Pre-Nationalisation diesel 0-6-0 shunters

[5050]

24 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

Watch out for subtle differences in the cab roof profile if you're modifying an 08 to an earlier version - takes a while to spot at first, then you can't unsee it!  It's flatter.

You mean the 08 is flatter?  The only drawings I have immediately to hand are those in the BR Fleet Survey No. 7 and they're quite small.

[Michael Edge]

No the earlier ones look flatter, more accurately the 08 roof is more rounded to increase its route availabilty. This became more important when the wheel diameter was increased to 4'6". I was working on the class 11 and it's WR and SR cousind but abandoned it when an rtr model was announced.

[cheesysmith]

Try using the old lima cab. The errors make it almost right for the earlier pre 08 locos.

[phil_sutters]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

If you mean GWR No2 (BR 15100), we do have a kit for it - and the SR version is being developed. These are the earliest twin motor EE shunters, later GW ones were similar to class 11 with 4' wheels

BR 15100 as also photographed by Dad in 1960

Edited May 12, 2021 by phil_sutters

[Clive Mortimore]

How have I missed this thread.

 

 

Not the best photo ever but I think it is the only one where I have a GWR, a SR, a LMS and a LNER all together.

SR

 

 

LMS

 

 

LNER

 

All plastic card bodies, the GWr loco is on a Lima chassis, the SR on a Wrenn chassis, the LMS and LNER  on scratchbulit chassis. i do like a bit of pre-nationalisation "Modern Image"

[Halvarras]

16 hours ago, cheesysmith said:

Try using the old lima cab. The errors make it almost right for the earlier pre 08 locos.

 

I always thought the Hornby Dublo/Wrenn model's cab roof profile was closer to the Class 11 etc than the Lima, which looked reasonably like an '08' to me. The HD/Wrenn also had two small boxes on one side like the earlier locos, and an vacuum exhauster cabinet plus small box on the other like an '08' - back in the 1970s Terry Onslow of Swindon must have noticed this as he numbered his model 12089 on one side and 13056 on the other (I know what you're thinking, how on earth do I remember the numbers after nearly half a century? Baffles me too, I just do!)

[Wickham Green too]

16 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

No the earlier ones look flatter, more accurately the 08 roof is more rounded to increase its route availability. 

Yes, the roof curves down further at the edges - on the B.R. version - so that the lower rainstrip lines up with the bonnet handrail .......... there's a noticeable height difference on the earlier locos.

[montyburns56]

15100 Swindon 1965

 

 

 

 

[New Haven Neil]

22 hours ago, 5050 said:

You mean the 08 is flatter?  The only drawings I have immediately to hand are those in the BR Fleet Survey No. 7 and they're quite small.

 

Mike Edge and Whickham Green have expanded already on this - when you see them cab-end on, it really shows.  You can pick them out in shed scenes.  Sorry my post was obviously ambiguous.

[Michael Edge]

This is where I got to with the design, basic drawing done from GA and some measurements of the LMS/EE 350hp (12033 etc.)

LMS EE 350hp 0-6-0DE 2.pdf

[Artless Bodger]

On 18/03/2020 at 03:55, DavidCBroad said:

There are some references to war time diesel shunters being capable of 30 MPH plus. The problem was the traction motor couldn't stand the revs. I must have a hunt for sources.   [Edit   Pretty sure it was a reference to Martin Miill Military Railway near Dover and the book was a soft back A5 size which had a Dean Goods with Pannier tanks in WD Livery on the front, but can't find the book at present.]

08s also tended to suffer slipped cranks which saw their max speed progressively cut from 25 or 30 down to 15.   Its a great shame so many were built.  A decent two bogie 600bhp 40 tonner small road switcher  like the Americans used with a Soutern DEMU power unit could have saved so many branches and small goods yards, which the 08s were too slow to serve and class 20s/ 25 etc too expensive and uneconomic.

The book is Locomotives at War, by P. M. Kalla-Bishop. On page 34 he describes how LMS jackshaft shunter no 7063 suffered a burst armature (aka 'birdsnesting') inside Guston tunnel. Apparently one driver liked to show how fast the locos could go; 22mph for the LMS, 25 mph for the SR ones. The armature bindings failed at speed (Guston tunnel is on a gradient) jamming it all up solid. The loco then had to be sledded out on greased rails to daylight, so that bits of the motion could be worked out until the coupling rods could be taken down to free the wheels. Locomotives used at various times on the Martin Mill military railway, and on the Elham Valley line included: LMS Armstrong Whitworth jackshaft shunters nos 7059, 7063 and 7064, later 7062 and 7061, several transferred away on receipt of SR nos 1-3.

[Nearholmer]

A not uncommon mode of failure of the successor BR locos, usually causing bent rods.
 

Both the single-motor, Jack- shaft locos, and the two-motor locos other than the very early ones had double reduction gearing, so the traction motor armatures were/are whizzing round many times faster than the road speed suggests.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Hippel]

The East Coast drivers manual to class 08 dated 2014 says that at 15 mph, the traction motors of an 08 are spinning at the same speed as a 47 at 95 mph. 

 

Paul.

[br2975]

On 06/03/2020 at 09:32, Wickham Green said:

Certainly not unique - there were three of it ! ..... what's probably unique is the design of the rear windows to allow a good view of the ( human ) shunter in action.

 

Odd that No.2 seems to have gone for scrap in the company of a Charlie ( not surprising ) and a Black Five !

 

Must be time Judith Edge ran out of other ideas and got round to a kit of this design !!?!

From my notes;

 

26th. June, 1966                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                               

J. Cashmore, Newport                                                                                                 

4113, 4161, 5971, 6111, 6141, 6147, 6932, 6993, 7907, 7922, 15202*, 33020, 33027, 42247, 45418, 80037, 80041, 80043, 82041, 90222, 92230, 92244, 92250,

Buttigieg, Newport                                                                                                        

30833, 31858, 34033, 34042, 34103, 42082, 42103, 45113, 82022, 84002,84005, 84006,     

 

 23rd. September, 1966                                                                                                     

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                  

Cashmores                                                                                                                                 

73114 being cut up,                                                                                                                 

15202, 33020, 33027, 45418 waiting attention.                                                                            

 J. Buttigieg  (Church St. Yard)                                                                                              

84002 cut up,                                                                                                                

34042 being cut up                                                                                                               

 

I recall seeing 33020/33027 from my train, at Severn Tunnel Junction on Saturday, 30th May 1966 whilst en-route to Bath Road Open Day, but cannot recall seeing 15202 with them.                                                                                                           

[New Haven Neil]

Aha!  Browsing Facebook (sorry) I came across this superb demonstration for the difference in the cab roofs.

 

Robbed from the NYMR page, sorry I can;t recall the photographer, I hope he doesn't mind.

 

Standard 08 type on the left, earlier on the right. Subtle, but there.

 

[D410Monarch]

42 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

Aha!  Browsing Facebook (sorry) I came across this superb demonstration for the difference in the cab roofs.

 

Robbed from the NYMR page, sorry I can;t recall the photographer, I hope he doesn't mind.

 

Standard 08 type on the left, earlier on the right. Subtle, but there.

 

the one on the right looks so much wider ,it obviously isn't but the roof shape makes it appear that way

[03060]

There's hope for my 7mm Bachmann Brassworks "08" yet with it's dodgy roof profile ! 

[SRman]

7 hours ago, D410Monarch said:

the one on the right looks so much wider ,it obviously isn't but the roof shape makes it appear that way

 

Lens distortion. 

It is interesting to compare the wasp stripes at the roof corners, and their relationship to the roof shape and cab windscreen top corners.

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, SRman said:

... It is interesting to compare the wasp stripes at the roof corners, and their relationship to the roof shape and cab windscreen top corners.

Looks like the rear windows are a couple of inches higher in the earlier version ....... comparing pictures elsewhere, the front windows are too - so they have to be angled at the base on the BR version.

[br2975]

The BR (WR) version, in the shape of 15106, captured outside Radyr shed circa 1964/1965

[russ p]

28 minutes ago, br2975 said:

The BR (WR) version, in the shape of 15106, captured outside Radyr shed circa 1964/1965

 

Didn't realise any of them were retro fitted with wipers and bizarrely for any of this group of locos a full set of marker lights 

[br2975]

Another of the BR (WR) batch, 15105, again seen at Radyr in May 1965

[CloggyDog]

My friend Graham Clark captured one of the original SR trio, possibly withdrawn by this stage. I'll dig through his notes later and post the date/location. 

 

He also photographed 2 of the later Class 12s:

15218 at Ashford

 

15222 on shed somewhere

 

 

 

[Artless Bodger]

Saw one of the class 12s in the siding at Minster (Thanet), while waiting for a train to Dover around 1971/2, I was on a week's runabout ticket along with my school friend MacAulay, who was much more knowledgeable about railways than me and he pointed out the BFB wheels. Weren't the bigger wheels on the SR types to raise the cranks clear of the 3rd rail? 

[New Haven Neil]

On 26/05/2021 at 20:19, D410Monarch said:

the one on the right looks so much wider ,it obviously isn't but the roof shape makes it appear that way

 

I think the one on the right is closer to the camera.