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Two thoughts:

 

- The Swedish loco was, I'm pretty sure Trefot gauge, three Swedish feet, Each of which is about eleven English inches; and,

 

- if you don't have a copy of Gladwin's first volume, and can't find one, but are prepared to stand the cost of posting a paving slab in two directions, PM me, and you can borrow mine.

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An unexpected discovery and a quick question:

Semaphore.jpg.66ea982d848b7a69fef0076199bab224.jpg

What is this? Link to full image.

 

I was looking for cranes in pics from the OP whilst listening to some of the Vaughan Williams folksy goodness inspired by recent events at Castle Aching, when this eyesore caught my attention.

 

There's a lot we can directly compare and discount - it's not a mast or yard; nor a telegraph pole (to be seen further left I think); nor yet crane or hoisting gear...

 

...could it be that my idea to have siding occupancy at the back of the layout signed by (suitably dilapidated) semaphore isn't so far-fetched after all?

 

First idea was to use a shutter system, after Murray:Murray_Shutter_Telegraph_1795.png

...which is fairly simple to construct, and very simple to read. On the downside, it takes up a lot of space and is a good century out of date (and looks it).

 

The current plan is to have something based on C.W. Pasley's 'Universal' system:

RSODS-004-Fig28.gif

...which although codified in 1822 was at least in use until 1937, by way of excuse. A little more on Pasley and is relationship with the railway here. 

 

I had been under the impression that the only commercial optical telegraph network in the country ran from Holyhead to Liverpool (ah, yes, here we are), so it would have been all kinds of wrong - just nicer than blue LEDs, no? :) - but it seems I might not have been so far out. The photo is, I would say, 1870-1890 'tho captioned only "19th C". Cross referencing between the information here and period maps it should be possible to get decent resolution on both time and place. Interesting...

 

The whole idea was only a little folly which I thought might be fun, but if it turns out to be reasonably accurate I'll have to start making some proper plans!

 

Cheers all, hope you're having a lovely weekend,

 

Schooner

 

ps. Well, obviously I'm going to mention the clacks - the descriptions of which are not so very far from Murray's (or even grander 10-shutter Swedish) method

 

EDIT 2: Oh, might as well show the result of recent scuffling about in Trainz and SCARM, turning this

816689561_Annotation2020-04-19120524.jpg.e1a3ff58a088ae642460ae2e3f3d1d28.jpg

into this

101046814_Annotation2020-04-19123203.jpg.fb421479598add99e48cba89904ca749.jpg

 

An awfully long way to go, but a useful exercise. Okay, bye!

Edited by Schooner
First pass at spelling; PC modelling efforts
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" Signalling the Caledonian" by Jim Summers describes and has some good pictures of signals for shipping at Grangemouth and Wemyss bay, which was still there in 1968. These were effectively big semaphore signals on high lattice posts controlled from the signal box. 

 

That might well explain the elevated signal shown in that photo. 

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Oh, I'm an idiot!

19th-century-london-port.jpg?mode=max&qu

We're here aren't we, looking across Regent's Canal Dock (now 'Limehouse Basin') from the South-East Quay towards Stepney Junction Station? We're seeing not anything to do with the docks, but rather London and Blackwall signalling on the viaduct North of the dock! Perhaps that signalpost shown on the linked map from NLS, on the Down side, just left of the 'Lion Wharf'. Semaphore for lock entry I've come across, but not for dock movements. It makes some sense, but I couldn't work out why, if that was the case, it was only captured in one photo. If it's railway related then the mystery dissolves and poor William of Ockham is kept from revolving in his resting place. Please excuse the lack of proofs. I'll keep it in mind but confirming exact location of the photograper etc isn't a priority this evening.

 

In even more exciting news (YMMV), I've come across some almost-period info on an aspect of the Millwall Dock Railway system. Grain traffic, which the Dock specialised in and so too presumably the railway, is mentioned here. From which:

"From 1876 equipment for improved grain handling was introduced by [architect F.E.] Duckham, including about 1,300 20-ton travelling grain bins, or box wagons, on miles of new railway sidings."

Are those "travelling grain bins" what we see here

figure0369-059-c.gif 

in a sketch of the Eastern Granary from c.1883, including what looks suspiciously like a side-tank Manning Wardle, and here

figure0369-059-a.gif

in a photo of the Central Granary, looking North, c. 1900? 

 

It's not much, but it's a start, and another thread to tug at. I'm finding good pre-PLA info pretty elusive. It's out there, but my limited means of investigation (Google or bust*) struggle to grasp it. Hopefully this will help get back on track :) Looking at the buffers, it helps cement the caption on s-l1600.jpg

claimed as Millwall Dock Co. 7, of 1888, seen in 1911 - a Manning Wardle P Class? - which is nice.

 

*Today the project had it's first financial impact, when I parted with cash in exchange for a full-sized download of an aerial image from Alamy. It promised to show the South-Eastern corner of South Dock, which I dream of modelling well, in some detail. Sadly, the reason I couldn't see with any precision had nothing to do with the resolution limit on the preview and everything to do with the photo being taken in 1920s by some poor sod hanging out the side of a plane with only limited concern for focus. £11.99 I should've kept in my pocket for one of the many books I'm going to need to read...oh well, shan't be doing that again!

 

Finally, a quick update on the plans it stands tonight. Playing with a previous version in Trainz has been a) fun and b) helpful. Track plan changes stem largely from that experimentation; the realisation that two longer loops capable of holding two groups of two wagons each is more fun than three short loops; and the suspicion that even 4-wheel coaches won't appreciated sub-second-radius curves. I've got close, most of the MER is second radius or greater, save one curve on one loop which can be eased, I think. This pushed the layout another few inches 'down', but as a by-product gave space for another storage loop. Anyway, this is where I've got to so far:

161621074_Planasof20_04_27.jpg.81f41b634a8de2ed6628fd2e8623635e.jpg

Absolutely still in development, any feedback appreciated.

 

Ciao for now,

 

Schooner

Edited by Schooner
Spelling; pic of 7 added
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Those grain-bin wagons are a real discovery!

 

The use of inside frames is very reminiscent of the sort of contractors’ wagons (commonly called Manchester ship canal wagons) that must have been used during construction of the docks, so I wonder if that’s where the idea came from.

 

My surmise is that they would have been “gable bottomed”, and the different colour of the side discharge hatches hints at them being iron.

 

Im struggling a bit to see how the handling worked though: did they use screw-augers to unload ships, then the same to elevate the grain for warehousing?

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"Manchester Ship Canal", "inside frames" you say...?

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

Barton Hump, 1925

Follow image link for info :) Info on grain operations is in the previous source I think, there's certainly an internal elevation. I'll have a read tonight and get back...

 

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11 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

It's not much, but it's a start, and another thread to tug at. I'm finding good pre-PLA info pretty elusive. It's out there, but my limited means of investigation (Google or bust*) struggle to grasp it. Hopefully this will help get back on track :) Looking at the buffers, it helps cement the caption on s-l1600.jpg

claimed as Millwall Dock Co. 7, of 1888, seen in 1911 - a Manning Wardle P Class? - which is nice.

 

 

 

 

The caption appears to identify the loco correctly.  Cannot comment on date, but would need to be before 1919.

 

The lower buffers are for internal user dumb-buffer wagons, apparently used to move grain and timber.  I do not know if they included such as the MSC tippers Kevin has identified; the only picture I have seen is a 1 plank,

 

IMG_8809.JPG.b30668b4b2cedcce01e14c82cc676753.JPG

 

Millwall Dock Co. locos:

 

Primus              MW 0-4-0ST, 423 of 1873

No.2                 Shanks 0-4-0ST, 1879

No.5                 MW 0-4-0ST 727 of 1880

No.7                 MW 0-4-0ST 752 of 1880  

No.8                 MW 0-4-0ST 876 of 1883

No.9                 MW 0-4-0ST 1008 of 1887

No.10               MW 0-4-0ST 1106 of 1888

No.11              Peckett 0-4-0ST 851 of 1901

No.12              Peckett 0-4-0ST 897 of 1901

 

 

 

 

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I burrowed back and had a skim of the documents indicated by Schooner. Utterly fascinating!

 

Did you see the reference to a store shed that could accommodate vast numbers of these grain box wagons as a sort of warehouse on wheels?

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@Edwardian, I must thank you on two counts. First, the information you provided is absolutely brilliant and had elluded me for a long while. Second, it was a clear demonstration that the internet-only approach, though based on sound reason, had limitations that were frustrating me. So, this has happened:

707916926_Thethinend....jpg.e23017b2fd4aa8a0b31847203622c684.jpg

 

Peacock's P.L.A. Railways and a couple of other bits are on the way too  ...arrived this evening. I'll be sure to regret this when lockdown eases (HA!), but plenty of reading time 'till then I wager...

 

The information so far gleaned from the above, particularly Marden's London's Dock Railways, illuminates the sights around the real South Dock Station c.1880:

 

MER – pretty much as discussed. The appropriate livery seems to be with the Pear's Soap branding, which was applied "early" in the loco's life. A fantastic photo, on which it seems @Ian Rathbone based his exemplary work, previously mentioned, is in the Marden. So is this photo, also discussed aboves-l1600.jpg

which is dated 1905, for whatever that's worth!

 

West India Docks

Pre-1882: Horses. The West India's attitude to steam motive power is, by this point in the thread, well-known I'm sure. News to me was the tramcar passenger service which ran from South Dock Station into the docks proper, departing "...at 8 [sic] minutes past each even quarter of an hour...on Wool Sale days" according to a period advertisement. Most accomodating :)

 

From 1882, a single 0-6-0ST Swift (John Fowler 3807/1880):

jf%203807%20works%20photo%20mrl.jpg 

Swift managed the limited sidings at the West India Docks for a decade, until the increasing volume of traffic saw it joined in 1892 by Hunslet 235 Bee (built 1880, used in the construction of Tilbury Docks and working the quays there from 1886) and in June 1900 by Manning Wardle ‘K’ Class 663 (built 1877, also used for Tilbury's construction and workings). She was kept as spare engine after overhaul in 1903, was known to run on the MER*, and sold for scrap in 1914.

 

Swift had been preceeded for a short time by an LBSCR 0-6-0T (unknown to me so far, there's a likely-looking Manning Wardle, and a potential Beyer Peacock...?); and was relieved by an NLR 0-6-0T (also unspecifed; Class 75 seems probable, if on the large side...?) when Swift was away for servicing. On livery, I hand over to the Dock Railway Superintendent: "I would suggest a light colour because you would then see the slightest bit of dirt and so ascertain whether the driver is taking any interest in his engine or otherwise." According to the photo and text in Marden, Swift had "no specific livery" intially, and is recorded as "sombre black" under the Joint Committee (of the London and India Docks, a fore-runner of the P.L.A) of 1889. Make of this what you will! The photo above is ex-works in 1880, when the loco was due to go to Egypt, sourced from the brilliant Leeds Engine database ... which actually holds all the information I had been looking for, and which I had come across but just didn't know how to drive! Oh well, we live and learn :) 

 

Operations at the West India seem, from what little definitive I've found so far, to have been based around the shunting of railway company wagons to pick goods up from either warehouse or ship and go straight back out to the network. Those with greater experience and knowledge may well be able to glean information from the  trackwork. I’d be very interested to hear about this – I simply don't know enough to make useful punts - particularly what use the three sidings were likely to have been designed for:

South Dock Station.jpg

 

*I've been wondering about this, even before learning of Swift's passenger turns on the MER. There was some fuss about the low-weight Manning Wardle 'Specials', required by the MER to run over South Dock swing bridge (just South of the map grab, above). The Dock locomotives seem to have been fairly standard dock tanks. Small and light, sure, but nothing out of the ordinary...is there some discrepancy here, or is it consistent with factors of which I'm unaware?

 

Millwall Dock:

No need to repeat the list, it's spot on! c.1880 the stable held four 0-4-0STs (two 'F' and one 'H' Manning Wardle, one Shanks; three additional MW 'P' Class were added through the decade) as per @Edwardian's excellent info above, ignoring the Specials used on the MER (Millwall Dock Co. supplied, joint-owned and GER-operated...the petty cash accounts must have been a nightmare...).

 

To save a third posting of No.7, here's Millwall Dock Co. No.2:

 

c1930-Millwall-Dock-Company-Steam-Loco-I

 

This stud managed a large fleet of internal wagons (which as we've seen were dumb buffered, inside framed and apparently unique to the Company) around the savage radii of the Millwall Dock system. For now, I'm assuming the same locos were responsible for moving railway company wagons to and from exchange sidings, which I also assume (uh-oh) were those at Harrow Lane, and managing their movement around the site. As such, they had full buffing gear for both internal- and external-framed stock.

 

The internal 20-ton grain trucks, I think, moved grain (...Sherlock...) from ship to granary to that almighty road-rail transfer shed touched on above and seen here. That alone could handle 800 of the, if I understand correctly, 1300-strong fleet. The (additional) flat wagons were similarly used for moving timber from ship to storage sheds and yards. I don't yet know if the timber was loaded from those sites directly into railway company stock to go out to the network, however. There will be more on these wagons in the future...

 

Traffic on the line past South Dock Station will also have been significantly boosted  by the industries around the Southern Isle of Dogs: engineering, telegraph and rubber, cooperage, sugar and flour mills. Again, my assumption is that Millwall Dock Co. locos handled this traffic. I don't yet know if internal or railway company wagons were used to supply the flour mill, which might be of some relvance to the model.

 

Any required PAX service was achieved by attaching a saloon coach of as-yet unknown specification to a relevant goods working.

 

Model:

How good it is to find decent information to work from! A slight damper is that reality is the inverse of what I had in mind. I had envisioned one or two 0-4-0ST's scuffling around the 'scenic dock' which wraps around the operator, dealing with a small number of wagons, with the occasional 0-6-0T being seen running past, taking a day's lot of wagons (there's room in the yard for 12-14 per train I think) to/from Millwall and Harrow Lane. However, the layout is not intended to be a museum-piece. The history is important because I find it interesting and it's helpful for the model, but it does not dictate how I may or may not enjoy the end result! 

 

EDIT: For flavour...please see my next post, below!

 

Cheers and gone!

 

Schooner

Edited by Schooner
Edited to correct some errors, more will remain... Also, Trainz images move to a post to follow
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Yes, for a chap who claims not to be a digital modeller those look more than a bit superb to me.

 

All utterly fascinating.

 

Those funny little sidings are very odd, almost uselessly short. They look to be inaccessible once the gate from the external  ‘main line’ is closed, so only ‘shuntable’ from the main. Maybe they were for something like crippled wagons or brake-vans, even engines. I’m thinking that a ‘main line’ engine and/or brake-vans could lurk here while inbound and outbound wagons were exchanged, but (a) was there a distinction between main and shunting locos? (b) Did they need or use brake-vans?

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2 hours ago, Schooner said:

For flavour, below are a couple of pictures from the digital mock-up. Early days for this too, and I don't particularly aspire to be a 'digital modeller' in the mode of the fantastic @Annie creations, so it's to be viewed in the same sort of light as a miniature cardboard version would be.

There's certainly nothing wrong with what you've done at all and your representation in the Trainz simulator looks perfectly fine to me.  I would go so far as to say that should upload your docks layout to the DLS (Auran/N3V's Download Station) it would be very well received.

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You are all too kind, thank you! I hope you'll forgive my posting an alternative batch of grabs from Trainz here to flag that my previous post has been edited. No major changes, just corrected a couple of mistakes, a misunderstanding and added another couple of images to help things along :) Might be worth a skim re-read, but you're not missing out!

 

On the digital mock-up, it really is just that! I've found it pleasing and infuriating in equal measure, but it's been a very useful process so far. Based on absolutely zero experience of alternatives, I would absolutely recommend as part of a toolkit for layout planning! The vote of confidence is flattering, and much appreciated, if undeserved. There are a lot of things that I know I can improve, and many more of which I'm still blissfully unaware! All feedback, developmental or otherwise, most welcome. On that, some piccies:

 

192765141_Plan13thMay.jpg.8e7528c1178623707bfdf102569f0b10.jpg

The plan as it currently stands. The main visual difference between the above and the below is the lack of sailing ship model in Trainz. This is probably down to poor foraging technique amongst Trainz' downloadable assest, and is a shortcoming I'd like to rectify soon so as to check sightlines etc. Then there's the swing bridge to add, and a lot of ground texture work to do, a reconciling of ground heights, etc etc etc. As none of this improves the utility of the digital model the finer cosmetics tend to take rather a back seat, being attented to in passing according to whim and convenience :)

 

4733032_RegionalDockFlourMillCustomHouse.jpg.12978dfdac0354b415b836cddc2d556b.jpgThe 'regional' dock. Thames Barge (a very pleasing find, it's a decent model and it fits!); flour mill (very much a stand-in, research needed) and Customs House (makeshift, anyone who can face wading through the opening post of this thread will find more info, but I strongly recommend waiting till I've got a post together on the subject!).

 

127625857_PrimaryViewpoint.jpg.9bba64b1885a97dab4ce5724fc6ea848.jpg

This shows the rough limits of the 'Primary Viewpoint', covering an arc of about 120 degrees from the Customs House to the alley between Shed and Warehouse (and on, through to the clipper ship and Goods Depot behind).

 

1180070835_TransferDockShedWarehouseDepot.jpg.35b23236bae9dbf70f5e780fcd04aa9b.jpg

A better view 'down the way'. Sorry about that wireframe box. It turned up with some object or other and can't work out how to get rid of it! This view makes it obvious that whilst the steamer models are lovely, they can't really stand in for a full-rigged ship as a planning tool. 

 

 

1345615242_Yardthrough.jpg.00e4df4d2c0398963374888ea6efe56e.jpg

This last sort-of-operational image shows the MER trains passing in the storage yard. I wonder if I'm asking for trouble using the path through the pointwork as the usual route through the yard? If the layout comes to pass, significant effort will be required here to minimise risk of de-railing... Is it a reasonable approach, or should it be abandoned and instead use Loop 6 (from the plan, the upper train in the above) as the through line and use the pointwork only for goods pick up/drop off? Open to all suggestions.

 

An indulgence in some pictures just 'cos:

414388209_Rushhour.jpg.dab8b44f2fabb5954d969daa6389d918.jpg

Rush hour!

 

999932186_Poorhorses.jpg.94ad78d990ab8572d44e16c3eb4599c9.jpg

Dunno about scaring the horses, even the driver's run off! The LSWR 330 might not be entirely co-incidental...

 

Suspect.jpg.2befbf6a9e1eec245c1aeb70ab3ab852.jpg

Looking a little closer spells out one of the many, many fudges on the digital layout at the moment. I do, however, quite like the RHS background of loco, crane and masts (and wireframe box, sorry). 

 

MER.jpg.e298266ac8f418e6dcc3e4f68ee6f624.jpg

Likewise 0-4-4T Dunrobin and clone, filling in surprsingly well for the MW 2-4-0Ts. They happen to be rather fine models, which helps.

 

1855271168_Steamer-openbridge.jpg.d207e5b502f997a36cddbfa11d84e7c1.jpg

I love the open bridge on the steamer model - the creator has provided variant to cover the ship over a lifetime of 40 years or so. A nice idea well executed.

 

258499613_SignalBoxview.jpg.16a81ae086b8b5b7dde64dc7b45a7dc9.jpg

I'd be embarassed to tally the hours spent looking at this view of trains slowly (max 10mph, usually half that) trundling past when I was meant to be doing something useful on the layout...if not something more literally useful out there in Meatspace.

 

On which note, n'night!

 

Schooner

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some engines of the London and India dock co;

no.12, Fox walker 0-6-0st, built 1874, same as engines 11 and 132020-01-07-15-25-19.png.55e8acb6fa3205fa7ac0f4d4609522e3.png

 

Yorkshire Engine Co 284/1876, owners number 142020-01-07-15-25-10.png.98c8af79afd7e19215162c9aae648993.png

 

no.15, built 1884 by Falcons of Loughborough2020-01-07-15-25-30.png.6c119bd62bca9f69e78c71e824923408.png

 

no.16, Manning Wardle 905/18842020-01-07-15-27-07.png.abc2e6f2a5529a684271a8e942b84f63.png

 

no.10, Hunslet 343/1884 2020-05-13-23-41-14.png.32e3971b1f4b50f8a44f1f3b91830178.png

 

no.18, Ruston Proctor, 2' 9" wheels on a 5'6" wheelbase2020-05-13-23-44-21.png.c93289f6463ab4869b7985af44e00cb6.png

 

no.7, ex LNWR 2-4-0t rebuilt from 1849 tender loco, same as engines 5 and 6

2020-05-13-23-49-36.png.57d7ffb8907a2d8959313634d1b73327.png

will do a follow up if I come across any more

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Wow! Thank you! 

 

London's Dock Railways part 2 is already in the post, but I think I've just had a preview?! There was some crossover between the Joint Committee quays so they're relevant, and of course they're fascinating images in their own right :)

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2 hours ago, Schooner said:

The main visual difference between the above and the below is the lack of sailing ship model in Trainz.

http://www.jatws.org/ing4trainz/shipping.htm  This is Steve Flanders website and among the many models for Trainz he has made are a several trading schooners as well as a Victorian era early steam ship.  Well worth a look.

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A quick update in the form of a Happening, a Discovery and a Learning:

 

Happening

On 13/05/2020 at 12:03, Schooner said:

I'll be sure to regret this when lockdown eases (HA!), but plenty of reading time 'till then I wager...

48hrs later we slipped the berth and put to sea. That'll teach me. That'll also have an impact on time and ability to read anything, books or web. Things here are likely to slow down a bit, and I'm less likely to be able to source/link information or populate posts with images etc. Sorry.

 

Discovery

Cutty Sark, a model of which is set to feature large on the layout, brought her first wool clip to London in March 1884, marking the start of her most successful and profitable working period. West India South Dock, the focal point of the layout and its touchstone to reality, housed the wool warehouses so it is reasonable to assume this dock was Cutty Sark's berth*. Readers may remember that 1883 brought GER passenger stock to the MER (in place of the Starbuck tramcars of 1871-2), for which there are suitable kits available in 4mm. Steam motive power (Fowler 0-6-0ST Swift, as above) worked the West India Dock from 1882.

 

It seems clear that the focal date for the layout should move back forward slightly, from 1880 to Spring 1884. No major changes expected, but it's helpful to have a specific date in mind and pleasing that previous 'best fits' do in fact align. Further revisions possible.

 

*It should be possible to confirm this, for what little it matters :)

 

Learning

Taken from Thomas Peacock's P.L.A.Railways, 1952, a fascinating read which provided some valuable operational info as well as useful history. The caveats are a) period and b) location, focusing as it does on the operation of the Royal Dock group in the period leading up to publication. Much of it seems applicable however, and it's certainly better than pure guesswork.

 

This deserves a much better post than I've opportunity for now but I don't want it to slip my mind (having read the book in one sitting before returning it to protective packaging and promptly misplacing my notes). The operational gist was:

 

1) Exchange sidings: Railway loco enters Dock property, picks up a PLA pilot and proceeds to the exchange sidings. Here, the loco uncouples, picks up its own brake van and heads either to the Outward Section to take a train of imported goods (commonly), or heads back up the line light (less commonly). PLA locos take over the train, marshall by Dock group and once complete (and at the scheduled time) take the train to the appropriate area.

 

2) Local marshalling sidings: Here, the train was re-marshalled for the particular quays.

 

3) Quayside loops: Here, the train was broken down into cuts for particular destinations .

 

4) Shed/ship siding: Wagons could finally be shunted to their respective ship or shed. Shunting moves happened, as a rule, before the Docks opened at 08.00, over the midday meal c.12.00 and after work on board ship had finished c.17.00 in order to minimise interruption.

 

Simple!

 

Imported goods/outbound wagons followed a similar process in reverse to return to the network.

 

Frequent exceptions included wagons with goods for more than one ship ("offered" to each ship in order of sailing, soonest first); and 'just in time'-style shipments, the wagon entering the exchange sidings only within the hour of the ship's due sailing time. Each tended to required a special working.

 

Quickly linking NLS, sorry, I'm tempted to see 1 (fairly obviously) here, 2 in the loops here and then 3 and 4 here, firmly within the scope of the layout. So far this ties in to the operational expectations of the layout. Though a model of the Docks marshalling yards and exchange sidings would be enthralling*, I'm very happy shunting short cuts of wagons around. It looks like the described operations can be matched to the real trackplans, and to that of the proposed model layout. A win!

 

*and enervating: each day ended with c.15 PLA trains, tens of wagons each and repeatedly described as "very mixed", converging on the exchange sidings from the various docks. These had to be marshalled into c.10 outbound trains before the first scheduled departure at 17.50...lawks!

 

On 13/05/2020 at 13:21, Nearholmer said:

 

Those funny little sidings are very odd, almost uselessly short. They look to be inaccessible once the gate from the external  ‘main line’ is closed, so only ‘shuntable’ from the main. Maybe they were for something like crippled wagons or brake-vans, even engines. I’m thinking that a ‘main line’ engine and/or brake-vans could lurk here while inbound and outbound wagons were exchanged, but (a) was there a distinction between main and shunting locos? (b) Did they need or use brake-vans?

Based on what little I've learned so far: the 'main line' is West India Dock line, and so I think the gate was likely to be left open and the line could well have been used for shunting...but... Following Peacock, which feels reasonable, a railway company locomotive (+ brake van) would have been kept well clear of the Dock itself. It seems, given the solitary Swift, that there was no distinction between a 'dock shunter' and a 'dock main line' loco...unless Swift was mostly used for fetching and marshalling wagons, which were then shunted and 'spotted' by horse. The West India had got on just fine with horsepower for the decade or so since the arrival of the railway after all.

 

My current feeling is that those three sidings were for holding empties during the course of the day, and might well have been designed to be worked by horse. Any tell-tales to look out for in track design that could confirm or refute this?

 

My other feeling is that they make a snug little 3-2-2 micro-Inglenook :)

 

That's all for now. Sorry again for the paucity of references, or images to break up the wall of text. Hopefully soon...

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

 

 

 

 

Edited by Schooner
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Millwall internal wagons

 

From what I can gather, it seems that Millwall Dock Co's internal box and flat wagons have no business being seen on the layout - depicting as it does West India Dock land - as they were used solely for storage and transport (largely of grain and timber, respectively) between Millwall Dock Co-owned storage areas. 

 

Oh well, Rule 1 it is then :)

 

They're too intriguing to leave alone, and so I've come up with a wheeze to excuse them the occasional stage-bomb. From their storage sidings at the bottom, up the goods line, propelling into the 'on-scene' Dock, and round to the siding which serves a Thames barge (flats), and flour mill (box), upper right. Timber wagons, internal and railway company, can also be seen by the operator at the 'timber yard siding' on the lower RHS. The route:

312825194_Millwallinternalwagonroute.jpg.f7293771882baa3791ffe3d30ece2cb4.jpg

 

The tricky thing is that information on these wagons is pretty minimal in the books I've so far got my sticky mitts on, or online. The below is the best I've been able to do to date.

 

Box wagons

figure0369-059-c.gif

This sketch of Eastern Granary, c.1883, and 

775863.jpg

this photo of the Central Granary c.1900 we've seen before, but they are still the most informative 'overview' images I've found online. Note the capstan and rope, lower left.

 

Part of problem is that someone insists on leaving locomotives in the way:

20200525_222731.jpg.557e02161f18be1903f1263698f8e3a3.jpg

20200525_222846.jpg.7aa45ad24090dd5bfee823e70b91d602.jpg

...but at least these allow some details to be seen.

 

There were 1,300 of them on the Millwall Dock system, starting from 1876 and were I think still in use when the PLA took over the 'til-then independant company. Someone must've recorded something about them... In the absence of good information, here's some bad :)

 

Very very rough dimensions*:

Length - 13'

Width - 6'6" 

Wheelbase - 6'6" 

Wheel dia, - 2'

Frames  - 12" square,

Between frames - 2'4" (between inside faces)

 

*Assuming identical construction to the flats, @Edwardian's photo of which I've just used for some fag-packet measurements. Do they seem reasonable, at least?

 

7 plank. Rated for 20 tons. Fixed sheet bar, wooden, on external vertical supports, also wooden. Possibly iron side doors. Ladder in the ends, LHS, formed of 4 steps of bent round bar, lower two inboard and possibly mirrored RHS.

 

Modelling:

Scratch building I suspect, for which better information will be required. While getting up and running, perhaps a couple of these from Slater's could fill the void:

4042.jpg

 

To the best of my undertanding, grain was loaded into them either direct from ship or from the Central Granary, transported around the dock network and unloaded either into one of the satellite granaries or into railway wagons at the enormous Grain Depot previously mentioned. Not a glamorous life, but vital.

 

Flat wagons

Millwall-resized.jpg

This is the best I can find of the wagons in use. Again we see the vast Central Granary, but this time Millwall Dock Co internal flat wagons are loading (I'm fairly certain) sawn timber from the lighters alongside the quay. The typical movement of softwoods was arrival by ship to Surrey Commercial Docks, Rotherhithe; transfer to lighter across the river to Millwall Dock; transfer to internal wagon to shed storage; eventual transfer to railway company stock and out to the network. I'm uncertain of how typical it was for this to take place at one of the largest and most advanced grain depots in the country!

 

For detail, there's nothing better than another familiar image:

IMG_8809.JPG

 

Desperate to feel like I've achieved something today (or indeed this week, which is turning into One of Those Weeks despite best efforts), I traced out the above, took the railway gauge as my datum front and back and set about measuring. I think the process is sound, although the execution was needlessly poor. More care will doubtless yield better results, directly on-screen/digitally probably better still, but I'm uncertain how accurate the resulting dimensions could ever be. Better than nothing, but worth the bother? Any thoughts, dear folk of this Parish?

 

Although there's a lot left to learn, I feel I've got a rough idea of what these wagons were, what they were for and how they could be used on the layout. If anyone has any information on them I would love to hear it, but for now I'm going to put my investigations to bed.

 

Time to move on to buildings perhaps... :)

 

Cheers all,

 

Schooner

Edited by Schooner
Got distracted and wandered off half-way through the grain wagon use para. Now completed!
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