem to have the knurled wheels.

[Barclay]

Yes - mine had smooth wheels,  but I don't know when the change happened. Here's a picture of it with one original wheelset and one Ultrascale.

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Barclay

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Without looking it up, I would believe that the smooth wheel versions came in in the 1970s, probably under Hornby Railways branding.

 

The very last Dock Shunters had the buffer beams retooled to take the newer type of buffers. The buffer stocks being moulded into the buffer beam, with separate heads on rods inserted.

 

I think that the smooth wheels were first introduced on the Transcontinental (TC) series models made for export.

Probably those in real liveries, CN, CP, etc…

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo

[halfwit]

Oddly enough Dock Shunter wheels and buffers were on my mind recently, I came home from a local toy fair last weekend with one that has the later buffers (stocks moulded onto the buffer beam and separate heads as described above) and knurled wheels. Black body with the number 3. I can only assume that the body and chassis are from two different models, or that wheels were swapped at some stage. My original model, from the early seventies has the older style buffers and smooth wheels.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Most probably a whole chassis swap.

 

Possibly with a Bo Bo Transcontinental Series loco.

 

it’s not all that difficult.

 

I think that the very last Dock Shunters were assembled without the oil felt pads around the bearings, like the last X.04 and the New Type X.03 motors.

 

If so, that may help to identify the chassis?

[halfwit]

The top mounting bracket above the magnet is correct for a DS, having the shelf for the lamp housing (the thread type also differs between DS and TC mounting brackets). However, that part could easily have been changed. The pick-ups are of the early flat brass type rather than wire, as per the 1960 and older service sheets that you kindly posted before. There's possibly an age gap of up to 17 years between body and chassis.

It will probably be re-wheeled at some stage, in line with the rest of my DSs (apart from my original childhood loco, which can stay as is).

[Il Grifone]

It's probably an ASP (all spare parts - aka Bitza - bits of this and that*) like my three! (black, red and yellow TC). Only one has the proper weight with the head light....

 

* I realise this is probably not new inforamation!

[Il Grifone]

Edited January 23, 2022 by Il Grifone
double posting!

[kevinlms]

On 21/01/2022 at 07:15, Ruffnut Thorston said:

Without looking it up, I would believe that the smooth wheel versions came in in the 1970s, probably under Hornby Railways branding.

 

The very last Dock Shunters had the buffer beams retooled to take the newer type of buffers. The buffer stocks being moulded into the buffer beam, with separate heads on rods inserted.

 

I think that the smooth wheels were first introduced on the Transcontinental (TC) series models made for export.

Probably those in real liveries, CN, CP, etc…

 

 

Did they go for smooth wheels once their supply of battleship armour dried up?

 

Seriously, it would have been the introduction of Magnahesion that made the knurled wheels unnecessary.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Magnahesion (TM) came in in 1961.

 

 

[Bassettblowke]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest with a view to recommissioning my childhood Blue Pullman set, I am surprised it took so long for Magnadhesion to rear its head. Back in the early 60’s this train set arrived one Xmas  and I loved it, over time the super 4 track needed cleaning and in my naivety I used wire wool this resulted (obviously) in a set of very woolly wheels. Using a more powerful magnet the wire wool was successfully removed, and much to my relief no damage seemed to have been done, indeed it still runs today. However I am not happy about the rutted cartwheels it’s fitted with and a replacement motor bogie has been ordered. 
Magnadhesion was of no use on nickel silver track and I presume this is why it fell out of use, if my grey cells are functioning correctly Lionel also used it  theirs being called Magne-traction,  how long for I’ve no idea but interesting to see it get a mention.

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Bassettblowke
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[DCB]

On 24/01/2022 at 00:07, kevinlms said:

Did they go for smooth wheels once their supply of battleship armour dried up?

 

Seriously, it would have been the introduction of Magnahesion that made the knurled wheels unnecessary.

The TC/ Dock shunter knurled wheel chassis has much larger wheels than the Hymek magnadhesion chassis and never had magdadhesion magnets fitted, basically it was incompatible.   There seem to be a variety of small wheeled non magnadhesion chassis for EMU  DMU and Blue Pullman as well as the plastic axle magnadhesion Hymek and Co Co chassis.  They seem to take a variety of armatures, basically the same as the X04 with a longer spindle and the commutator turned 90 degrees, but I bung any old thing in,  K's 5 Mk1 and 2    5 pole armatures shortened to suit being  my favourites.  The 3 pole armature can be shortened and used in Scalextric power sleds.

The Romford gear sets can be fitted to the TC  ( and X04 Nellie chassis)  if you use Romford wheels and a 60:1 geared 5 pole motor version is an impressive performer,  even with standard wheels but with 5 pole motor and TT single start worms these run very nicely. Shame they look so horrible.   Then again my Dock shunter has a Hornby Dublo class 20 bogie, well it will have when get round to making some outside frames for it.

The 

[Bassettblowke]

Note the description of the wheels as being finely knurled which to be fair by the standards of the day they probably  were. I have some Bassett Lowke O gauge that could be described as having steam roller wheels.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Bassettblowke
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