Lower Thames Yard

[The Johnster]

I highly approve of the way you are organising your freight sets, Paul; this sort of 'backstory' thinking adds hugely to the realism and pleasure of operating IMHO.  It illustrates that the trains are not there for fun, they have a purpose, collecting and delivering goods to and from customers, some of whom have specific requirements.  

 

The trade seems intent on not supplying GW opens that are not clay hoods, in the same way that for many years it seemed stuck in a mind frame that any GW non-gangwayed passenger stock = B set, and that Blue Box insist that all panniers have top feeds.  It's irritating, isn't it!

[Tallpaul69]

23 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I highly approve of the way you are organising your freight sets, Paul; this sort of 'backstory' thinking adds hugely to the realism and pleasure of operating IMHO.  It illustrates that the trains are not there for fun, they have a purpose, collecting and delivering goods to and from customers, some of whom have specific requirements.  

 

The trade seems intent on not supplying GW opens that are not clay hoods, in the same way that for many years it seemed stuck in a mind frame that any GW non-gangwayed passenger stock = B set, and that Blue Box insist that all panniers have top feeds.  It's irritating, isn't it!

Thanks The Johnster,

Having as accurate as possible consists in my trains is important to me because the operational side is the aspect of railway modelling that interests me most.

Unlike many, to me the building of the railway is just a means to an end of getting somewhere for my trains to operate.

Possibly because I do not have the necessary skills, (and no practice doesn't make perfect!) l have no enthusiasm for baseboard building, track laying and electrics. I don't want to spend my time sorting out track problems or wiring problems, but I am happy to build scenery, and dress the layout. So that is why  I am getting others to build what will hopefully be my last layout, which has to work well, and which will keep me occupied as long as I want it to.

Unfortunately this has meant that my layout is not progressing, as the lockdown has meant those who were going to build my layout and install it in my railway room cannot for the present do anything!

 

Best regards

Paul

 

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎23‎/‎05‎/‎2020 at 14:50, Tallpaul69 said:

Ok, sheets it is!

Regarding the way the sheets were used prior to the Clay Hoods, I agree that in many instances standard opens with sheet rails were used on the inland routes where end tipping was not needed, otherwise if Clays were used they just had sheets placed flat over the load.

For the moment, I cannot lay my hands (typical!) on a published view that supports this wagon as portrayed.

If I find a suitable open before I find the reference, I will do a swap, as the sheet over the bar differentiates this wagon from the one at the front of my consist.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

!

Found it!

The photo I was referring to above, is as follows:-

It is in "Western Main Lines -Paddington to Ealing" by Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith (Middleton Press ISBN 1-901706-370).

It is Photo number 107 and shows Hown Hall (7910, a Southall Loco) on 6th of May 1961 at Acton. It is at the head of 20+ China Clay wagons with peaked sheets as covers.

Now I agree that the detail of the wagons isn't great and ,yes, they could be ordinary 5 plank wagons with sheet bars.

 

If anyone can view this photo, I would welcome their thoughts.

The quality of the photo is not the best, so irrespective of copyright issues, it would not reproduce well, which is why I will not try to post it here!

 

Hope you are enjoying your (lockdown) Bank Holiday?

Stay safe, keep to your homes,

Best regards

Paul

[The Johnster]

That certainly chimes with my own approach, Paul.  My strengths, if they can be claimed as such, are in operating as closely as I can to the 1955 Rule Book, the General and Regional appendices, and my interpretation of what I think might have been likely to have been the Sectional Appendix references to my imaginary railway in a real place, much of which exists only in the shattered remnants of the destroyed civilisation that was, many years ago, my mind...

 

I operate fixed rakes for my coal trains, but the pickups shunt.  They are not in set rakes or formations, but made up at Tondu yard according to the traffic labelled to destinations on the Cwmdimbath branch that day, and return thence with whatever is ready to be cleared at Cwmdimbath goods depot and the other sidings along the branch.  I have a pool of some 3 dozen general merchandise goods vans and opens, of which 13 are what I refer to as specialists; conflats, cattle, tank, insulateds, end door mogos and such.  I have tried to provide reasonable ratios of fitted to unfitted and vans to opens for my period, with what I think might have been near enough to the proportion of new BR or later Big 4 vehicles, many of which were still being built by BR during my nominal period, the decade 1948-58.

 

So, when I make up today's afternoon pickup (it's currently about 11 am on a weekday at Cwmdimbath, and the morning 'as required' working has been and gone), I will choose from this pool.  In this way the trains are never identical from day to day, and vehicles from the morning train are banned in the afternoon, but they are similar, occasional special traffic can be catered to, and the formation of Cwmdimbath traffic and traffic picked up on the outward journey, then traffic to be delivered on the return, is the same every day.  A railwayman familiar with the branch would be able to tell you by looking at the train where the 'cuts' are and what the traffic actually is, and also tell you the time of day roughly by looking at what's in the goods siding and in what order.

 

Specialist stock can be used for ordinary traffic if there is nothing else handy, as can containers on conflats, but of course these have to be not loaded in high opens as the doors are then inaccessible.  But they can be loaded on dropside mediums, and while they should not be loaded on dropside 1 plankers, sometimes were in reality and this is reflected on the model.  This allows the empties to be occasionally in demand elsewhere and chased up by Control, so they can sometimes be attached to passenger trains as tail traffic or have to be dug out of the back end of the siding by the next pickup.  All this takes place in my head and is a lot of fun, as well as addressing some of the real day to day issues that a goods depot chargehand might have had to deal with in the 50s.  

 

I can liven things up by arbitrarily green or red carding any vehicle any time I like.  I can also send ordinary goods traffic to the colliery, or retrieve it from thence.  Collieries need pit props, and occasionally other materials, and might have delivery of equipment in covered vans, shocvans if it's precision kit.  Moreover, when the NCB came into being in 1947, they promised that canteens and pithead baths would be provided at all collieries; the days of the tin bath in front of the fire and wooden seats that could be hosed down in workmen's trains were numbered.  There is building work going on at the imaginary colliery to build these facilities, so building materials are sometimes delivered by rail, either off the pickup or as Control ordered specials.  It all livens proceedings in my head.

 

In some ways my modelling is 'cerebral', and I have constructed an entire imaginary life for Cwmdimbath, with imaginary real problems and issues; the layout is in this sense not much more than a visualisation aid.  Another thing is the boiler washouts for locos; they must be taken out of service every 10 working days for 2 days for this to be done, and even if some of the work is done on Sundays when nothing runs, it means every loco duty must have 2 locos at least to cover it.  There are not enough auto fitted locos to cover the work, which was the case at the real Tondu, so it is possible to see auto trailers at Cwmdimbath with non-auto locos that have to run around them to haul them back to Bridgend as ordinary stock.  

 

Photos of Abergwynfi confirm that this was not an altogether unusual practice, and since the WTT is operated in real time with condensed time when nothing is happening, it can lead to cumulative delays and out of course working; again, Control arranges this in theory, but often the ideas come from the men on the ground, drivers, guards, and station staff.  A loco off a mineral working might be pinched to save time running round in an attempt to catch up with things, and the loco that brought the passenger in might end up hauling the loaded coal train, fun if it's a pannier (they can cope, but only just).  I haven't yet used my 42xx on a passenger working, it just doesn't look right though they were pressed into service on Bank Holiday excursions, but it could happen; watch this space...

[The Johnster]

Part of all this of course is loads, loads of 'em.  A van can contain anything my imagination will let it, but opens are different.  A sheeted open can only appear as part of a cut of stock picked up on the outward part of the trip or to be delivered on the return; it can't be used as traffic for Cwmdimbath itself as it would be very unlikely that a sheeted load inwards would be balanced by one outwards; the wagon has to return visibly empty as, unless someone devises an unobtrusive method of fixing and removing sheets, I can't 'show' the wagon being unloaded and sent back empty.  The only scenario I can think of that might allow this is a machine tool or piece of equipment returned under warranty or for repair; a new item is sent out sheeted and the old one returned to the factory a day or so later, also sheeted.  This cannot be any more than a very occasional occurrence or it loses credibility.

 

Cwmdimbath is a mining village, so the great bulk of the general merchandise traffic is loaded in, empty out.  I have a selection of loads; the usual tractors and farm machinery, timber, cable drums, and some resin sheeted loads from Bachmann, Scalescene packing cases, oil drums and stuff in casks, but really need to pay more attention to this and increase the variety.  Scalescene brick loads are great for lorries picking them up mileage, but the wrong size for wagons.  

 

Down the branch out of sight are a sawmill, food processing plant, foundry, and a mail order distribution depot which attracts NPCCS, but is occasionally the source of a shocvan.  The foundry sends sheeted loads out in opens, unnamed horrors in vans, and sometimes something in a long packing case on a bogie bolster, and is clamouring for casting sand, a job for a for a sand tippler which might have to be sheeted.  These places provide loaded traffic that has been picked up already, and empty wagons to be delivered on the way back.

 

More interest can be introduced with uncollected loads at the goods depot.  Mileage traffic is unloaded by the customer or his agent on to his vehicle, and TBCF, To Be Called For, is unloaded by BR staff but kept at the depot, and at Cwmdimbath things are very cramped.  Demurrage is charged for uncollected items, but the van cannot be dispatched until it is empty and the mileage rates, and their demurrage, are set by government.  Pre-Beeching, the railway was a 'common carrier' by the terms of the acts of parliament that had brought it into existence, and obliged to take general merchandise mileage and TBCF which they really didn't want.  This is why so much marketing effort was put into the advantages of door to door delivery and the use of specialist vehicles that the railway could charge a premium for, and had been for most of the 20th century.

 

In the 50s and 60s they were so low that it was cheaper to pay them and use the railway vehicles, vans especially, as low cost secure covered storage, secure in the knowledge that if goods spoiled, or were pilfered, the railway would compensate you.  This unfair practice, for which parliament was responsible and for which one can hardly blame the customers who benefitted, one of the few things that Beeching did well to dispose of, drove costs up and efficiency down, maybe a quarter of the general merchandise fleet sitting blocking sidings and loading bays, and being unavailable for work, one of the reasons so many of BR's new build wagons had such a short working life.

 

Because at the same time that the Doctor did away with it, he used the costs and incomes generated previously to justify closing most of the small depots that were providing an essential service to their communities and might, freed of this burden, have been able to continue to do so.  The customers, who now had no choice, abandoned the railway in droves and paid road hauliers.  From a modelling perspective, siding blockers of this sort can be used to disrupt your traffic and make things more interesting, especially at small depot where there was nowhere to put the offending mileage traffic without blocking something else up!

 

Another consideration, for vans, is the choice of sliding or outward opening doors.  The two biggest fleet owners at nationalisation, the LMS and LNER, had agreed common wagon design features before the war, and these included sliding doors for vans.  Many of the customers they served had loading bays which were little more than openings in the side walls of whatever building it was, so it was necessary to deliver to them in vans with sliding doors.  But the GW and Southern retained opening doors, while of course many older LMS or LNE vans had them as well, and the BR standard vans followed the GW pattern, but with corrugated ends and a single ventilator; they had opening doors.  

 

I am actually not certain that it was possible to specify a sliding door van when you were ordering one to be loaded at your premises, or for unloading either for that matter, but there must have been some method of arranging it.  It probably went wrong sometimes and a van would have to be unloaded and reloaded in a sliding door van.  I'm sure someone will put us straight (paging Stationmaster, Statiomaster to the thread, please...).

 

Or perhaps the customer has ordered a ventilated van, and the only one you have on hand is an ex-LMS with roof vents.  But the roof is leaking so you have to put a sheet over it, blocking the ventilators.  What do you do, as chargehand at Cwmdimbath goods, do you chance it and hope it doesn't rain (come on, this is the Valleys, of course it's going to rain)?  Do you phone Control for another van and delay the shipment's dispatch until it arrives and the reloading is finished, despite being told to limit double handling as far as possible?  Do you have room in the secure storage to manage?  It is up to you to decide what is the best course of action, and this will depend on the time of day and the next clearance.  If your leaky van has sliding doors and you don't know what facilities the customer has, and the replacement van has opening doors, again, do you chance it?  It's gone 5 o'clock, Goods Office at Cardiff Queen Street have gone home, you're off duty yourself at 6, and you can't phone out on the railway telephone to the GPO system to ask the customer, and it's your responsibility, that's why you get chargehand's wages.

 

All adds to the fun in your head!

Edited May 25, 2020 by The Johnster

[Tallpaul69]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I operate fixed rakes for my coal trains, but the pickups shunt.  They are not in set rakes or formations, but made up at Tondu yard according to the traffic labelled to destinations on the Cwmdimbath branch that day, and return thence with whatever is ready to be cleared at Cwmdimbath goods depot and the other sidings along the branch.  I have a pool of some 3 dozen general merchandise goods vans and opens, of which 13 are what I refer to as specialists; conflats, cattle, tank, insulateds, end door mogos and such.  I have tried to provide reasonable ratios of fitted to unfitted and vans to opens for my period, with what I think might have been near enough to the proportion of new BR or later Big 4 vehicles, many of which were still being built by BR during my nominal period, the decade 1948-58.

The amount of shunting that can be done "on scene" in my "Lower Thames Goods Shed" layout is limited, as the goods yard consists of  the Goods Shed siding and one other, with the Branch Carriage Siding doubling as the headshunt!

However, this layout is only a quarter of the area of my eventual "Lower Thames Yard" layout and more importantly the latter will include Maidenhead's relief lines and loops, so that there are several mainline pickups that can shunt, whereas in the Wycombe Branch, which is the area of the Goods Shed layout, only the late night pickup from Aylesbury shunted!

 

The larger Lower Thames Yard layout will also have the advantage of a low level storage  yard with several sidings accessible from the operating position and a yard shunting loco. 

With yesterday's news that model shops (as non essential shops!) should be able to reopen mid June, there is a prospect that my layout builders will be able to get back to work soon.

 

So I have to consult with them and decide whether I do more work on the "Goods Shed" layout or whether it reverts to its original purpose of being a test and programming track?

While the planning and effort put into the Goods Shed layout will not be wasted, I think I will move forward on planning for the larger layout where for instance, goods trains will be of 2, 3 or 4 sets long as against 1 or 2 sets on the Goods Shed Layout.

 

One aspect of the Goods Yard layout planning I will take forward, and post here, is the Wycombe Branch Passenger Trains, as I will need them for the larger layout, the only difference being that the suburban coach and DMUs will be 3 or 4 coaches instead of two! The auto trains and class 122s will be the same in both layouts.

 

A "tricks" which I had devised for the larger Lower Thames Yard but just couldn't find a way to work into the Goods Shed Layout, which is similar to The Johnstons loaded/unloaded opens, was my loaded/ unloaded coal wagons:-

In Lower Thames Yard there will be two sidings which start in the scenic yard and run parallel to the relief lines disappearing under a bridge to re appear in the Wycombe Branch part of the fiddle yard.

These work by receiving full coal wagons in the scenic area, which are pushed back so that the rear wagon is under the bridge. A shunter approaches from the fiddle yard and pulls the full coal wagons back into the fiddle yard, then it picks up a set of empty coal wagons from a siding and pushes them back under the bridge to replace the full ones. Later these empties are towed away.

 

I hope you are all enjoying the sunshine and your modelling?

Cheers

Paul

 

 

[The Johnster]

Just now, Tallpaul69 said:

The amount of shunting that can be done "on scene" in my "Lower Thames Goods Shed" layout is limited, as the goods yard consists of  the Goods Shed siding and one other, with the Branch Carriage Siding doubling as the headshunt!

However, this layout is only a quarter of the area of my eventual "Lower Thames Yard" layout and more importantly the latter will include Maidenhead's relief lines and loops, so that there are several mainline pickups that can shunt, whereas in the Wycombe Branch, which is the area of the Goods Shed layout, only the late night pickup from Aylesbury shunted!

 

The larger Lower Thames Yard layout will also have the advantage of a low level storage  yard with several sidings accessible from the operating position and a yard shunting loco. 

With yesterday's news that model shops (as non essential shops!) should be able to reopen mid June, there is a prospect that my layout builders will be able to get back to work soon.

 

So I have to consult with them and decide whether I do more work on the "Goods Shed" layout or whether it reverts to its original purpose of being a test and programming track?

While the planning and effort put into the Goods Shed layout will not be wasted, I think I will move forward on planning for the larger layout where for instance, goods trains will be of 2, 3 or 4 sets long as against 1 or 2 sets on the Goods Shed Layout.

 

One aspect of the Goods Yard layout planning I will take forward, and post here, is the Wycombe Branch Passenger Trains, as I will need them for the larger layout, the only difference being that the suburban coach and DMUs will be 3 or 4 coaches instead of two! The auto trains and class 122s will be the same in both layouts.

 

A "tricks" which I had devised for the larger Lower Thames Yard but just couldn't find a way to work into the Goods Shed Layout, which is similar to The Johnstons loaded/unloaded opens, was my loaded/ unloaded coal wagons:-

In Lower Thames Yard there will be two sidings which start in the scenic yard and run parallel to the relief lines disappearing under a bridge to re appear in the Wycombe Branch part of the fiddle yard.

These work by receiving full coal wagons in the scenic area, which are pushed back so that the rear wagon is under the bridge. A shunter approaches from the fiddle yard and pulls the full coal wagons back into the fiddle yard, then it picks up a set of empty coal wagons from a siding and pushes them back under the bridge to replace the full ones. Later these empties are towed away.

 

I hope you are all enjoying the sunshine and your modelling?

Cheers

Paul

 

 

I am, to the extent that I painted my most recent kit build, a Parkside 1/019 dropside medfit, out on the patio.

 

My mineral operation is in a state of flux now just, following a relaying of the fiddle yard and the conversion of what was an industrial estate siding to the colliery access road.  Sequence is basically this; empties arrive from Tondu, van is detached, train pulled forward and set back into colliery road to exchange sidings.  Loco uncouples and draws forward, then sets back on to van left on running road, couples, and moves the van onto the colliery road, where it waits until the loaded appear.  The van is now the right end for departure, so the train is hauled back into the platform road, propelled forward to clear the loco release, and run around.  It is now ready for either departure Tondu or shunting on to the loop out of the way depending on whether the next passenger's off Brynmenin or not.

 

I can move the empties to the exchange yard and replace them with the loadeds by hand, as the rear of the train is hidden by the scenic break, but have the opportunity to incorporate a colliery loco here.  If this is hired from BR, it can come out on to BR running lines, and a more interesting shunt can be made with the train engine attaching after the hired colliery pannier has drawn the loadeds into the platform road.  This is an unlikely complication, however, and the rational way to do this is to propel the loadeds on to the van on the colliery road.  I am thinking in terms of a proper colliery loco, a Peckett or AB, to do the work I am doing by hand, but you'd never see it unless it came out of it's hidey hole to pick up pit props or building materials, so not much bang for your buck.  I could automate the colliery movements with anything on hand, and ultimately want to; I am attracted by the idea of movement taking place on the colliery road while the autos ebb and flow on the running line, or the pickup sorts itself out.

 

A colliery loco can of course appear on demand at will in the interim periods between main line coal workings, nosing into the scenic area in the course of colliery shunting as it uses the colliery exchange access road as a headshunt for the shenanigans of placing empties in the washery and drawing them out loaded.  It's a lot of money, but I'm tempted.  As well as the saddle tanks mentioned, a steam sentinel is suitable as well, as there was a real one not very far away, Blaengarw in the next but one valley over, working for the NCB, blue liveried and suitable for my period.

 

We'll see...

 

Stay safe, mate!

[Tallpaul69]

Good Day Everyone,

While researching another wagon topic I came across some further information on the use of Sheets on china clay wagons prior to the introduction of the "Clayhoods", as discussed earlier in this thread:-

In J.H. Russell's "Freight Wagons and Loads in service on the Great Western Railway and British Rail, Western Region" (Oxford Publishing 1981), figures 27 and 28 (the book does not do page numbers!!) show both ends of a 5 plank China Clay end door wagon W94071 fitted with an internal sheet bar.

The text does not make it clear whether the sheet bar is a permanent fixture or not, The top of the rail appears to be about 2 planks above the top of the wagon.

I am going to raise a thread in the Prototype section and also in the GWR prototype and models section to see if anyone has further information.

Hope the above is of interest?

 

Stay safe

Best regards

Paul

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Good Day Everyone,

While researching another wagon topic I came across some further information on the use of Sheets on china clay wagons prior to the introduction of the "Clayhoods", as discussed earlier in this thread:-

In J.H. Russell's "Freight Wagons and Loads in service on the Great Western Railway and British Rail, Western Region" (Oxford Publishing 1981), figures 27 and 28 (the book does not do page numbers!!) show both ends of a 5 plank China Clay end door wagon W94071 fitted with an internal sheet bar.

The text does not make it clear whether the sheet bar is a permanent fixture or not, The top of the rail appears to be about 2 planks above the top of the wagon.

I am going to raise a thread in the Prototype section and also in the GWR prototype and models section to see if anyone has further information.

Hope the above is of interest?

 

Stay safe

Best regards

Paul

I forgot to look in that book!

[Tallpaul69]

Good Afternoon all,

 

They say things come in threes, and that is certainly true , for me, of yesterday!

Fortunately only two of the three events were bad.

So firstly, yesterday morning, I went for a walk, but unfortunately, taking care over social distancing, I tripped over a kerb, and landed flat on my face! Fortunately the damage was limited to scrapes and bruises, but I decided to take it easy for the rest of the day.

In the afternoon, I was just settling to compose a posting for this thread when my wife called me to tell me that we had low water pressure.

Checks of our system seemed to indicate all was functioning correctly, so it was a phone call to the water company.

Eventually getting to talk to a human being, they said someone would come out within six hours. To be fair, we got a call from an engineer about an hour later. On checking while he was on the line I found the pressure was back to normal!

Finally, the good thing that happened was that Boris confirmed the easing of measures from Monday, particularly welcome was the ability for six people to get together in a garden, which meant our eldest son and his family can come over for my wife's birthday on Tuesday.

 

I had intended yesterday for a change from the recent wagon topics on this thread to talk about the local and suburban passenger trains on my Lower Thames Goods Shed layout, so I will press on with that topic today:-

Maidenhead was the point at which the suburban trains out of Paddington met the local trains running along the High Wycombe Branch from High Wycombe and Aylesbury. There was some overlap, some of the trains from Paddington ran onto the Branch, and some of the Branch trains ran as far as Slough.

The suburban trains in the late 50s were mainly 5 coach sets hauled by 61xx 2-6-2 tanks. As time progressed these were replaced by class 117 three coach DMUs sometimes singly, sometimes in multiples.

Because Lower Thames Goods Shed is a small layout its suburban sets will only have two coaches, the DMUs being represented by a Class 121, sometimes with a single trailer or by a single 3 coach Class 117.  

One branch train that will be accurately represented is the 14xx plus autocoach that spent most of its day shuttling between Bourne End and Marlow but in the late morning and evening, did make trips to Maidenhead.

The rest of the branch steam hauled trains will like the suburban steam hauled be of two coaches. I may include for variety, although not historical accuracy, one B set.

 

I will detail the trains and the models I will be using to portray them in more detail in future posts.

 

Keep smiling, stay safe, and here's hoping you all can also meet up soon in the garden with family,

Best regards

Paul  

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Tallpaul69
Spelling, punctuation and improving sense!

[Nick Gough]

3 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

 

So firstly, yesterday morning, I went for a walk, but unfortunately, taking care over social distancing, I tripped over a kerb, and landed flat on my face! Fortunately the damage was limited to scrapes and bruises, but I decided to take it easy for the rest of the day.

 

Sorry to hear this Paul.

My wife had a similar accident in early lockdown but ended up with a nasty cut on her forehead. Of course we were about half an hour's walk from home, she had damaged her glasses and was a bit shaky. So I had to dash home, collect the car, pick her up for a visit to casualty.

I wasn't allowed to go in with her but, fortunately, it was the quickest hospital visit we have ever made and, after a couple of stitches, wasn't as serious as it could have been!

[The Johnster]

Take it easy, Paul, beware of delayed shock.  

 

No easing of restrictions to any significant extend in Wales for another 3 weeks; our R is .8, England's is .7.  And no chance of pubs opening anywhere!

[Nick Gough]

52 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

Sorry to hear this Paul.

My wife had a similar accident in early lockdown but ended up with a nasty cut on her forehead. Of course we were about half an hour's walk from home, she had damaged her glasses and was a bit shaky. So I had to dash home, collect the car, pick her up for a visit to casualty.

I wasn't allowed to go in with her but, fortunately, it was the quickest hospital visit we have ever made and, after a couple of stitches, wasn't as serious as it could have been!

I should say we were out for our daily exercise with the dog at the time!

[Hal Nail]

On 27/05/2020 at 14:07, Tallpaul69 said:

Good Day Everyone,

While researching another wagon topic I came across some further information on the use of Sheets on china clay wagons prior to the introduction of the "Clayhoods", as discussed earlier in this thread:-

In J.H. Russell's "Freight Wagons and Loads in service on the Great Western Railway and British Rail, Western Region" (Oxford Publishing 1981), figures 27 and 28 (the book does not do page numbers!!) show both ends of a 5 plank China Clay end door wagon W94071 fitted with an internal sheet bar.

The text does not make it clear whether the sheet bar is a permanent fixture or not, The top of the rail appears to be about 2 planks above the top of the wagon.

I am going to raise a thread in the Prototype section and also in the GWR prototype and models section to see if anyone has further information.

Hope the above is of interest?

 

Stay safe

Best regards

Paul

Hi,

 

Directed here by the other thread.

 

I might be wrong but I didn't think the original 013 GWR china clay wagons and later BR version strayed far from Cornwall/Devon much. The long distance clay trains to Stoke etc typically used other open 5 plank wagons, certainly in later years.

 

The GWR type were pretty rare by the late 50s, you see a few  but most photos are of the BR replacements. As said elsewhere the classic tent hood and roller bearings were diesel era modifications.

 

I don't have the book you refer to but I've never seen any evidence of an internal bar (other than the hinge for the end door) on the GWR version - either in diagrams, historical photos or the many preserved ones (loads of photos on Google) so completely flummoxed by this! I'd say it wasn't usual.

 

Ian

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Tallpaul69]

Here's another Sunny Good Day to you all,

 

I'm picking up on various recent comments, here , and also a few snippets of information that have come my way! So the further examination of coaching stock for Lower Thames Goods Yard will have to wait for another day.

 

Firstly, my thanks for the good wishes following my recent trip (up!). In particular I hope Nick that your wife is ok now. Fortunately my injuries were mainly grazes and small cuts so they are healing nicely.

 

The saga of sheet bars on china clay seems to have come to a conclusion whereby the only china clay carrying wagons in the late 50s/early 60s with bars were those standard 5 plank wagons fitted with them for general service, and if end door china clay wagons had to be used on this traffic due to a lack of  sufficient of the standard 5 planks then they were fitted with "flat" sheets to protect the load. It looks like W94071 was just a one off prototype that was not perpetuated?

Unless any one knows different...……??

 

I decided this week to take a trawl through my GWR Journals. I did this some time ago to extract those with articles or photos relevant to the

Reading -Slough and High Wycombe branch areas. I was pleased to find one article I had missed in issue 88 about the 0925 Hinksey Goods. This was the morning pick up goods from Hinksey via Thame and Princes Risborough to Slough.

While the article concentrated on the Hinksey -Thame - Princes Risborough part of the trip it did give me a number of useful bits of information:-

1) The Loco generally used was a 61xx (which I knew), which travelled bunker first (which I didn't know).

2) It also confirmed the train crossed with the morning Slough to Hinksey at Princes Risborough and that the loco crew and guard swapped trains (which I had guessed but it was nice to have confirmed!). 

3) It explained that the train from Hinksey  was often just an engine and van by the time it got to Princes Risborough, (which I didn't Know), and that there it picked up coal wagons for the paper mills on the High Wycombe  - Maidenhead branch (which I suspected but was pleased to have confirmed).

4) It also explained that the train from Slough was often only an engine and van by the time it reached Princes Risborough, and that on its run to Hinksey, it picked up wagons prepared by the earlier train from Hinksey. This I did not know.

All the above will be useful in adjusting the two pickups to run on Lower Thames Yard. I may well not bother to adjust the sets in the small Goods Shed Layout!

 

So wishing you all as enjoyable weekend as possible without bending the lockdown rules, we just have to be patient!

Cheers

Paul  

 

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

The saga of sheet bars on china clay seems to have come to a conclusion whereby the only china clay carrying wagons in the late 50s/early 60s with bars were those standard 5 plank wagons fitted with them for general service, and if end door china clay wagons had to be used on this traffic due to a lack of  sufficient of the standard 5 planks then they were fitted with "flat" sheets to protect the load. It looks like W94071 was just a one off prototype that was not perpetuated?

Unless any one knows different...……??

That's the conclusion I reached too. Use a standard non-end door 5-plank with a sheet bar.

[Tallpaul69]

Good Afternoon everyone,

This week I am looking at the coaching stock to run the trains on Lower Thames Goods Shed.

Essentially these are the trains along the High Wycombe branch plus a couple of trains that started from Maidenhead towards Paddington or in the reverse direction.

 

The first up train of the day, is typical of the line, and starts from the Branch Coach siding behind a 61xx that arrived chimney first from Slough Shed at 0530. After steam heating the coaches for a while they left the siding ready to depart for Paddington at 0600. In reality this train comprised 5 suburban coaches, but on Lower Thames Goods Shed there is only room for two. So un prototypically, they will be arranged composite then brake 2nd with the guards compartment next to the composite coach so as to place the guard towards the centre of the train in both directions. In the real life 5 coach set there was a brake coach at both ends of the set with the guards compartment outermost.

This set will comprise a Bachmann BR composite and a Hornby Collett Brake 2nd.

 

The first down passenger train is the 0620 from Slough which arrives at 0634. It also will be a 61xx plus two suburban coaches, but they will both be Hornby Colletts. This 61xx will be bunker first. 

The second up train starts from Maidenhead and is a class 117 three car DMU leaving at 0655. It starts up in the down siding at 0645 before moving to the branch platform at o650. Ther model will be a Lima class 117 with a cut and shut DMS. If there is not room for the tree cars then the centre trailer will be left out!

 

The third up passenger train will appear from Bourne End at 0743 and will be similar to the first up train above except for consisting of a Hornby Collett Composite plus a Bachmann BR Brake 2nd. The 61xx on this train will be chimney first, ie the opposite way round to the first up train.

At 0730 a class 117 DMU arrivers from Paddington to form the 0750 back to Paddington. Slightly unrealistically this will be the same DMU as formed the earlier 0655 from Maidenhead!

 

At 0740 we have another down train this also a modern version but is a class 121 single car DMU plus a driver trailer. At 0747 this departs for High Wycombe.

This model is a Dapol class 121 with a cut and shut lima centre car forming the trailer.

 

At 0820 a train arrives from High Wycombe which is the return of the first down train of the morning. It departs for Slough at 0832.

0832 sees the arrival of the 0737 from Paddington to Princes Risborough. To cut the space needed for coach sets on the layout this will be a return trip for the first up train that had been stabled at Maidenhead overnight. If space permits for a bit of variety this will be a three coach set.

 

The last of the morning up trains is the 0743 from Aylesbury arriving at 0854. The stock from this is shunted to the Branch Siding before the 61xx departs for Slough LE.

 

So we see that there is quite a variety of trains on this "branch" line!

The passenger trains through the middle of the day are a little less varied, but as I will show another day the evening "rush hour" is also quite varied!

 

Best regards

Paul

 

[Tallpaul69]

Well, that's summer over (in the UK at least!)

 

At the end of my last posting, I said that the passenger trains through the middle of the day on the High Wycombe Branch were not as varied as the morning and evening "rush".

Apart from the arrival of the 121 and trailer back from Aylesbury at 0922 and the passing of the LE from Princes Risborough off the 0540 Reading Parcels there were only two trips of the Marlow Donkey later in the morning and two trips of the 121 to Bourne End without its trailer in the early afternoon, before the 1506 departure for Aylesbury comprising the 121 and a "Large Van (according to the Local Parcels Formation Book!). 

 

To be fair the gaps do allow plenty of time for the shunter to do its stuff, and the shunting of the " Large Van" by the 121 between its trips to Bourne End are somewhat unusual.

 

In real life this "Large Van" arrived at Maidenhead at 1207 on the 11.38 Paddington to Didcot Parcels, but in the world of "Lower Thames Goods Shed" this train cannot physically run so I have to devise a means to get it on scene!

The easiest way would be to run the 1138 to Maidenhead only just with the "Large Van" and send its loco back towards Slough LE. I could make this slightly more interesting by having another "Large Van" ready for the loco to take back east. Alternatively I could use a 128 rather than a loco.

 

Next time I will detail the passenger trains after the 1506 to Aylesbury.

 

Stay Safe, be Alert,

Best regards

Paul 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Tallpaul69
missed out vital part of a sentence!

[Nick Gough]

5 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Well, that's summer over (in the UK at least!)

 

 

 

I thought the lockdown must have finished when I saw today's weather.

[Tallpaul69]

I had intended today to detail the late afternoon and evening passemger trains on Lower Thames Goods Shed.

However, as that would take a while and SHMBO has rescheduled my afternoon, I will limit myself to my latest thoughts on how to improve the flow of passenger traffic between 0900 and 1500:-

 

It occurred to me that it would be a reasonable compromise to include the approximately hourly Paddington to Reading and Reading to Paddington suburban trains.

This can be done by cutting the service back to Paddington to Maidenhead and return. There is stock already available for this in the shape of the morning Paddington to Maidenhead and return 3/2 car DMU and the steam set that covers the 0737 Paddington to Princes Risborough, which in reality returned to Paddington via the GW& GC after a trip from Princes Risborough to Thame. 

Cutting the trips back to Maidenhead would, if I keep to the original timings, result in a fairly lengthy turnaround stay at Maidenhead. It would be best to keep to the original timings because as far as possible they were planned to allow good transfers from and to the High Wycombe and Marlow trains at maidenhead.

Why not also include the Oxford and Didcot trains you might ask?

This would INHO be too unrealistic on what is a small layout and would give problems with some of those trains which were hauled by tender locos.

 

So I now need to look at the details of this and also decide also if I am going to treat any of the rush hour Reading Trains in the same way. My inclination is not too because I am not sure there will be enough trains on the layout to avoid any of them making unrealistically frequent (in my opinion!) appearances in the scenic section. 

Any thoughts gratefully received?

 

Best regards

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

Good Afternoon All,

I hope no one has suffered at the hands of the wind and the rain? We have quite a lot of small (tree!) branches down!

I haven't got to sorting out the timings of the Maidenhead to Paddington and return trips yet , so will concentrate today on the afternoon and evening passenger trains:-

 

Once the 1506 121 car and van have left for High Wycombe and the shunter has left for Taplow, all is quiet until around 1611 when a 61xx plus coaches appears from Slough as the 1558 from Slough to Aylesbury. This departs at 1620 then almost an hour later a light engine (another 61xx) arrives from Slough to collect the coaches from the Branch Siding and form the 1726 to High Wycombe. 

 

At 1755 the class 121 returns from Aylesbury towing a van (but not the same van it left for Aylesbury with at 1506!). It then deposits the van in the Branch Siding, collects its trailer and prepares to leave for Bourne End as the 1855.

But in between its movements the 1742 from Paddington to Aylesbury arrives at 1820, leaving at 1824. 

 

Next at 1920 a 61xx arrives with the 1838 from Paddington to Aylesbury. This must wait until 1925 to allow the next train off the branch. 

So at 1923 this train arrives in the shape of the 61xx that left with the 1726 to High Wycombe returns with the 1850 from there. As well as the coaches it left with it has also a GUV destined for Crewe via the 2010 parcels train.

Twenty minutes later the 121 and trailer growl through empty stock returning to Slough. and another 10 minutes after that at 1954 another passenger train arrives from the branch.

This is the 1825 from Aylesbury that left as the  1558 from Slough at 1620. This also has an extra load, this time two vans, both being forwarded on the 2010 parcels, one going to Didcot and the other a BG just to Reading. The train engine will act as a passenger pilot to place the passenger stock from this train into the Branch Siding and form the vans up for the 2010 Parcels. What I have yet to work out, and the WTTs are not clear, is where the loco for the 2010 Parcels comes from?

 

However, the shunting cannot start yet as there is one more imminent through down train. This is the 1904 from Paddington to Bourne End which arrives at 1956 and leaves at 2000 provided the above 1825 from Aylesbury has arrived off the Branch.

At 2054 the Marlow Donkey makes the first of its four evening visits at roughly hourly intervals to Maidenhead.

 

The only other evening passenger movements are the departure of the Slough and Reading Parcels at 2010 and at roughly hourly intervals trains from Paddington and their returns to meet with the Marlow Donkey.(in reality these trains ran between Reading and Paddington).

 

At just after 2100 the 61xx that powered the 1904 from Paddington returns from Bourne end LE to Slough.

Lastly at 2205 the loco off the 1954 arrival from Aylesbury finishes its shunting and leaves LE for Sough.

 

Thus it can be seen that the late afternoon to early evening period is just as busy as the morning rush hour?

I hope the above is of interest and not too complicated to follow!

Cheers for now

Paul

 

 

[Tallpaul69]

Boy, did we have some thunder storms here later yesterday, but no damage done!

 

In my write up yesterday of the afternoon and evening passenger services on Lower Thames Goods Shed, I forgot one important item:-

 

I need to run a Paddington to Maidenhead DMU in the late evening so there is a unit stabling overnight to form the 0655 to Paddington next morning (see my posting last Monday) .

The best candidate in the WTT for this is the 2155 Paddington to Reading arriving at 2248 which then connects with the 2254 departure of the Marlow Donkey. There is a later departure from Paddington at 2300 but this is a steam run to Oxford and Maidenhead is served by the rear portion of the train which is detached at Slough!

There is also a 2342 DMU from Paddington which would arrive at Maidenhead at 0034, but I am trying to make midnight the cut off time for my timetable. 

I might make a portrayal of the above steam trip the last appearance of one of my steam suburban sets, which would give a connection into the last Marlow Donkey. It would then return to Slough ECS, just before my 0000 cut off! Otherwise the last Marlow Donkey would only be picking up a few late night revelers from Maidenhead?

The return to Slough need not be ECS as the WTT shows on Saturday only a Train from Reading at 2345 to Slough calling at Maidenhead 0002 to 0004, a prime case to run 10 minutes earlier every night and apply rule 1? This would also excuse my not running the DMU (in real life from Reading) that left Maidenhead at 2325 for Paddington.

 

I will have to sort out the rest of the evening running of suburban DMUs and Steam to/from Paddington when I sort out the daytime running of those trains.

 

So best regards to All from a soggy South Bedfordshire,

Cheers

Paul

 

 

[Tallpaul69]

So, as I proposed in an earlier posting, a start has been made on analyzing the Paddington to Reading and return suburban trains running outside the rush hours with a view to modelling them as Paddington to Maidenhead and return trains by running one steam set and one DMU alternately around the right hand side of the Lower Thames Goods Yard Layout. 

 

In the 1961WTT there are 25 such trains Down but only 22 Up. This discrepancy is likely to be due to the fact that in reality coach sets and DMUs were stationed at a number of different points, not just Reading  and London and their daily duties did not always finish at the same point as they started!

There are 14 trips down and up that can reasonably be paired so I could just run those, or I can analyse the other Paddington outer suburban trips to Newbury, Didcot and Oxford to see if curtailing any of them give me more matches.

Another problem is that there are more DMU trips than Steam ones so my idea of alternating them for interest doesn't quite work, particularly as there are down trains that get to Maidenhead at a good time to match to a return up train but one train is a DMU, the other a Steamer!

I would prefer to avoid running the DMU or the rush hour steamers on consecutive trips, but there is not room in the fiddle yard to hold both the number of steam hauled sets needed for the rush hour services, more than one class 117 DMU, and the necessary parcels and Freight sets.  

There is another way that the outer suburban trains mentioned above could help because a higher proportion of them were steam than was the case with the Reading trains!  However, against this is that a number of the steam hauled trains particularly the Oxford ones had tender locos, which are not really suitable for a small layout.

Another possible compromise is to look at my 1959WTT, when the quantity of DMUs in service was smaller and see if using that will improve the number of steam runs I can use. 

 

Thus there is quite a lot more to do to get to a workable solution, so don't hold your breaths!

More to follow on this in a day or two (maybe!) 

Best regards

Paul

 

[Tallpaul69]

Good afternoon to you all,

I thought I would update you on my researches in sorting out the possibilities for Paddington to Maidenhead and reverse trains for the right side of Lower Thames Goods Shed, which is proving a challenge!

The steam hauled trains in particular are complicated by a number of factors, as to be sensible for this small layout the steam trains have to be:-

 

Tank Engine Hauled

Non corridor stock

Stopping at Maidenhead (preferably!)

 

Most of the Paddington to Reading (and reverse) trains are generally ok except for one or two that since my last post I have ruled out since I found they used corridor stock.

The longer distance trains (Paddington to Newbury/Hungerford/Frome and Paddington to Didcot/Swindon/Oxford/Banbury ) and reverse are less useful.

Most are corridor stock, just a couple each way are non corridor, and haulage is mainly tender Locos. In addition many do not stop at Maidenhead! 

 

So tomorrow I am taking a look at my 1959 WTT, but to make sense of this I will need to find a Carriage Working Book for the period, hopefully from Robert Carroll's many on line volumes!

 

I hope everyone is staying safe and keeping well.

Best regards

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

I have pasted this on Clive's Sheffield Exchange thread because of the regional link, but I thought others who read this thread might like the following from today's paper:-

 

"Pretentious Job Title of the Night

McKenzie's a " Performance Ambassador" for Trans Pennine Express(!) ( my italics and exclamation mark!)

We saw him on "The Railway 24/7" (Channel 5) helping people onto trains. It used to be a Porter's job.... but as service gets worse, titles get longer."

 

I have recorded this, but have yet to watch it.

Immediately "Train Manager" (Guard!) came to my mind but I am sure that those of you who have had the privilege (or misfortune!) to work in the industry can tell us of many more instances?

 

However, getting back to my Lower Thames layouts:-

 

I said yesterday that I was going to look at my 1959 WTT to help resolve my issues with Steam hauled suburban trains for Lower Thames Goods Shed.

A quick look at this suggested that this would not help as the Class 117 Diesels seem to have been introduced with the next WTT, Winter 1959/60.

However I thought I would look at the listings of Paddington arrivals and departures for 1955 in my copy of "Through the Links at Southall and Old Oak Common", as this might give me information about which of the outer suburban trains were hauled by 61xx.

This proved to be a good idea, because  I had not appreciated how little the train timings changed between 1955 (100% steam apart from the occasional AEC Railcar), and 1961 (Steam only in the rush hours).

This means that a compromise I can live with is to run as steam hauled and diesel  alternative suburban trains as I originally wanted. I just have to be careful not to run a 1955 steam train that had by 1961 had its time significantly altered or even the train removed. Similarly I will aim not to run as steam trains introduced for the diesel era.

I guess the continuation of the steam timings shows a number of things:-

1) How good at acceleration the 61xxs were with 5 coaches - comparable to one or two three car 117s.

2) Either management didn't trust the 117s (quite likely!), or they thought passengers would prefer the habitual times (quite likely, but not I would have thought passenger preferences were not at the front of management's mind!)

3) They wanted to avoid the trouble of recasting and introducing a new timetable. (Very likely and still a trouble today!)

4) They had enough on their plates sorting out loco/unit/coach /staff diagrams without timetable trouble as well (highly likely!)

 

So I will aim over the next day or two to post some photos of these steam trains and then next week to get back to my freight sets and post photos of some more of those.

 

Hope everyone s well and staying safe?

Take care

Cheers

Paul