GER 10T Goods Van announced!

[The Johnster]

The ventilation alteration looks easy enough and I'll probably do it over the next few days. 

 

I didn't get where I am today without being where I was yesterday...

[Kelvin Pinnock]

A suitably distressed van found at the end of the yard at Stratford St. Mary. 

This van, and also the similar banana van, runs happily at the head of a 22-wagon train without

problems and no additional weight.

[Dunsignalling]

Are the vents slightly out of position on the model or did the repair/re-covering of them in plywood just create a new, higher, top edge on the prototype van(s) so treated?

 

The top edges on mine seem to match the drawing in my copy of Tatlow (the original single volume, rather than the newer series of books).

 

John

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[41516]

I think it's definitely a case of observe your prototype, if you are bothered about these things.

 

There should be a capping piece that isn't represented well on the model vents. This brings the top of the vent upwards when you look at the depth of plank above and below (assuming the planking is correct...).  It's there on the drawings in Tatlow, albeit much fainter reproductions on the drawing in the single volume book, compared to Vol1 of the multi-part series.

 

E632438 - page 18 Cheona British Railway Vans No.3

 

Adding a bit of plastic strip on top and shaping probably would also work, although would still leave the bottom of the vents level with the bottom of the 5th full end plank down rather than part way up.

 

On the other hand: E612630 (screenshotted from the Gaugemaster website)

 

If my earlier speculation is that E612630 a 19'3" D47 van, it could be a minor difference between diagrams (or builders, or repairs/replacements over time)

 

Again, I'm thinking the model has a roof arc that is too flat - comparing to the drawings, it seem to be just a touch too low in the middle which is throwing out the whole arc.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by 41516

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, 41516 said:

I think it's definitely a case of observe your prototype, if you are bothered about these things.

 

There should be a capping piece that isn't represented well on the model vents. This brings the top of the vent upwards when you look at the depth of plank above and below (assuming the planking is correct...).  It's there on the drawings in Tatlow, albeit much fainter reproductions on the drawing in the single volume book, compared to Vol1 of the multi-part series.

 

E632438 - page 18 Cheona British Railway Vans No.3

 

Adding a bit of plastic strip on top and shaping probably would also work, although would still leave the bottom of the vents level with the bottom of the 5th full end plank down rather than part way up.

 

On the other hand: E612630 (screenshotted from the Gaugemaster website)

 

If my earlier speculation is that E612630 a 19'3" D47 van, it could be a minor difference between diagrams (or builders, or repairs/replacements over time)

 

Again, I'm thinking the model has a roof arc that is too flat - comparing to the drawings, it seem to be just a touch too low in the middle which is throwing out the whole arc.

 

Interestingly, the roof arcs in those two pictures don't appear to tally. The curve of the top one definitely looks flatter than the other one. I see what you mean about the metal capping, though.

 

I'll probably get round to working up and renumbering mine eventually, but I'll not touch it until I decide on a photograph to follow. Or, better, find a picture of a van that matches the model so I don't have to....😀. 

 

These vans would have been pretty uncommon on "my" patch (BR, Southern Region in the West of England) and have therefore only bought one of them "for variety" (I doubt I am alone in that!). Consequently, It won't be a Herculean task whatever I decide is necessary.

 

 John

Edited April 9, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[41516]

A single picture with one being shunted c1957 put this into the 'ah go on then' list. And somehow I've ended up with two and wouldn't mind doing a fitted one as well!

 

No further investigation on roof arcs today, as I've got the basic block painting of E632313 done.   Given the date of the source photo (1952\), it probably should still be in LNER grey, so going to sleep on if I've gone a bit too light with the mix, or if weathering washes will tone/darken things down.

 

 

Edit - I was going to change the axlebox covers, wasn't I?

Edited April 9, 2022 by 41516

[41516]

Nearly there. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by 41516
picture edit

[Atilla]

I came across these photographs of GER van 632802 at Pickering taken in 2019 which shows detail of the ventilator on this particular wagon. I have no idea of the significance of the white painted strip by the side of one of the doors (it is only on the one side of the doors) but it may be a temporary repair as the bolts are new and much longer than any of the original ones. Also, the bottom of the nearest door looks to be in quite poor condition.

[The Johnster]

 It's actually quite hard to be 100% certain of the actual height of the top edge of the ventilators because the plank that you have to align it to is hidden by the corner strapping and end stanchion.  But, if you count full size planks up from the bottom, the bottom edge of the vents are at 7 and a half planks as near as dammit.  The model is wrong in this respect, with the bottom edge of the vents at the top of the 7th full plank up from the bottom, and needs to be moved half a plank upwards.  Job for tomorrow, but thanks for the photos, Mr The Hun, sir, the matter is now fully cleared up as far as I'm concerned...

[The Johnster]

Sorted the vents on mine last night, simple enough job.  Used an Exacto to prise them off and cut the location spigots off, and glued 'em back on a half-plank further up. Doesn't make a huge difference to the appearance of the van, but with a job as easy as this it's worth doing just to know that your van's vents are in the correct place!

 

Pity Oxford couldn't have done this in the first place, of course, but it wouldn't be Oxford if they got everything right on a model, would it.  It's still a lovely little thing, great value for money, and full of character, and I'm glad I bought mine!  A BR grey liveried pre-grouping van is very evocative of the early 1950s.

[Gilbert]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Sorted the vents on mine last night, simple enough job.  Used an Exacto to prise them off and cut the location spigots off, and glued 'em back on a half-plank further up. Doesn't make a huge difference to the appearance of the van, but with a job as easy as this it's worth doing just to know that your van's vents are in the correct place!

 

Pity Oxford couldn't have done this in the first place, of course, but it wouldn't be Oxford if they got everything right on a model, would it.  It's still a lovely little thing, great value for money, and full of character, and I'm glad I bought mine!  A BR grey liveried pre-grouping van is very evocative of the early 1950s.

Maybe its the "deliberate mistake"....

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Gilbert said:

Maybe its the "deliberate mistake"....

You mean to say that the duplicated Morton brake cam was an accident ??!?

[Dunsignalling]

On 04/05/2022 at 00:19, The Johnster said:

Sorted the vents on mine last night, simple enough job.  Used an Exacto to prise them off and cut the location spigots off, and glued 'em back on a half-plank further up. Doesn't make a huge difference to the appearance of the van, but with a job as easy as this it's worth doing just to know that your van's vents are in the correct place!

 

Pity Oxford couldn't have done this in the first place, of course, but it wouldn't be Oxford if they got everything right on a model, would it.  It's still a lovely little thing, great value for money, and full of character, and I'm glad I bought mine!  A BR grey liveried pre-grouping van is very evocative of the early 1950s.

Moved the vents on mine today, bottom edges raised to line up with the rivets on the corner plates.

 

It was a bit more of a faff than I expected, as I needed to carve away some of the X-bracing to allow the vents to sit properly. It does look better, though; once you know, it niggles!

 

I'm leaving the brake gear alone until I decide how far I want to go with it.

 

John

 

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

It does look better, though; once you know, it niggles!

 

 

Exactly; I'd have left mine alone in blissful ignorance if I hadn't found out about the discrepancy on this very thread.  I reckon it makes a noticeable differance to the proportions of the van once you've done it, though, and it's a pretty distinctive vehicle to start with!

[BenL]

In an attempt to work out what I need to do on the brakes of my LNER version of this Oxford van, I popped into the NRM York yesterday to have a look at the relevant volume of Tatlow (Vol 1) and left more confused than when I went in!

 

There are two good shots of the unfitted version of this van in Tatlow but to my surprise they both appeared to have two sets of brake shoes on the side shown, in contrast to the one set on the model. You can see one of these shots at the bottom of this page:

https://wildswanbooks.co.uk/Books/LNER-Wagons1.htm
 

And here is a photo from the HMRS archive appearing to show two sets of brake shoes on both sides:

https://hmrs.org.uk/abh811-12t-fruit-van-lne-612402-xge-unidloc-c-1936-in-train-board-attached-says-fruit-only-return-empty-t.html
 

I also notice that LNER wagon expert @jwealleans has fitted two pairs of brake shoes on his D&S kit built version of this van:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/150978-ger-10t-goods-van-announced/?do=findComment&comment=3813566

 

But obviously some of these vans did have a single brake shoe on each side as modelled by Oxford given shots of them in GE and BR days, such as this one that accompanied the Oxford release:

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/vehicledetails?id=3143065
 

Was the fitting of two brake shoes on one or both sides a later modification on some of these vans? Or were some built like this? 
 

Could the difference relate to the different diagrams - 47 for the 19’3’’ length version and 72 for the 19’ version? The Hattons link above suggests Oxford thought they had produced a 72 but the number of the LNER version is for a 47 if I’ve understood the information in Tatlow correctly. If I remember correctly a RMWebber measured the model as coming out at a scale 19’3’’, again suggesting it’s a 47.

 

So in short, I’m now unsure if I just need to modify the brake lever on one side as others on this thread have done, or add another set of brake shoes on one or both sides. Any pointers anyone has will be greatly appreciated! 

Edited May 22, 2022 by BenL

[Cwmtwrch]

Both vans in HMRS ABH811 have either side brake - the brake shoes are clearly not the same way round on both sides, and the single vertical post on each side in place of an inside V is also clearly visible, at least on the LH one [the other has the HMRS logo just where you don't want it, but the push rods are fairly clear]. 631758 in LNER Wagons V1 appears to be another example of this arrangement - the silhouetted set visible through the underframe is difficult to disentangle, as it seems to include part of the brakes on a vehicle behind, but the vertical post on the nearside is visible.

 

Tatlow "An Illustrated History of LNER Wagons" p30 has 630616 in LNER livery with no visible brake shoes and a plain lever on the nearer side, implying two shoe Morton with both push rods on the far side next to the clutch, which was standard for this arrangement.

 

I have only looked at a very small sample [14 wagons, including ABH811], but have so far identified 8-shoe clasp VB, 4-shoe either side, and two varieties of 2-shoe Morton, but no 4-shoe Morton, which does not prove that it didn't exist.

[Dunsignalling]

4-shoe unfitted Morton brakes were extremely uncommon and I wouldn't represent them on a model without cast-iron photographic evidence.

 

The unfitted GE vans carried two varieties of 2-shoe, one with a shoe on the left looking from either side as per the Oxford model and the other conventionally with both on the clutch side. Photo of the latter in the Cheona LNER wagon album.

 

The only fitted ones I've found pics of seem to have the 8-shoe clasp set-up as represented on the Oxford Banana van. The unfitted vans were probably too old and non-standard to have AVB added by BR which was the usual route to 4-shoe Morton.

 

John

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[BenL]

39 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Both vans in HMRS ABH811 have either side brake - the brake shoes are clearly not the same way round on both sides, and the single vertical post on each side in place of an inside V is also clearly visible, at least on the LH one [the other has the HMRS logo just where you don't want it, but the push rods are fairly clear]. 631758 in LNER Wagons V1 appears to be another example of this arrangement - the silhouetted set visible through the underframe is difficult to disentangle, as it seems to include part of the brakes on a vehicle behind, but the vertical post on the nearside is visible.

 

Tatlow "An Illustrated History of LNER Wagons" p30 has 630616 in LNER livery with no visible brake shoes and a plain lever on the nearer side, implying two shoe Morton with both push rods on the far side next to the clutch, which was standard for this arrangement.

 

I have only looked at a very small sample [14 wagons, including ABH811], but have so far identified 8-shoe clasp VB, 4-shoe either side, and two varieties of 2-shoe Morton, but no 4-shoe Morton, which does not prove that it didn't exist.

Thanks very much for this Cwmtwrch, if I’ve understood correctly, I should have called what I’m seeing in the HMRS photo ‘4-shoe either side brakes’, and this means two shoes per side? 
 

I certainly didn’t mean to suggest 4 shoe Morton, in fact I didn’t mention Morton, but apologies for giving the impression that I might have meant that! 
 

So the point still stands that at least some of these vans might have had 2 brake shoes per side?

[BenL]

43 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

4-shoe unfitted Morton brakes were extremely uncommon and I wouldn't represent them on a model without cast-iron photographic evidence.

 

The unfitted GE vans carried two varieties of 2-shoe, one with a shoe on the left looking from either side as per the Oxford model and the other conventionally with both on the clutch side. Photo of the latter in the Cheona LNER wagon album.

 

Thanks very much for this John.

 

As I mentioned in reply to Cwmtwrch, I didn’t mean to suggest it was 4 shoe Morton brakes I thought I was seeing. If I’ve understood Cwmtwrch correctly, it sounds like what I think I’m seeing should be described as ‘4 shoe either side brakes’. Do you agree that’s what the HMRS photo suggests and does this represent a third variety of brakes on top of the two you mention?

Edited May 22, 2022 by BenL

[BenL]

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Tatlow "An Illustrated History of LNER Wagons" p30 has 630616 in LNER livery with no visible brake shoes and a plain lever on the nearer side, implying two shoe Morton with both push rods on the far side next to the clutch, which was standard for this arrangement.

That’s very interesting Cwmtwrch, especially as it’s the wagon Oxford have modelled for their NE version. It sounds like it pretty conclusively suggests that Oxford Rail have got the brakes wrong on this particular version - instead of a single shoe each side, it should be a standard Morton two shoe arrangement, ie two shoes on the cam side and none on the other.

 

I’d like to have a look at this picture myself - is this the book it’s in?

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/first-edition/LNER-Wagons-Illustrated-Overview-Tatlow-Peter/15772958939/bd

Edited May 22, 2022 by BenL

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, BenL said:

That’s very interesting Cwmtwrch, especially as it’s the wagon Oxford have modelled for their NE version. It sounds like it pretty conclusively suggests that Oxford Rail have got the brakes wrong on this particular version - instead of a single shoe each side, it should be a standard Morton two shoe arrangement, ie two shoes on the cam side and none on the other.

 

I’d like to have a look at this picture myself - is this the book it’s in?

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/first-edition/LNER-Wagons-Illustrated-Overview-Tatlow-Peter/15772958939/bd

Both are correct for different batches of these vans. The bit Oxford has got wrong is that they have put a Morton clutch on either side!

 

Drawing in the book mentioned show the "one per side" version of 2-shoe Morton. A photo shows the unbraked non-clutch side of a van with the conventional set-up. Photos of "one per side" vans exist in other books.

 

A third shows a fitted Ventilated van with similar 8-shoe brakes to the Oxford Banana van. In that case they have committed the opposite sin by not having fitted any clutches, though.

 

John

 

Edit: I have no intention of entering the debate over whether the brake differences were applied specifically to 19' or 19'3" vans. I can't spot the difference from photographs! The Oxford model measures up at a scale 19' FWIW.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, BenL said:

I should have called what I’m seeing in the HMRS photo ‘4-shoe either side brakes’, and this means two shoes per side?

Yes, there is no cross shaft linking the two sides with this arrangement. Also called 'Trader brake' by the SR.

49 minutes ago, BenL said:

I’d like to have a look at this picture myself - is this the book it’s in?

I think this may be a revision of the OPC book, but don't have it, so can't confirm this. I have the original OPC book https://www.abebooks.co.uk/products/isbn/9780902888920?cm_sp=bdp-_-ISBN13-_-PLP. I don't use it very often now; being a BR modeller I mostly use LNER Wagons 4A & 4B.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Yes, there is no cross shaft linking the two sides with this arrangement. Also called 'Trader brake' by the SR.

I think this may be a revision of the OPC book, but don't have it, so can't confirm this. I have the original OPC book https://www.abebooks.co.uk/products/isbn/9780902888920?cm_sp=bdp-_-ISBN13-_-PLP. I don't use it very often now; being a BR modeller I mostly use LNER Wagons 4A & 4B.

Yes it is a straight reprint of the original single-volume OPC edition.

 

I, unfortunately, don't have the newer multi-volume work by the same author.

[markw]

There are Photos of all three types of brakes on Paul Bartlett's site.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnercoveredmerchandise

[Dunsignalling]

To summarise, photographs indicate that both types of 2-shoe Morton handbrake were fitted to vans of this type. Some others had 4-shoe independent either-side brakes (aka "Trader" or "Freighter" brake).

 

It is possible that the brake types tallied with variation in overall length but as the difference was only 3" it's very difficult to identify which is which from photos!

 

Only thing that Oxford has definitely got wrong (on both their models) is the absence/surplus of Morton clutches on the brake levers, and the use of a RCH style lever rack (possibly a later modification?) whereas the GER fitted a rather odd design of their own.

 

John

Edited May 22, 2022 by Dunsignalling