Salmon Wagon updates

[Phil Bullock]

17 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I doubt it's an error, the bogies are similarly compressed.

You can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc.

 

Mike.

Salmon have a complex life cycle . A small one that has only spent one winter at sea Is a grilse... perhaps these need rebranding? Good job they are not a parr or a smolt! 

['CHARD]

I was in the market for plenty of these, the black ones; to run alongside and with the rake of Cambrian Sturgeons I built several years ago.  In fact the Flangeway 'basket' was still open in a tab until ten minutes ago, containing three of each. 

 

It turns out what we're looking at is the Civil Engineer's equivalent of the Hornby 'shorty' Mk3.  Running these with a correct length Sturgeon would require suspension of disbelief akin to pretending a Hornby Shorty is actually a Mk2.  

 

I find myself wondering at what price point, if there could be one, would I shamelessly acquire a dozen of these unfortunate things.  In black, could I unsee the colossal error if they cost £20 each?  £15?  A tenner?

[Wolf27]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I doubt it's an error, the bogies are similarly compressed.

You can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc.

 

Mike.

Are the Flangeway bogies the 5’ 6’’ version. I doubt the 8’ platebacks would fit now anyway.

 

cheers

 

Shane

Edited January 26, 2021 by Wolf27

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, Clagsniffer said:

I thought we might have heard something from @Richard Barnett by now?

 

I know they're aware and investigating, please let them get on with that for now.

[pheaton]

2 hours ago, Wolf27 said:

Are the Flangeway bogies the 5’ 6’’ version. I doubt the 8’ platebacks would fit now anyway.

 

cheers

 

Shane

Paul Bartletts site does show pictures of salmons with the 5'6" bogie, it would appear that the Cambrian uses the 8' bogie, which really does trick the eye and (length aside) makes them look more inaccurate than they perhaps really are, (length aside).

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsalmon5ft

 

 

[Dungrange]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

I doubt it's an error, the bogies are similarly compressed.

You can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc.

 

It depends on the 'error'.  I agree that it looks as though the whole model is compressed, so it's perhaps more likely to be a scaling error rather than a measurement error (although it could be both).  It looks like the length of the model is around 92% of the length that it should be.  What I can't tell from the photographs that have been posted in this thread is whether the width of the wagon has been similarly compressed.  If it's an overall scaling error then I'd expect the width to also be under scale.  @Foden's earlier photograph of the wagons with decks touching does seem to imply that the wagon may be too narrow as well (assuming the Cambrian kit is correct), but the error doesn't look to be as much as 3 mm (ie the width of the Flangeway model looks to be more that 92% of the correct size).  That would therefore imply it's possibly a combination of scaling and measurement errors (ie one or more measurement errors with regards length and an overall scaling error that affects both the length, width and possibly ride height).  Perhaps any global scaling error is simply not accounting for material shrinkage as @Bearwood West Yardhas indicated - that's not something that I knew about.

 

Ultimately, as Andy York has said, we need to wait for Flangeway to investigate what went wrong.  It's certainly a very disappointing outcome for a wagon that many of us were looking forward to and the cost to Flangeway of trying to correct this will likely be significant. My understanding is that they need the profits from each model they've commissioned to finance the next model, so this will likely put a hole in their future plans (whatever they were).

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, pheaton said:

Paul Bartletts site does show pictures of salmons with the 5'6" bogie, it would appear that the Cambrian uses the 8' bogie, which really does trick the eye and (length aside) makes them look more inaccurate than they perhaps really are, (length aside).

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsalmon5ft

 

 

Cambrian do both bogies. 
 

Roy

[hmrspaul]

59 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Cambrian do both bogies. 
 

Roy

And I have photographs of both types https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brsalmon8ft and some rebogies https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/salmonrebogied

 

I would like to take the opportunity to mention that, although some of these finishes appear to be based on my photos, I have not had any direct contact with this company. The only SALMON I'm aware our Wagon Measuring Group have measured is the earlier type with the LMS bogie. 

 

Paul

[Miss Prism]

No one expects the Wagon Measuring Group!

 

 

[rob D2]

I do feel for them , if this is just a cock up , all that time effort and money expended .

[Foden]

30 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I do feel for them , if this is just a cock up , all that time effort and money expended .

 

I quite agree. It's such a shame, I almost wish I didn't know. I was very happy indeed with the model beforehand, the size issue doesn't change that the model is very pleasing in every other aspect, but as others before have noted, I cannot unsee, or unknow what I now do.

As a small supplier I genuinely hope that the error, however it arrived, was in a part of the process that they (Footplate) have some degree of comeback on.

[Matt]

Yeah and we shouldn’t judge anyone on the mistakes they make - rather on the way they respond to them. I feel some other companies have been dealt with very harshly on here when they have responded to issues as well as could be expected. I’m sure Footplate will look into what happened and advise us on way forward in due course

[russ p]

When I heard they were out i ordered 3 black ones but wish I hadn't now 

[66738]

Oh dear. I thought my 3 looked really nice when they arrived, but had some niggling feeling, that I just couldn’t shake, that something wasn’t quite right. But until reading this, I couldn’t put my finger on it. Had I got around to posing it with a Bachmann YAA (BRILL), I think the penny would have dropped but I’ve been too busy with work to do that.

Like everyone else, I can’t turn a blind eye to it now I know about it. 
Let’s be patient and see what the outfit from Kidderminster  say. 
It’s disappointing for us but just imagine what the good folk at Flangeway are feeling?

If it’s an error (Which I believe it is), they will be having Sleepless nights. 

I just can’t see it, (as it was bound to be noticed at some point) but if it’s been a conscious decision to make them short, they’ll be gutted it’s been discovered.

66738

[Bearwood West Yard]

11 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 That would therefore imply it's possibly a combination of scaling and measurement errors (ie one or more measurement errors with regards length and an overall scaling error that affects both the length, width and possibly ride height).  Perhaps any global scaling error is simply not accounting for material shrinkage as @Bearwood West Yardhas indicated - that's not something that I knew about.

I don’t wish to sound like the tradesman that ends up picking out the flaw on a forum such as RMweb and getting known for it, however I am critical of the attention to detail that occurred during the development process in the sense that 10 seconds with a steel rule has outdone what appears to be several years of hard work and development, with major cost implications to the manufacturer. 
 

When we receive new tooling, we always check dimensions from the datum (always the joint face on our tooling) against a set of re-validation sheets and the casting drawing. In this case, the tooling should be checked against the tooling CADs if no reval sheet exists, and also against the casted product specifications to determine clearance/interference.... etc to ensure the CNC shop has not incorrectly made the tooling. The tooling should always be whatever the product material’s shrinkage percentage is larger than it needs to be so that the product is made the correct size through contraction from liquid to solid. 
 

When receiving the first engineering samples of the product, these should also be checked against relevant drawings etc to make sure no faults are found. 
 

I do not wish anyone to think that I am writing this to create slander, as I am sure that Flangeway/Footplate have done everything correctly when it comes to procedure. I am just highlighting my working procedures as a tooling and pattern maker to assist those who may not be in the know to better understand what goes into toolmaking. 

 

I am in agreement with @Dungrange on his point about potential incorrect scaling in the CAD phase being down to this. It’s impossible to know if anything physical is incorrect if the drawings were incorrect from the start. These things do happen though and I’m sure it will all be sorted out soon. 

[jonhall]

8 hours ago, Bearwood West Yard said:

I don’t wish to sound like the tradesman that ends up picking out the flaw on a forum such as RMweb and getting known for it, however I am critical of the attention to detail that occurred during the development process in the sense that 10 seconds with a steel rule has outdone what appears to be several years of hard work and development, with major cost implications to the manufacturer. 
 

 

I fear that they have been taken in by the pretty 3d renderings of their wagon, rather than orthographic drawings with a few principle dimensions on them from which scale can be checked. 

 

This feels ever so similar to some of the problems that Dave-Jones-era-Dapol suffered (The ixion Manor was 8% too large in all directions, and the n gauge FEA container wagon had spigots at the wrong spacing for 20ft containers). I wonder if the same factory is involved?

 

Jon

[Roy Langridge]

Oh well, flogged my unmade Cambrian kits on ebay and have now ordered some new ones. Keep me quiet for a few hours... (silver lining and all that).

Roy

Edited January 27, 2021 by Roy Langridge

[Clagsniffer]

After much deliberation I’ve decided to return my rake of wagons. I thought long and hard if I could justify keeping them, but at the price I’ve paid I just can’t.

 

I do have sympathy for Footplate, and I hope they can get over this situation. It’s a strange situation in a way because I, like a lot of people, was happy with them as I unpacked them, they looked great. If it wasn’t for seeing the comparison pictures on here I may never have noticed. But now I’ve seen the error I just can’t look at them the same way.

 

Sad situation all round.

[Foden]

I think I’ll just wait to hear what they say before I make a decision one way or the other.

[Bearwood West Yard]

7 hours ago, jonhall said:

I fear that they have been taken in by the pretty 3d renderings of their wagon, rather than orthographic drawings with a few principle dimensions on them from which scale can be checked. 

It is very easily done. Especially in the times when you're busy with numbers in your head and all of a sudden "I've brought you a cup of tea" comes out of the blue. I can't be the only one to admit that's happened. It is entirely possible that the same factory could have been used. However, you could say that its a game of roulette with whoever does produce it, as its the capital available in the budget that dictates what facilities can be afforded.

 

The only thing the factory is involved in to do with the tooling is machinery parameters. As an example, there's no point tooling around an X21 model machine when the factory upgrades to L13 model machines with different tool mounting positions. Those machine types are entirely fictional just for the purpose of the example, though you can fit adaptor plates if you tool around a small machine and newer machines are larger. As is the case with some Disa 'A' plates we still have, little things, putting them on plate adaptors to fit onto our Disa 'X' machines. 

 

I haven't heard anything bad about the build quality so we can rule out a Hattons or Heljan phenomenon. 

[owentherail]

They maybe should mention it on there web site rather than go on selling them not mentioning anything. 

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, owentherail said:

They maybe should mention it on there web site rather than go on selling them not mentioning anything. 

 

But how many people actually care?  There is probably a large section of the market who don't really care too much about the accuracy of the models that run on their train set.  They just buy and run what they like.  Although the model is too short, that doesn't mean that it doesn't look like a nice model and would be acceptable to some.  The problem is of course the price.  For £50 I expect an accurately scaled wagon, whereas those who are content with more compromised models tend to want to pay 'Railroad' prices.

 

The problem with Flangeway putting a note on the website, is that it may put many prospective purchasers off buying these.  Given that correcting the issue will cost the company a lot of money, it probably makes sense for Flangeway to try to recover as much money as possible from this production run to limit their losses.  Yes, some of those on here will return the models and ask for a refund, but there is a saying 'ignorance is bliss' and for all those who are unaware of an issue with the length, they'll hopefully be happy with their purchase.

 

It does of course mean that Flangeway should halt the production of any newer variants until they have the basic dimensions correct, as there must be a limited market for a compromised wagon at a high price point.

[cctransuk]

11 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

But how many people actually care?  There is probably a large section of the market who don't really care too much about the accuracy of the models that run on their train set.  They just buy and run what they like.  Although the model is too short, that doesn't mean that it doesn't look like a nice model and would be acceptable to some.  The problem is of course the price.  For £50 I expect an accurately scaled wagon, whereas those who are content with more compromised models tend to want to pay 'Railroad' prices.

 

The problem with Flangeway putting a note on the website, is that it may put many prospective purchasers off buying these.  Given that correcting the issue will cost the company a lot of money, it probably makes sense for Flangeway to try to recover as much money as possible from this production run to limit their losses.  Yes, some of those on here will return the models and ask for a refund, but there is a saying 'ignorance is bliss' and for all those who are unaware of an issue with the length, they'll hopefully be happy with their purchase.

 

It does of course mean that Flangeway should halt the production of any newer variants until they have the basic dimensions correct, as there must be a limited market for a compromised wagon at a high price point.

 

If I had to guess at an outcome, perhaps Flangeway will flog the lot - returns included - to a box-shifter, who will sell them to the undiscerning at Railroad prices. (The trouble is, a bogie flat wagon is not the first thing that appeals to the trainset brigade)!

 

That would incur a very significant loss for Flangeway, but I can't see any other way to shift them.

 

John Isherwood.

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

If I had to guess at an outcome, perhaps Flangeway will flog the lot - returns included - to a box-shifter, who will sell them to the undiscerning at Railroad prices. (The trouble is, a bogie flat wagon is not the first thing that appeals to the trainset brigade)!

 

That would incur a very significant loss for Flangeway, but I can't see any other way to shift them.

 

John Isherwood.

 

I can see the number of returns actually being quite small as people unaware of the issue just don't notice. Hornby shorty Mk3s sold by the bucket load.

Roy

[pheaton]

2 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I can see the number of returns actually being quite small as people unaware of the issue just don't notice. Hornby shorty Mk3s sold by the bucket load.

Roy

Depends if there is a review coming out in any of next months mags