Ratio 48ft LMS ex Midland Suburban Brake kit

[ianLMS]

Following on from my Phoenix coach kit build; 

 

I am now working on an old Ratio kit i had in my drawer while im waiting for parts to turn up to finish my Coal Tank.

 

The model seems fairly close to the drawing in the book i have, but the moulding is quite dated and i wanted to see if i could improve it a little. 

I startwd with the sides and removed all moulded detail such as handles, grab rails and door lines. I drilled holes for new handles and scribed in the door lines using my olfa  cutter. I am using AG wheels instead of the plastic ones and im trying the original bogies. If they prove problematic i will swap them for some etched ones. 

 

On the pic to top one has the mouldings removed and door lines etched. The lower one is the original before i hacked it about.

[Compound2632]

These 4-compartment third brakes to Diagram D552 fall into two groups: 

 

With 10 ft bogies and king-post trussed underframe (per the kit), 12 built 1908/9 to Lot 696 [1]. These were formed in pairs into close-coupled four coach sets along with a third, D487, and a composite, D551. These are also represented by the Ratio kits, with the composite having the same equal-spaced 7 compartments as the first, D481. These six sets spent their lives on services over the Gloucester Loop, from New Street to Redditch, Evesham, and Ashchurch [2,3]. These sets were withdrawn in the late 40s/early 50s [1].

 

With 8 ft bogies and queen-post trussed underframes, 58 built 1913/14 to Lot 801 [1]. Again formed in pairs into close coupled sets with a D487 third and a D551 composite, or just a composite [1,2]. Although officially described as being for the Sheffield District, there is evidence that some sets went new to the Bradford area, with at least two sets assigned to Keighley and Worth Valley services [2,4]. Withdrawn late 40s to late 50s [1].

 

One of the Lot 801 vehicles turns up as a breakdown riding van in a photo of 3F No. 3260 irrecoverably sunk in a ditch at Ashcott on the Somerset and Dorset, 19 August 1949 [5].

 

This Ratio kit was the first plastic rolling stock kit I attempted, at the age of 12. The paint was rather thick and rather too bright red!

 

Refs:

[1] R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986)

[2] Passenger Train Marshalling Arrangements, 2 October 1922 until further notice (Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 00625)

[3] Own notes with reference to photographs, esp. by W.L. Good

[4] D. Pearson (private communication)

[5] S. Austin, Somerset &Dorset Joint Railway - A View from the Past (Ian Allan, 1999)

Edited May 13, 2020 by Compound2632

[brossard]

There is a great section on upgrading the Ratio MR coach kit in Stephen Williams' book:

 

https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/books/ISBN/1874103127.php

 

Fairly old so if you don't have it you will have to hunt around.

 

There's Volume 2 as well which deals with metal kits.

 

John

[jimwal]

The Ratio bogies I found rather fiddly to get assembled accurately and they can be flimsy. I have used etched bogie frame kits from MJT with the Ratio sideframes.

 

This produces a more robust unit with better riding qualities.

Just check the etched assembly is not twisted.

 

Comet Models list similar bogie frame kits. I believe they list 10ft ones, mine were 8ft.

 

MJT are on Dart Castings website and Comet is on Wizard Models.

 

 

 

 

[brossard]

Quite right Jim, Ratio bogies are impossibly fragile.  I also used MJT compensated bogies when I built a pair.  Brassmasters do similar.  Bill Bedford has some very nice bogie etches available from Eileens Emporium, can't recall if 10' are in the range.

 

John

[ianLMS]

Wow. Thank you all for the great informtaion,especially on the bogies. Although my layout is based in the NW, i am flexible with whati run and operate. Ido like the  idea of a fact based rake so will need to look out for the otherstock. Of course, that depends on how this one turns out. I am not confident with my ability to line something this intricate so it may end up being a practice piece!

[brossard]

Ian, I had some success using the HMRS LMS lining sheet.  Thankfully the MR livery is square cornered.

 

John

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, brossard said:

Thankfully the MR livery is square cornered.

 

Only on carriages with square-cornered panelling!

 

What date are you modelling, @ianLMS? That will dictate the lining-out.

[brossard]

I might have looked at the side pictured above too quickly.  Here are the pair I did:

 

 

HMRS lining and lettering.  I tried to emulate Williams upgrading methods.

 

 

Showing the coupling I used which is bent wire inserted into a hole under the other coach.  Dummy screw link.

 

I found a broken step and evidence and evidence of other breaks.  Better to use brass strip for the steps.

 

John

[Steamport Southport]

They're the Clerestories though. I thought the OP was talking about the subs?

 

https://peco-uk.com/collections/oo-coach-kits/products/lms-48-feet-suburban-coach-kit

 

If modelling the North West there was some sets in Manchester which probably roamed quite a bit.

 

One problem they do have is no compartments or seats. They really do benefit from the compartments being added even if it's just a bit of plastikard.

 

Another one who built some when I was a pre teen. I must dig them out and see if they are salvageable. 

 

 

 

Jason

[brossard]

Yes, looks like it.  Still, techniques for build and decoration are probably going to be similar.

 

I believe Ratio do a seat pack.  (Slaters and Comet also IIRC)  Mine have seats and compartments.

 

If your work was anything like mine at that age, better to buy fresh kits.

 

John

Edited May 14, 2020 by brossard

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

If modelling the North West there was some sets in Manchester which probably roamed quite a bit.

 

 

Yes, the Manchester South District sets were the first in this style, built soon after David Bain took over from Thomas Clayton as the Midland's C&W Superintendent in 1902 - although Bain continued with the square-panelled style for clerestory main line carriages for a few years, he switched to his North Eastern Railway style of round-cornered panelling and arc roof for these sets. They ran as seven nine-coach close-coupled sets, four D481 firsts, three D487 thirds, and a pair of D501 third brakes - these were the 6-compartment version that Ratio also do. They appear to have spent their entire career as fixed sets up to withdrawal, set by set, between 1938 and 1947. One first in each set was downgraded to third about 1928; one set was transferred to the Tilbury section in 1934; in old age they were being used for excursion work, one set being thus observed in  the Birmingham area in the late 1930s [Lacy & Dow, Op. Cit.]

[Compound2632]

I was interrupted by my son's suddenly-remembered online clarinet lesson. I was going to add that Lacy & Dow recorded of the Manchester sets that they had their lower footboard removed by c. 1930; this seems to have happened across the board, as witnessed by this photo of a Flatiron with an "Evesham" 4-coach set coming off the Redditch line towards Barnt Green - I think later in the 20s than c. 1924 as stated in the caption. Footboards have been retained on the bogies at the brake end. This set has been converted to electric lighting - note the battery boxes. No. 2038 was rebuilt with superheated Belpaire boiler in the second 4-week period of 1926 [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 4 (Irwell Press, 2005)].

[ianLMS]

I model late 1930s and i am used to using the HRMS transfers so might give that a go. What sheet did u use btw?

 

My layout isnt big enough for full sets, a rake of 4 or 5 coaches would be the absolute longest that i could use.

 

I also have a Suburban 7 compartment All 1st Ratio No 5711 to build so will look at the MJT bogies. But, do i go for 8 or 10ft?

 

Thanks

Ian

[brossard]

Ian, it would be this sheet:  https://hmrs.org.uk/transfers/lms-coach-lining-150338.html

 

You will have to measure up your bogies.  Those that I used in the coaches above are 10' wb.

 

Don't forget to use brass strip for steps, wish I had.

 

John

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

I model late 1930s

I also have a Suburban 7 compartment All 1st Ratio No 5711 to build so will look at the MJT bogies. But, do i go for 8 or 10ft?

 

 

Well, as you will have to remove the lower stepboard from the solebar moulding, you might as well go the whole hog and replace the kingpost trussing with the queenpost arrangement, building a Sheffield District coach. That gives you more scope for shorter sets - with the all first built as a composite (just different transfers really). 

 

In which case, 8 ft bogies at 33 ft centres (some tweaking of the floor moulding).

 

That'd be a bit different from the run-of-the-mill Ratio suburban build.

[ianLMS]

Please forgive me, as i am not very up to speed with all the different details concerning coaches erc, but what is the difference between the king and queen trussing? Looking at the photos in my historic carriage drawings book, i can see the sheffield sets have a bottom square rail whereas the truss on the ratio kit is down in a V shape.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

Please forgive me, as i am not very up to speed with all the different details concerning coaches erc, but what is the difference between the king and queen trussing? Looking at the photos in my historic carriage drawings book, i can see the sheffield sets have a bottom square rail whereas the truss on the ratio kit is down in a V shape.

 

Exactly that. The V-shape on the Ratio coaches is made up of the truss rods that meet at a single pillar (kingpost) sticking down from the centre-line of the solebar; the Sheffield coaches have a pair of pillars (queenposts) with diagonal truss rods to the solebars and a horizontal truss rod between the posts. In both arrangements there is a turnbuckle - a device a bit like the screw section of a screw coupling, only with a female thread - that is used to tension the truss rods, thereby reducing any bending of the solebar. The terminology as well as the idea is from roof-building - Wikipedia here.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Compound2632

[ianLMS]

Excellent. I will see if i can remove the one on the solebar and fabricate the correct ones. That will give me something to do for a few days!!

 

Ian

[Barry O]

This was one of the first coaches I fully lined. The Ratio mouldings were ok to line using a bowpen.  Perhaps this could be the start of the learning how to line curve.

By the way my coach was built about 1980, still has its original bogies and is passable from the "embankment" view.

 

Baz

[ianLMS]

I have ordered 8ft MJT bogies and will need to chop the ratio ones a bit to use as the sideframes seeing as no one makes 8ft MR sides. 

 

I have painted the sides Crimson, and am now going to line them. Assuming these were repainted after 1934 as i model around 1939, i expect them to be using the simplified lining.

Therefore, do i only need to line along the lower beading with a double yellow and single black line, and two single yellow lines on the top two beadings, or do i still need to line around each panel and window? The books refer to simple livery being applied to LMS coaches, and i assume that means ones originating from constituent companies as wel. 

Thanks

Ian

[brossard]

The question of whether pregroup coaches ever received simplified has bugged me for a long time.  PIII coaches came out in 1932 (IIRC) and were initially lined in the MR style.  Simplified lining came out in 1934 (again IIRC) so the majority of PIII were obviously lined that way.

 

I have never seen an LMS pre PIII coach with simplified lining and never got a definitive answer from any of the experts here as to whether these ever received it.  Jenkinson and Essery don't shed any light either.

 

By 1934, if any of these MR coaches survived, they would have been relegated to secondary or tertiary routes and would not get a lot of priority in the paint shops.

 

The war would have got in the way of the scheduled repainting program and then nationalization came close on the heels of wars end.

 

Anyway, rule 1 prevails.

 

John

[ianLMS]

I found this image from a post that Coachman put up a few yrs back replying to a similar question. Would this be a good refernce guide to follow for mine except the ends are black?

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by ianLMS

[brossard]

Ahhh, Larry is a genius.  The coach pictured is LMS.  The coaches I built also have maroon ends.  That said, to be sure you should research the question.  Black ends may have come in when simplified lining was introduced.

 

John

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, brossard said:

The question of whether pregroup coaches ever received simplified has bugged me for a long time.  PIII coaches came out in 1932 (IIRC) and were initially lined in the MR style.  Simplified lining came out in 1934 (again IIRC) so the majority of PIII were obviously lined that way.

 

I have never seen an LMS pre PIII coach with simplified lining and never got a definitive answer from any of the experts here as to whether these ever received it.  Jenkinson and Essery don't shed any light either.

 

By 1934, if any of these MR coaches survived, they would have been relegated to secondary or tertiary routes and would not get a lot of priority in the paint shops.

 

The war would have got in the way of the scheduled repainting program and then nationalization came close on the heels of wars end.

 

Agree. It's a very doubtful area. Essery & Jenkinson give close of 1933/early 1934 for the change of lining style [The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) - I don't know if they amplified on this in their later multi-volume work]. There was plenty of pre-grouping stock still in service only 11 years after grouping, to say nothing of the large quantity of stock built in the full Midland panelling style up to 1930. It's very hard to find convincing photographs. 

 

It;s something that most modellers of the LMS in the 1930s turn a blind eye to for obvious reasons. It might even be safer to leave the carriage in plain crimson lake, on the grounds that the lining is too worn and faded to be visible at normal viewing distance. I don't think it would be as fresh and vibrant as Coachman's model. 

 

A further difficult question is whether those carriages surviving in service into the 1950s were repainted BR crimson.

 

@brossard, my understanding is that fully-lined carriages always had red ends, with black lining in Midland style if the ends were panelled. Red ends were not immediately abandoned on the adoption of simplified livery - according to Jenkinson & Essery, they came in in 1936.

 

Coachman's coach there is a Sheffield district vehicle with queenpost trussing and 8ft bogies; as he's no longer with us I'll risk sticking my neck out and say that the model is wrong - when the lower footboards were removed, they were taken off the bogies too, except at brake ends. His model has footboards on both bogies.

 

Also beware that there was a complete renumbering of the LMS carriage fleet in 1933.