“BEYOND DOVER”

[Mikkel]

On 16/04/2022 at 10:19, Northroader said:

I’ve put in a link to a piece on the London and Birmingham Railway, Mikkel, where the use of four wheel coach type vehicles for mail traffic is mentioned, corresponding to the Belgian ones.

https://tringlocalhistory.org.uk/Railway/c13_operational.htm

 

Thank you, I must look more closely at the one in York when I go there again some fine day.

 

[Northroader]

J.VANDENBERGHEN—BELGIAN RAILWAY TRAINS AND LOCOMOTIVES.

 

As you know, I’ve been digging around for Belgian pdf’s for the last week, and I’ve suspected there’s more if only I could get to them. Anyway, Patrick Tassignon has very kindly explained the system to me, and here’s the result.

The SNCB/NMBS had an engineer in the rolling stock department, J. Vandenberghen, who had authorship of a huge amount of books covering Belgian Railways motive power and rolling stock, so much that I think he must have had an army of helpers. Fortunately the whole lot has been digitised into pdf format by the Brussels Railway Museum, Trainworld. (Best to put “Trainworld Brussels” as there’s an American model shop of the same name) Then “heritage database” and then “Vandenberghen” and you’ve got a library sitting in your computer, full of all the information to model what takes your fancy in Belgium. (I haven’t got past the Belpaire period in the steam loco. histories myself)

 

https://nmbs-asp.adlibhosting.com/results

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

I’ve been digging around for Belgian pdf’s

 

The high-flying life of a railway modeller.

 

Thank you for yet another interesting link. The Brussels museum seems to have some interesting models too.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Monsieur Vandenberghen must have hated his job. 

[Northroader]

 

J. VANDENBERGHEN—BELGIAN LOCOMOTIVES.

 

For a long time, the reference book I used for Belgian steam was a paperback by Phil Dambly published in 1968: “Nos Inoubliables Vapeur”, which I think was superseded by a larger hardback edition. Anyway, I’ve found an improved source of reference in the Vandenberghen pdf’s. It’s a bit more detailed generally, and does deal with individual loco numbers and in service dates, and covers from the 1830s to the 1920s. You can then get more information for each class in files for periods relating to the individual engineers.

https://nmbs-asp.adlibhosting.com/Content/GetContent?command=getcontent&server=pdf&value=2019\201905\C3523-k.pdf

Edited May 20, 2022 by Northroader

[Northroader]

EUROPEAN PICTORIAL MAPS AND POSTERS.

 

Just some European railway related artwork which may give some inspiration and enjoyment.

 

https://retours.eu/en/46-pictorial-railway-maps/

 

p.s. be sure to look at the links at the bottom, too.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

The difference between portraying railway lines as curved or straight is quite striking. The latter was of course in some cases a useful visual tool (tube maps etc) but the two styles also represent different ways to see the world. The curved lines may be deemed romantic by some, but interestingly they are also closer to reality.

 

Anyway, too early in the day for philosophy.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Mikkel
Grammar

[Northroader]

OLD FRENCH POSTCARDS- LOCOMOTIVES AND TRAINS.

 

Yes, Mikkel, the balance between Romanticism and  Classicism, it’s really what Railways are all about, isn’t it?

 

 

Now, I’m at one with Alice, who remarked “what’s the use of a book without pictures and conversations”? and I try to apply the same principle on this thread. You can imagine how down I was about the recent loss of pictures debacle. I am trying to very slowly restore the lost ones from since May 2021, and I was quite pleased to spot that one illustration from before then has reappeared (yes, just one so far, indefinite means just that).

Its probably considered totally the wrong thing to do, but while I was at it I couldn’t resist doing some additions to pad things out here and there, and make things more informative. Another job is I’m adding “tags” in bold print at the start of some posts as a kind of bookmark, to show where there’s a useful link. Fortunately this thread has kept quite compact and retained its shape, so it is possible to reference something fairly easily.

Youll see there’s a tag at the top of this post, whats that about? well, looking round for a picture to fill in an old post, I found a site which has a huge collection of old French postcards. Besides all the town and country stuff, there’s a large section devoted to railway themes, quite exhaustive. It’s a tribute to the methodical logic of the Gallic mind, I would say, there isn’t anything as good for Britain:

 

https://www.cparama.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=113

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Northroader

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

OLD FRENCH POSTCARDS- LOCOMOTIVES AND TRAINS.

https://www.cparama.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=113

 

 

OK - is this a French version of the Jones Goods?

 

.... and what's with the second vehicle in the train?

 

CJI.

 

 

[Pacific231G]

22 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

OK - is this a French version of the Jones Goods?

 

.... and what's with the second vehicle in the train?

 

CJI.

 

 

No, it's a Drummond Highland Railway Castle Class loco- or rather one of fifty machines built for the CF de l'Etat by North British in 1911 to the same 1900 design (which was based on a Jones design). They were ordered for immadiate delivery in a motive power crisis. This particular loco was North British works no, 19515. They were withdrawn between 1932-1938 though three (not including 329) were reinstated in 1941 and may have lasted until 1945.  

The Etat had quite a lot of NBR built locos not least the Consolidations that became SNCF 140C. It must be galling for anyone Scottish that the French referred to these Glasgow built machines as Les Anglais.

I've no idea about the second wago but

Edited May 20, 2022 by Pacific231G

[Northroader]

I’m afraid no idea on that second vehicle, first look I thought a container in a lowside, but the sides are flush all the way up?

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I’m afraid no idea on that second vehicle, first look I thought a container in a lowside, but the sides are flush all the way up?

 

Isn't it a road vehicle on a low-slung wagon of some sort?

[Andy Hayter]

Not certain about the second vehicle but it looks to me to be a canvass sheet hanging down the side.  The height suggests to me that this might be a double deck - possibly even a triple deck animal wagon - used in this configuration for transporting pigs, sheep or poultry.  The canvass  sheet would partially protect the animals inside but would equally stop bedding (and worse) being blown out of the slatted sides.  

[alastairq]

Looks like a road van [such as those that were/are pulled by traction engines, or horses?] on a low loader, as Stephen notes...

[TT-Pete]

As the old Royal Mail advert used to say, I saw this and thought of you:

 

 

[cctransuk]

A recent episode of "Maigret" - 'The Golden Fleece' - (Talking Pictures channel / the Rupert Davies series) - was set at a canal lock / wharf in Paris.

 

There was some excellent footage of the metre gauge overhead electric haulage railway that was a feature of many / most french major waterways.

 

Also apparent in operation was an overhead electric gantry system, apparently used for barge haulage / manoevring purposes.

 

CJI.

[Northroader]

There’s an interesting location at Arzvillier, where the Paris - Strasbourg main line and the Rhine -Marne canal run in parallel tunnels through the watershed of the Vosges. You can see the old tramtrack for the electric donkeys, this has fallen out of use, all the barges are big with it and diesel powered. (Forget British “narrowboats”) The nearby station is  Lutzelbourg, and up above on the crest of the hill is an old castle, very picturesque.

[Northroader]

Isn’t good when you’ve got it all at your fingertips? I thought some vehicles towards an old Belgian passenger train would be nice, starting with a third class carriage, and it must have a brakemans compartment, as this forms such a clear distinction for a continental vehicle, as distinct from British practice. So, look up Mynheer Vandenberghen’s four wheel coach book, and on to page 86. Here’s the largest batch of these coaches, 113 built in 1879 by various contractors. (It would appear the bulk of new builds was done like this, rather in the railway shops, and Belgium did build up a healthy export market)

It just so happened I had a five compartment French third which I had made, then decided it was excess for requirements to fit in with the fleet to run on a minimum space line. How do the dimensions compare? Longeur hors caisse, 170mm; hauteur 49mm;  largeur (width) 61mm; epattement (wheelbase) 93mm. It fits! (Perhaps I should say all my 0 gauge modelling is done on 1/43 scale, a lot of continental practice uses 1/45 scale). All that’s needed is to change the brakie’s hutch, as this is an overhanging sentry box centrally placed. First off trim the chassis, brass strip, back to flush with the body that end. Then trim out the sentry box and repanel the holes in the end and the roof, all in plastikard. The third compartment at that end has a transverse central partition to form a cupboard for the brakeman, and the compartment side has to be replaced on the one side, as the entrance door is displaced to the one side, no longer being centrally placed. A new roof lookout was made in brass sheet and glued in place. While I was at it I tried to make the lamptops more like the diagram with milliput doughnuts.

Painting is dark green, but I must confess I do like my trains to look cheerful. The correct shade is most likely an Olive Green, like the Maunsell SR coach colour, which is rather dowdy, and I’ve used BR dmu green, which is a bit brighter. It’s also got the correct fleet number, in the 3987-4099 block.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Northroader

[pete_mcfarlane]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

Here’s the largest batch of these coaches, 113 built in 1879 by various contractors. (It would appear the bulk of new builds was done like this, rather in the railway shops, and Belgium did build up a healthy export market)

 

Didn't Belgium have a policy of spreading orders around multiple builders to keep as many firms in business as possible?

 

[Northroader]

Just looking at that particular vehicle, all built in one year:

societe metallurgique 28 + 26

cabany.                          14

nicaise & Delaune.       15 + 15

verhaeghen.                  15

were the Belgian Railways being altruistic? or did the members of parliament for each area come along and say you’re a nationalised firm, spend the money you’ve been given in my constituency? did the manufacturers say none of them had the resources to handle one single large order? didn’t the accountants ask why the tender hadn’t gone to the lowest quote? did the boss come along and say there’s money left in the pot to spend, but it must be done before the financial year ends in April? (Don’t you love it when that happens, or was it just me on BR?)

[Andy Hayter]

But there are plenty of examples in the UK of work being farmed out to several outside manufacturers while a portion might have remained in house.  I don't believe that MP pressure caused the choice of outsourced producers - price and delivery date were likely to be more important.

[Northroader]

Who can say?

Edited May 27, 2022 by Northroader

[Flying Fox 34F]

Every organization has money left over to spend between January and March.  An Accountant once told me, spend all the budget each year or the Top Brass will cut it back!

 

Paul

[Northroader]

FRANCE- CHEMIN DE FER DE L’OUEST.  (+subsequent posts)

 

I was looking round the Zurich University archive recently, and come across this charming photograph, which to me says it all about a very modellable line, which is worth a look at:

 

A “Bicyclette” 2-4-0T of the Chemin de Fer de l’OUEST, which have been mentioned before on here. Padding it out with a painting by Claud Buret, showing a livery of green (moss green, lovat green?) lined out red, and a drawing:

There’s a very nice selection of pictures of the old OUEST loco. fleet here:

https://www.cparama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=21239&sid=b9d717405f4c3340671a393603426f1a

 

The signal is interesting, being particular to the OUEST. Semaphore signals in France usually  related to entry to block sections, and here we’ve got a broad arm painted like the carre chequerboard, which can retract into a very wide slotted “post”. This gave absolute stop, but there was also another arm behind, in blue glass with white letters “ATTon” abbreviation for “attention”, which could be passed at caution when displayed, giving “permissive” block working. Both arms in the post gave “line clear”.

(Wait and watch carefully, the drawing is animated)

http://roland.arzul.pagesperso-orange.fr/voie/signal_canton.htm

 

The page explaining this is from Roland Arzul’s site, a real labour of love and the “go to” site for all matters for the OUEST, and also the ETAT:

http://roland.arzul.pagesperso-orange.fr

 

 

The first railway in Paris opened in 1837 to St. Germain, and this became the start of the OUEST system, going from what became St.Lazare station down the Seine to Rouen and spreading out through Normandy, and parallel development from Montparnasse station in Paris out to Brittany. Freight traffic was mainly agricultural, no industrial areas were served, and the P.O. had a competing line into Brittany as well. Suffice to say that by 1908, the debts were colossal, the OUEST became insolvent, and it was taken over by the State owned ETAT system. Still 1908 is about the cutoff date for me in any case, the size of trains and locos was becoming too much to accommodate on a small model railway.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Northroader said:

There’s a very nice selection of pictures of the old OUEST loco. fleet here:

https://www.cparama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=21239&sid=b9d717405f4c3340671a393603426f1a

 

Some interesting compounds there - the 4-cylinder 4-4-0s No. 502 and No. 545 of Série 500 à 560 look as if they might be drawing some inspiration from the Webb compound.

 

Lots of characteristically Gallic machines - lots of overhang - but then pops up a rather British-looking 4-4-0 No. 983 of Série 960 à 999 - the first bogie type, apparently: one builds up a picture of the class: No. 951, one of two built in 1888, Nos. 953 and 959 of série 953 à 962 built 1891, No. 979 of série 963 à 982 built 1892, No. 987 of série 983 à 990 built 1893.

 

Ah - found them. All French-built (for a certain definition of France) but presumably based on the earlier 639-706 series of which 12 were by Sharp Stewart and 20 by Neilson, apparently as 2-4-0s.  

 

There's a rather British-looking 0-6-0T too, No. 3554, one of a class of nearly 100. It just needs those footsteps widening a little... But also all French-built, I see.

 

i don't much care for that lumping big Pacific, though, for all that the top brass are milling around it...