HS2

[62613]

3 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Empty homes should be heavily taxed, enough to make sure keeping them empty is not worthwhile, it's not rocket science!

Depends. Mum  died in 2018; it took until February the following year (from late July) to complete probate, and it was another 6 months before it was sold. Similar to a couple of the houses on my street, which have recently gone the same way. But yes, if it can be reasonably deduced that a dwelling is deliberately being left empty, its owner should be severely financially punished

[KingEdwardII]

6 hours ago, APOLLO said:

End of HS2 Birmingham 2040 ???

Well that looks pretty swish - electric red lights, plus overhead cables. What more could you want??

 

You want to get to Manchester?? No, no-one wants to go there, it's in the, the, the North...

[KingEdwardII]

5 hours ago, 62613 said:

its owner should be severely financially punished

I noticed that something of that kind is going to happen to second home owners in Wales - like 100% council tax surcharge. It was being reported in the news today...

[Ron Ron Ron]

9 hours ago, 62613 said:

…….But yes, if it can be reasonably deduced that a dwelling is deliberately being left empty, its owner should be severely financially punished

I find this attitude extremely disturbing.

What right have you to judge or determine what someone does with regard to the occupation of their own property?

 

There are also various good reasons why property may be kept empty.

Just one example.

A few years ago, a former nearby neighbour of ours accepted a company posting to their new operation in the Far East.

After the first year, his contract was extended to 5 years, so his wife and children moved out to join him and they decided to rent their home out, whilst they were out of the country and to cover the mortgage payments.

 

The first tenants consisted of 3 young professionals, who were model tenants and caused no issues with the neighbours.

However, they moved on after 2 years and were replaced by a right scumbag family of 4..

After repeatedly defaulting on rental payments and failing to keep the property in good order, the letting agents has to resort to legal means to remove them.  Thankfully it didn’t take long as the family just left without notice.

Unfortunately, this family had basically trashed the house, leaving it a filthy state, with various bits of damage.

 

The property couldn’t be re-let without substantial repairs and redecoration.

The owners returned home on a period of leave and having accessed the state of their home, decided that as they would be returning back to the UK in only two or three years time, they would not only put things right, but also go ahead and carry out the improvements to the house that they had planned to make on their return.

Over the next few months, the house was half gutted, with internal building work done, a new kitchen extension added, new fitted kitchen and bathrooms, new internal doors and woodwork, a conservatory built, full internal redecoration and new carpets and flooring, plus a new central heating system installed, as well as a new garage built.

It must have cost a fortune, so it was no surprise to hear that they decided to not rent the house out again, but keep it vacant until they returned home for good. 
Her mum lived nearby and checked on the place regularly and cleaned. His brother occasionally stayed there on some weekends and kept the garden straight and in good order.

 

That house ended up being unoccupied for over 5 years, before the family eventually returned.

It was their family home, on which they’d spent a lot of money, getting it as they wanted and it was their choice and their right to deliberately keep it empty.

Who has the right to say that someone in their position should be taxed or “severely financially  punished”, or even be under the threat of appropriation or confiscation of their family home, because they chose not to rent it out or allow people to live there?

 

 

.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[rockershovel]

I'm afraid that lengthy periods of rumour and counter-rumour, combined with lack of useful preparation and consequent delay and possible cancellation seem to be the standard for rail projects in this country. 

 

The Victorians had the great advantage of knowing their market. The purpose of the great railway building phase of the 19th century was to serve existing, profitable industries, which would pay good money for transport in the expectation that greater profits would result. They already had the precedent of the great industrial transformation of the Midlands and North, entirely self-driven with no government policy at all. 

 

They did have the problem of over-optimistic speculation, but that was self-governing in that once the first madness passed, people learnt quite quickly not to repeat the exercise and some quite valuable lessons were learnt and implemented, the Victorians being above all a people who DID THINGS. 

[KingEdwardII]

5 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Who has the right to say that someone in their position should be taxed or “severely financially  punished”,

One thing to point out is that under current regulations, an empty home can claim relief from council tax. Once upon a time, second homes were also treated in this way. Second homes no longer have this relief and it is reasonable to consider whether empty homes should also lose this relief, certainly if left unoccupied for more than some length of time (6 months or 1 year perhaps), with the period set up to deal with the case of "empty due to death".

 

I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to impose a penalty of 100% extra council tax for an empty home, but that is exactly what is on the cards for second homes in Wales. So there are precedents.

 

Meanwhile, I wonder how long before applications for whole new towns will be made along the line of HS2? That area north west of Aylesbury looks tempting. Toss in some Javelin-like commuter trains and a connection or two to the local snail rail lines and voila! Perhaps kill two birds with one stone and place the new town on both HS2 & East/West rail.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[corneliuslundie]

True of railways built in industrial areas, but the four constituent companies of the Cambrian Railways, for example, were all promoted by local people who hoped they would help the area (and hopefully their estates), not to serve industry as there was none worth speaking about other than some quarries.

They didn't make fortunes, and the Cambrian was in receivership at times.

I am sure other rural parts of the country could tell the same story.

And on empty houses, the house next but one to us was empty for several years because the son of the deceased owner could not face up to dealing with it. Ours was empty for four years because the owner was in a nursing home. It then took some time to sell (we bought it at auction). I don't have any problem with those two examples. But near us at the end of a cul-de-sac is a house which has been empty for some years, windows are broken and the garden has been used a a dumping ground. I suspect that rats have taken up residence (they did next door but one). It is presumably owned by someone who has either forgotten about it or doesn't care as it is deteriorating. It is a pretty modern building. That is the kind of example where action is needed. But not really the topic of the thread. 

And to my mind the Welsh government is lumping together second homes with holiday lets, which are completely different as often purpose built. But again off topic.

I can't see any new industry coming to the north as a result of building new railways, at least not the kind of industry which would make much use of rail for freight.

Jonathan

[62613]

6 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I find this attitude extremely disturbing.

What right have you to judge or determine what someone does with regard to the occupation of their own property?

 

There are also various good reasons why property may be kept empty.

Just one example.

A few years ago, a former nearby neighbour of ours accepted a company posting to their new operation in the Far East.

After the first year, his contract was extended to 5 years, so his wife and children moved out to join him and they decided to rent their home out, whilst they were out of the country and to cover the mortgage payments.

 

The first tenants consisted of 3 young professionals, who were model tenants and caused no issues with the neighbours.

However, they moved on after 2 years and were replaced by a right scumbag family of 4..

After repeatedly defaulting on rental payments and failing to keep the property in good order, the letting agents has to resort to legal means to remove them.  Thankfully it didn’t take long as the family just left without notice.

Unfortunately, this family had basically trashed the house, leaving it a filthy state, with various bits of damage.

 

The property couldn’t be re-let without substantial repairs and redecoration.

The owners returned home on a period of leave and having accessed the state of their home, decided that as they would be returning back to the UK in only two or three years time, they would not only put things right, but also go ahead and carry out the improvements to the house that they had planned to make on their return.

Over the next few months, the house was half gutted, with internal building work done, a new kitchen extension added, new fitted kitchen and bathrooms, new internal doors and woodwork, a conservatory built, full internal redecoration and new carpets and flooring, plus a new central heating system installed, as well as a new garage built.

It must have cost a fortune, so it was no surprise to hear that they decided to not rent the house out again, but keep it vacant until they returned home for good. 
Her mum lived nearby and checked on the place regularly and cleaned. His brother occasionally stayed there on some weekends and kept the garden straight and in good order.

 

That house ended up being unoccupied for over 5 years, before the family eventually returned.

It was their family home, on which they’d spent a lot of money, getting it as they wanted and it was their choice and their right to deliberately keep it empty.

Who has the right to say that someone in their position should be taxed or “severely financially  punished”, or even be under the threat of appropriation or confiscation of their family home, because they chose not to rent it out or allow people to live there?

 

 

.

 

Thats not what I said! Read the last bit again; I was talking about a dwelling bought as a speculation, or as a hedge aginst taxation, or with the rumoured proceeds of money allegedly gained by corrupt financial dealings. Certain parts of London are allegedly rife with this. 

 

[APOLLO]

£98 Billion to be spent on railways one week, Yippee !!

 

Peppa Pig, Brrrrooomm, Brrrrooomm the next !!!!!!

 

Does anyone thing the North will get ANYTHING in the sad, sad years to come ? I will believe it when I can ride on it.

 

Empty houses ? - Soon to be conscripted for - well, you know who.

 

Glad I'm retired, I worry for all our children and those that have grandchildren.

 

Brit15

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

……..I wonder how long before applications for whole new towns will be made along the line of HS2? That area north west of Aylesbury looks tempting. Toss in some Javelin-like commuter trains and a connection or two to the local snail rail lines and voila! Perhaps kill two birds with one stone and place the new town on both HS2 & East/West rail.

 

Well, there are no HS2 stations planned between OOC and Birmingham Interchange, or for the Vale of Aylesbury.

However, that area has long been envisioned and considered suitable for large scale development.

The area between Bicester and MK is expected to absorb over a million new residents before 2050.

 

With the population continuing to grow at the equivalent of adding the population of a town like Leicester or Stoke-on-Tent, each and every year, there will be a constant demand for new housing, particularly in the SE of England.

That’s why central government are basically forcing local authorities across the SE, to release development land for housing.

Sadly, brownfield sites will not be enough to accommodate this growth.

 

 

.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

 

Meanwhile, I wonder how long before applications for whole new towns will be made along the line of HS2? That area north west of Aylesbury looks tempting. Toss in some Javelin-like commuter trains and a connection or two to the local snail rail lines and voila! Perhaps kill two birds with one stone and place the new town on both HS2 & East/West rail.

 

 

 

Every 'Javalin-like' train you put on HS2 means one (or more) less long distance train to the likes of Manchester etc. Given the howls of protest in certain quarters about the 'betrayal of the north' that won't go down well. Even the abandonment of the Leeds leg doesn't help as rather than a single stop at Toton to serve the east Midlands, separate trains to the likes of Derby and Nottingham are now on the cards.

 

The reasons for Javelin / commuter services on HS1 is precisely that there are no big cities the size of Manchester etc to serve in Kent, plus the demand for international travel is much less so there is plenty of train paths going spare.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

The reasons for Javelin / commuter services on HS1 is precisely that there are no big cities the size of Manchester etc to serve in Kent, plus the demand for international travel is much less so there is plenty of train paths going spare.

I guess it was also to gain favour from the voters in Kent who had a whopping high speed line driven through the county that had no direct benefit to them, it didn't even remove the large numbers of lorries that pass through on the way to Dover.

[62613]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Well, there are no HS2 stations planned between OOC and Birmingham Interchange, or for the Vale of Aylesbury.

However, that area has long been envisioned and considered suitable for large scale development.

The area between Bicester and MK is expected to absorb over a million new residents before 2050.

 

With the population continuing to grow at the equivalent of adding the population of a town like Leicester or Stoke-on-Tent, each and every year, there will be a constant demand for new housing, particularly in the SE of England.

That’s why central government are basically forcing local authorities across the SE, to release development land for housing.

Sadly, brownfield sites will not be enough to accommodate this growth.

 

 

.

Not just in the SE; everywhere!

 

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry, but if you look at the demographics the population will not be increasing much longer. Birth rates are currently only at about replacement rate and still dropping, and the average life expectancy is no longer increasing. Currently the elderly are the result of the post-war "bulge". With efforts to reduce immigration currently a government obsession that will also cut any long term increase. I think the last figures I saw suggested that population would plateau in about 15 years and then drop.

Several other countries have already reached this point. An extreme is Serbia where the populations has been falling slowly ever since the Second World War.

Much of the demand for more housing is currently caused by smaller households. (Though not as extreme as Germany). But that also cannot continue indefinitely.

So we could find that by the time anyone gets around to building these massive new towns they will only be needed for a couple of decades.

Of course if a one-million population city were built next to HS2 there could be unstoppable pressure for a station on the line.

What such a city might be useful for of course is to house the government when it is flooded out of London!

Jonathan

[lmsforever]

You dont hear demands for a station in the Vale now although Bicester is growing so fast that every time I drive through there are new estates being built.I do wonder just where everyone will be working ,the car factory in Oxford is settled on its workforce and thealternatives are London and Birmingham .At least travel is easy with the M40 and Chiltern  its a quick journey naturaly I would go by train! When HS2 is complete around Aylesbury there will be 13000 houses built alongsie it hope they dont mind train noise !!!

[Ron Ron Ron]

40 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Sorry, but if you look at the demographics the population will not be increasing much longer.....

 

I would caution against trusting the forecasts too closely.

The demographers have a track history of getting most predictions wrong and in some cases, widely wrong.

In the late 1990's, it was forecast that the UK population would grow to 59.9 million by 2025.

We passed that figure almost 20 years ago, with the population currently in the 67 - 68 million ballpark in 2021.

Even though net migration has fallen significantly, after the high growth of the last 10 - 15 years and fertility rates have reduced, there is still an impactful annual increase in the population.

 

The Office for National Statistics recently calculated that the UK population will surpass 69.6 million by mid-2029 and reach 72 million by mid-2041.

However, with much reduced growth, we are already on course to surpass 70 million at an earlier date.

 

Remember, the same people reckoned that following the UK's departure from the EU, that up to around 3 million EU citizens would apply for residency, or a right to stay. 

Over 6 million applied !!!

Even if a lot of those accepted, subsequently didn't take up residence, that's still a prediction that was wildly out.

That's not saying anything against people from other European countries, but it again demonstrates how wrong the government forecasters and demographers often are.

 

.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[phil-b259]

29 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I guess it was also to gain favour from the voters in Kent who had a whopping high speed line driven through the county that had no direct benefit to them, it didn't even remove the large numbers of lorries that pass through on the way to Dover.

 

True, the promise of faster services to west Kent, easier access to Londons Docklands (via Stratford) defiantly softened the pill as it were.

 

However its also true that without them HS1 would have been very much under utilised as the demand for international rail travel (even in the busiest pre Covid era) barely exceeded one train an hour to / from Paris and Brussels.

 

Ultimately the biggest issue with HS1 was Londons physical location being too close to the SE coast which has meant there are no really large cities sitting on the route from London to the tunnel (e.g. like Birmingham happens to sit slap bang in the middle of the route between London and NW England. If there were then you would have had far less trains running onto the domestic network and serving towns and villages scattered through Kent.

 

There also was the lingering problem that the lines through Kent were (1) slow in comparison to the mainlines heading north and west of London and (2) pretty congested in the peaks (particularly in the London area). A new line would get rid of both of these problems far more effectively than any amount of 'upgrades' . Neither Kent domestic passengers woes nor Eurostar warranted a new line in its own right, but by combining both (in recognition that both were down to the same fundamental causes), plus the opportunity for it to boast regeneration around Stratford meant it got the go ahead.

 

By contrast the LGV nord from Paris to Lille and then onwards to Belgium is effectively the same as HS2 between London Birmingham then onwards to Manchester. Both link the Capital with an important regional centre but are actually there to link places much further afield. The LGV nord has a spur to Calais for Eurostar and domestic services to the Calais region - HS2 will have a spur towards the East Midlands for trains to Sheffield and the immediate Derby / Nottingham area.

 

 

 

 

[KingEdwardII]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

barely exceeded one train an hour to / from Paris and Brussels.

That's not my recollection of the pre-Covid days, when I used to travel regularly to both places. During the day, it was typically 1 per hour to Brussels and 2 per hour to Paris. And in those days, they would often be stuffed full.

 

At least HS2 will not have the lengthy security checking process that you get with Eurostar.

 

Yours, Mike.

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

That's not my recollection of the pre-Covid days, when I used to travel regularly to both places. During the day, it was typically 1 per hour to Brussels and 2 per hour to Paris. And in those days, they would often be stuffed full.

 

 

Still not enough to justify HS1 on their own though. Hence the need for domestic services - except Kent lacks big cities the size of Manchester. Hence 'high speed' services serving some pretty small places and the temptation by some to advocate / expect / demand the same with HS2.

[KingEdwardII]

45 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

dont hear demands for a station in the Vale now

I suspect that no locals are going to wish a new town on themselves! The push will come from elsewhere, especially the government looking to meet housing goals.

 

This area is already <1 hour from London by train. The prospect of faster services over HS2 would make it very attractive indeed. Just look at the huge expansion of Didcot, partly underpinned by 45 min services to Paddington and the upcoming direct services to the City and Canary Wharf with the Elizabeth line.

 

Yours, Mike.

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

At least HS2 will not have the lengthy security checking process that you get with Eurostar.

 

 

At the moment!!

 

Wait till it arrives:

• Covid vaccine status
• Northern readiness
• Journey necessaryness
• Trouser searches for whippets and dialect checks as Yorkshire people will not be allowed on the trains in order to be able to later prove there was no need for a line to Sheffield and Leeds

[Pandora]

Euston terminus for HS2

It appears there are potentially expensive civil engineering works required for the tunnels of HS2 into Euston,  three single-track bores and a large cavern below  the existing track structure are proposed through Camden, at least one of the bores will be very close to the retaining wall risking undermining of a structure which has required attention in the past.

 

PDF file attached

HS2EustonCamdenCutting.pdf

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Pandora said:

Euston terminus for HS2

It appears there are potentially expensive civil engineering works required for the tunnels of HS2 into Euston,  three single-track bores and a large cavern below  the existing track structure are proposed through Camden, at least one of the bores will be very close to the retaining wall risking undermining of a structure which has required attention in the past.

 

PDF file attached

HS2EustonCamdenCutting.pdf 6.83 MB · 17 downloads

 

Yup

 

The residents tried to us this in a series of court actions against HS2 and LOST!

 

No engineering task is without risk - but one trusts the financial consequences of getting it wrong will have ensured all necessary precautions will be taken.

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Pandora said:

Euston terminus for HS2

It appears there are potentially expensive civil engineering works required for the tunnels of HS2 into Euston,  three single-track bores and a large cavern below  the existing track structure are proposed through Camden, at least one of the bores will be very close to the retaining wall risking undermining of a structure which has required attention in the past.

 

PDF file attached

HS2EustonCamdenCutting.pdf 6.83 MB · 16 downloads

That's been to the High Court I believe and ben thrown out so e time ago. If I remember correctly the judge made somr very scathing remarks about the quality of the plaintiffs evidence.

 

Jamie

 

PS, Phil got his post up before mine, hence the duplication.

Edited November 24, 2021 by jamie92208

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Pandora said:

Euston terminus for HS2

It appears there are potentially expensive civil engineering works required for the tunnels of HS2 into Euston,  three single-track bores and a large cavern below  the existing track structure are proposed through Camden, at least one of the bores will be very close to the retaining wall risking undermining of a structure which has required attention in the past.

 

PDF file attached

HS2EustonCamdenCutting.pdf 6.83 MB · 15 downloads

I wouldn't take the judgement of a local resident's commitee over top league Civil Engineers too seriously.

 

Far from being a non partisan appraisal, the whole report, especially towards the end is very anti HS2 and throws a fair bit of dirt around and a lot of misinformation.

Edited November 24, 2021 by melmerby