Signalling Saltfleet - on the bench

[imt]

24 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

I far as my understanding is, an O.C.S. Panel is one switch for each signal (regardless of the number of routes it has) and one switch for each set of points, where as a I.F.S. panel has a switch for each individual route from a signal and a switch for each point.

 

Dear Agony Aunt,

 

That is precisely the OPPOSITE of what I THOUGHT Mike had said.  Though he may have MISUNDERSTOOD what I had done or in my ignorance I described it incorrectly.

 

As I understand it there are two beasts:

 

Type A which has (like a mechanical lever box) ONE lever per point and signal.  To signal a train through several point and signal levers might be moved. It is the job of the interlocking to check if it is a safe route. 

 

Type B which has NO swiches for points (well it may have to one side but not for normal operation), and for each signal it has a number of buttons/switches ONE FOR EACH POSSIBLE ROUTE from that signal which subsequent to its operation causes the necessary point changes for that route and then sets a suitable signal aspect.

 

Please could you identify which is IFS and which is OCS.

 

My panel (above) is of type B, so if somebody answers the question I will know what its proper name is.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Confused of Newcastle upon Tyne.

[St. Simon]

5 minutes ago, imt said:

 

Dear Agony Aunt,

 

That is precisely the OPPOSITE of what I THOUGHT Mike had said.  Though he may have MISUNDERSTOOD what I had done or in my ignorance I described it incorrectly.

 

As I understand it there are two beasts:

 

Type A which has (like a mechanical lever box) ONE lever per point and signal.  To signal a train through several point and signal levers might be moved. It is the job of the interlocking to check if it is a safe route. 

 

Type B which has NO swiches for points (well it may have to one side but not for normal operation), and for each signal it has a number of buttons/switches ONE FOR EACH POSSIBLE ROUTE from that signal which subsequent to its operation causes the necessary point changes for that route and then sets a suitable signal aspect.

 

Please could you identify which is IFS and which is OCS.

 

My panel (above) is of type B, so if somebody answers the question I will know what its proper name is.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Confused of Newcastle upon Tyne.

 

Having re-read Mikes reply, I'm wrong about the difference between an I.F.S. panel and an O.C.S. panel. I thought O.C.S. was another name for an enhanced I.F.S. panel, but it's not!

 

So I now understand it to be that both an O.C.S. Panel and a basic I.F.S. Panel have switches for each individual route, the difference being is that on a basic I.F.S. the route switch does not call points, it only applies the route locking when the points switches are used to call the points to the correct position. Where as on a O.C.S. Panel the route switches both call the points to the correct position and apply the route locking.

 

So, an I.F.S. panel is Type A and O.C.S. is Type B in your analogy

 

Immingham West, that Dave describes as an I.F.S. panel, is what is probably better described as an 'Enhanced I.F.S.' panel, whereby you only have a single switch per signal and the route locking to be applied is selected by the lie of points.

 

Sorry for the confusion and I have now deleted my explanation paragraph in my last post!

 

Simon

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I far as my understanding is, an O.C.S. Panel is one switch for each signal (regardless of the number of routes it has) and one switch for each set of points, where as a I.F.S. panel has a switch for each individual route from a signal and a switch for each point. I understand that the 'route setting' (calling the points) is done via the points switches on both panels, but the 'route locking' is applied by individual route switches on an I.F.S. panel or by a single signal switch on an O.C.S. panel (the lie of points determining the route being  locked). An O.C.S. panel is slightly 'cleaner' and slightly easier to use from a signallers point of view, where as an I.F.S. panel is simpler to construct in terms of the interlocking, but are slightly harder to use.

 

O.C.S. panels tend to be used where there is very little signalling (i.e. plain line with an emergency crossover) or very simple layouts (i.e. station with through lines & platform loops only), where as I.F.S panels tend to be used as panels in quite small slightly more complex areas, such as Alton on the Mid Hants.

 

 

 

 

Simon

Simon - have a look at that video of York which I linked (all the way through - it's good even if a bit old-fashioned for you ) and you'll see a really large OCS panel plus details of some of the switches in use.  Now if there is still one in the office dig out the drawing for what was called the MES panel for Carmarthen Jcn which was installed c.1985/86 - Reading prepared a detailed drawing of the (indication) panel fascia and the switches and there might still be one in the files in your office -even if the drawing was issued 35 years ago.  There's nice little description of the OCS system in 'British Railway Signalling' by Kichenside & Williams (although they didn't write that bit - I know the Signal Engineer who did write it).

 

This wiki page (sorry) also decribes OCS and IFS (under 'control Panel) -

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_control

 

There's the SRS 'jargon buster' which is really useful

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/researchJargon.php

Edited April 30, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

55 minutes ago, imt said:

 

Dear Agony Aunt,

 

That is precisely the OPPOSITE of what I THOUGHT Mike had said.  Though he may have MISUNDERSTOOD what I had done or in my ignorance I described it incorrectly.

 

As I understand it there are two beasts:

 

Type A which has (like a mechanical lever box) ONE lever per point and signal.  To signal a train through several point and signal levers might be moved. It is the job of the interlocking to check if it is a safe route. 

 

Type B which has NO swiches for points (well it may have to one side but not for normal operation), and for each signal it has a number of buttons/switches ONE FOR EACH POSSIBLE ROUTE from that signal which subsequent to its operation causes the necessary point changes for that route and then sets a suitable signal aspect.

 

Please could you identify which is IFS and which is OCS.

 

My panel (above) is of type B, so if somebody answers the question I will know what its proper name is.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Confused of Newcastle upon Tyne.

You are correct - worry not.  I think Simon got a bit mixed. up. 

 

Easiest way to describe it is as the old tes xt books did - OCS is a route relay system - i.e. it works everything in normal operation by setting a route, just like NX, which is also a route relay system.

 

In IFS a route is created by setting points and then operating the control switch for the signals - just like a mechanical lever frame as you described.  Hence it is Individual Function.  I couldn't see any 'route' switches on the panel illustrated on the previouis page unless I missed them.  Thus it would probably tend to use fewer switches than an OCS system.

[imt]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

You are correct - worry not.

 

Actually, I didn't doubt you.  My profession is different to yours, but it too is full of young tigers who have failed to learn the lessons of the past!

[Dave-5-5-7]

IFS isn't really a step backwards, more of a step sideways. IFS can come in two forms, a panel with a diagram, or as a "cooker panel" on a block shelf of a mechanical box, often when a local box has closed and it's functions moved to the surviving box. A lot cheaper than replacing the equipment. The first type was when a fairly simple mechanical box was upgraded with colour lights. Langworth, Wickenby and Holton le moor on the Lincoln to Wrawby line spring to mind. 

NX, OCS are more suited to medium to large installations, like Marsh Junc to Cleethorpes in the Grimsby area, or Scunthorpe, Doncaster etc. IECC has now superseded that. 
If you're controlling 50 miles of running line with junctions and sidings, it's far easier to push button A, push button B, push button B, push button d and so on rather than having to work out if you've set the route with switches, and then pull off. 
In the case of immingham West, it has a lot of sidings in a few miles of running line. Whilst it will get an NX panel if/when reception is replaced, at the time of installation, a panel replacing a frame was deemed more logical. 

[Nick C]

Alton 'box on the Mid-Hants has an IFS panel, and has separate switches for each possible route from each signal, up to four in two cases (the innermost homes, AT55 and AT57, with main aspects to P2 and P3, and calling-on aspects to P3 and the loop).

 

It's also got illuminated signals on the panel itself, not on the switches.

 

https://preservation.watercressline.co.uk/about/view/alton-signal-box

 

Slightly out of date as the Ground frame was removed last year, the crossover to Network Rail now being motor-worked and released by a slot from Woking, which is itself an NX panel...

[imt]

54 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Alton 'box on the Mid-Hants has an IFS panel, and has separate switches for each possible route from each signal,

 

With respect - then it is as far as I know an OCS panel.  See definitions here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_control and The Staionmasters posts above.  All this silly argument apart, I am very interested in your panel, but the photographs are indistinct.  Do you have better?  I would be very pleased to see them.  I'd come and look myself - except the boys in blue would go loco (ha ha!).

[Nick C]

13 minutes ago, imt said:

 

With respect - then it is as far as I know an OCS panel.  See definitions here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_control and The Staionmasters posts above.  All this silly argument apart, I am very interested in your panel, but the photographs are indistinct.  Do you have better?  I would be very pleased to see them.  I'd come and look myself - except the boys in blue would go loco (ha ha!).

Except in an OCS panel the points are changed automatically - in Alton they have to be set manually before clearing the signals. The new temporary panel at Medstead will, as far as I know, be the same.

 

I don't have any I'm afraid - I've only been in there once. Being outside the station it's not usually accessible to the public either.

[Grovenor]

Quote

Easiest way to describe it is as the old tes xt books did - OCS is a route relay system - i.e. it works everything in normal operation by setting a route, just like NX, which is also a route relay system.

OCS is indeed a route relay system, NX is not usually, it is (was but now computerised) a relay interlocking system but does not normally have route relays in the OCS sense, however I have in the back of my mind something about the Western having a hybrid system where an NX overlayer was applied to an underlying route relay interlocking, so you may be right in relation to the Western but not for the more usual NX systems such as Westpak etc.

IFS is, as suggested a cheap and simple system and quite suitable ergonomically in my opinion at least where there are only 2 or 3 points to be thrown to set a route. Using relays I would estimate a 50% reduction compared to OCS or NX. The ones I designed abroad we used Siemens 'domino' panels with all push button control, all actions needing two buttons to be pressed together.

Regards

[The Stationmaster]

20 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

OCS is indeed a route relay system, NX is not usually, it is (was but now computerised) a relay interlocking system but does not normally have route relays in the OCS sense, however I have in the back of my mind something about the Western having a hybrid system where an NX overlayer was applied to an underlying route relay interlocking, so you may be right in relation to the Western but not for the more usual NX systems such as Westpak etc.

IFS is, as suggested a cheap and simple system and quite suitable ergonomically in my opinion at least where there are only 2 or 3 points to be thrown to set a route. Using relays I would estimate a 50% reduction compared to OCS or NX. The ones I designed abroad we used Siemens 'domino' panels with all push button control, all actions needing two buttons to be pressed together.

Regards

The Western used its own design of circuitry ( known as E10,000 if I remember rightly.  Definitely very different from Westpak etc, and it doesn't use geographical circuitry in the way Westinghouse used it.

 

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Except in an OCS panel the points are changed automatically - in Alton they have to be set manually before clearing the signals. The new temporary panel at Medstead will, as far as I know, be the same.

 

I don't have any I'm afraid - I've only been in there once. Being outside the station it's not usually accessible to the public either.

This is in effect an interesting hybrid but as far as signal control is concerned it is OCS.  It then depends on how the points are worked and released and locked.  

 

For example on the WR there were a number of locations where NX panels - in some cases situated remotely - were used in the normal way of NX route setting to call a route but the points were worked manually by a lever frame.  Thus when a route was called the point mimic on the panel would flash in exactly the same way as it would on a 'normal' NX panel until the points were detected in the correct position and, where appropriate, bolted by an FPL.  Once the points were correctly detected the route lights would complete and, depending on the controls, the signal would clear to a proceed aspect or wait approach release and, of course, the points were route locked.  As far as the signalman was concerned it was little different from calling a route on the usual WR NX installation with the only difference being that he then had to operate the points via the lever frame.

 

Similar arrangements were used on various  other Regions in a number of 1960s resignalling schemes but I don't know how they worked in comparison with the way things worked in the WR set up.

[imt]

On 01/05/2020 at 00:05, Dave-5-5-7 said:

IFS isn't really a step backwards, more of a step sideways. IFS can come in two forms, a panel with a diagram, or as a "cooker panel" on a block shelf of a mechanical box, often when a local box has closed and it's functions moved to the surviving box. A lot cheaper than replacing the equipment.

 

Yes I can certainly see that, and an IFS may be easier for a lever box trained signaller to pick up quickly too.  The thought which had struck me was that quite a lot of "logic" in some form or another has to be behind that simple switch interface to find, prove and protect the route required.  It just seemed to me that the requirement was probably not much different to what was needed for an OCS panel - I even thought it might be more?  But all that is my ignorance.

 

I know you are a busy bloke with lots of responsibilities but I (and I am sure many others) are hoping to see/learn from what you are doing - so I for one hope you will appear back in what is after all YOUR THREAD!

 

Just as an exercise I have ahad a go at identifying the 4 routes from the Platform 1 starter.  There is the route and also the protection of that movement to think of.  I know you are not intending to do much with the TCs to start with, but the route and protection requirements there are interesting too.  I can see how I migh "program" this in JMRI but I have no idea how to do it with relays.  How about telling us?

 

 

Saltfleet routes & locking for 942.xlsx

[imt]

On 01/05/2020 at 13:04, Grovenor said:

The ones I designed abroad we used Siemens 'domino' panels with all push button control, all actions needing two buttons to be pressed together.

 

Any chance of some details.  I find it impossible to locate such information on the web.

[Dave-5-5-7]

Not much to report at the minute, it's been mainly drawing and cable running. The cables for Saltfleet area and the block control have been fed. 

 

 

and they run to a junction box, which is a good old BT301 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Dave-5-5-7

[Dave-5-5-7]

And another alteration to the track diagram. The eventual plan is to head into the garden, so the line to Mablethorpe is now in place, the holes will be left empty in a "disused" state. I've altered the signal symbols to represent a more modern style in keeping with the repeaters on the switches. 

Also displays have been added for the train describers to/from Austen Fen box. Any errors let me know. 

Additionally I've also had a go at a brass kit. It's not great, but it's not bad either. Practice will help. 

 

The first kit bit signal, MS 941, minus the Position light. It will be replaced eventually with another kit where I don't damage the wire in it. 

 

 

[imt]

It's me again.  All your GPLS are the wrong way round.  I'll have a good examine of the rest as soon as I get time.....

 

Looking good so far.

[Dave-5-5-7]

1 hour ago, imt said:

It's me again.  All your GPLS are the wrong way round.  I'll have a good examine of the rest as soon as I get time.....

 

Looking good so far.

I'd noticed that, I've also not taken off Line Clear on the last signal to Austen Fen. I also need to include another TC to Austen fen and an uncontrolled signal. 

[Dave-5-5-7]

another track diagram is on the way with another change and corrections. On a positive note, MS941 Is in, unfortunately minus the Position Light as I've had an issue building one. It'll get one at some point. 

 

The descriptions for the switches need correcting, this alteration has occurred because of a structural issue in the building of the layout. 

[Dave-5-5-7]

Owing to the diagram becoming too cluttered, switches and descriptions have been moved to the panel. I've dropped signal 939 owing to close proximity to the 937 so 937 now protects the crossing. 
The Single line to Carlton CFPS is worked by a simple switch, on a one train in section basis, whether the train is coming from or going to the PS. The single line to Skegness is based on Tokenless Block, although I've not finished with it yet. 
Unless someone picks up on an error, this should be the final draft of the diagram for the signal box. 

[Dave-5-5-7]

The design and build stage has slowed a little over the summer, a new job found me work a slightly larger railway.... 


Well, I attempted several ways to maximise the station at saltfleet but was never happy so I moved things about a bit. Skidbrooke became Saltfleet, Saltfleet is now an MGR storage and sorting yard and a line is going to run to an upper level to a bulk loading terminal at Sutton Dock. 

The TCB working to Louth is now AB, on the diagram unless I happen to find a BR Standard Block Instrument. 

[Dave-5-5-7]

Wow, right, it's been nearly 6 months since I last posted. A fair bit has gone on. There have been several alterations in the layout including a top level over the fiddleyard. Sutton Dock has obtained a signal box and a shunt panel for the sidings which have been extended. I haven't been completely happy with what has been designed up to this point. I feel I can now publish the three "new" panels. These will be heading off to the printers at the end of the month to be printed onto aluminium board. 

There is now two control stations for train control, two signal boxes, Moss Lane, an IFS panel and Sutton Dock No.2 which will be a frame. The shunt frame "ABP Sutton Dock" is an semi locked panel. It's designed so a signal cannot be cleared without the points being correct. Moving the point switches will tell the operator which signal is available. Methods of communications are to be Absolute Block between Moss Lane and Louth (fiddleyard op), TCB with train describers to Mablethorpe (fiddleyard op), tokenless block Moss Lane to Sutton Dock No. 2 signal box and telephone between ABP Sutton Frame and Sutton Dock No.2.  

Edited April 16, 2021 by Dave-5-5-7

[LNERGE]

Yelp.  Motor points without track circuit protection?

[Dave-5-5-7]

15 hours ago, LNERGE said:

Yelp.  Motor points without track circuit protection?

The ABP Sutton Dock panel? Think of it as manual points, the person operating it is effectively the shunter. It's just impractical for them to ride on the loco.... 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Dave-5-5-7

[LNERGE]

It does look good. 

[Dave-5-5-7]

and here is the final draft. I've done some tweaking. Moved the Train describer to a separate unit and added a CCTV crossing. If anyone spots anything I've overlooked just let me know. Planning to have this put onto a panel over the next couple of weeks.