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New video - Did Accurascale just announce a HAA?


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16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

yes, but both Cavalex and Accurascale come with high quality pedigree.

 

 

 

They do, but regardless, we don't really want two different versions do we?   There's loads more wagons (although I must admit I have far too many already) and locos that we might like instead, class 88 anyone :)

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26 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

They do, but regardless, we don't really want two different versions do we?   There's loads more wagons (although I must admit I have far too many already) and locos that we might like instead, class 88 anyone :)

Three (inc Hornby).


A HAA is a bit of a must have model for a near 40 year era, and is only seen in rakes. So potential Demand is quite large.


In my mind Accurascale has best potential, as they have the dealer network and are happy to hold some stock beyond pre-orders. 

 

I would not be surprised if next year Hornby produce a flood of them, If it turns into a tug of war, ive already chosen my side. Perversely, the chances of a TPE 350 and a TPE 802 have probably just increased too.

 

Cavalex.. well.

 

Edited by adb968008
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Cavalex does have KMS railtec and Trains4U behind them, and they have announced a huge range of liveries and numbers right from the start. 

If Hornby announce some next year I can't see them being any cheaper than the cavalex or possible accurascale models, so they will be for the Hornby loyalists probably.

 

Tbh I am hoping they are working together in some way on this project, but there were many thousands of examples in existence, so there are worse models to duplicate.

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Three (inc Hornby).


A HAA is a bit of a must have model for a near 40 year era, and is only seen in rakes. So potential Demand is quite large.


In my mind Accurascale has best potential, as they have the dealer network and are happy to hold some stock beyond pre-orders. 

 

I would not be surprised if next year Hornby produce a flood of them, If it turns into a tug of war, ive already chosen my side. Perversely, the chances of a TPE 350 and a TPE 802 have probably just increased too.

 

Cavalex.. well.

 


Certainly a must have for many modellers and I'm very excited about having an HAA that passes muster. 

I have to disagree about the model with most potential though. Accurascale and Cavalex both product exceptional wagons, they have proved that already so I think we need to look at what has been announced. Cavalex have a model in the tooling stage, which looks stunning. They have retailers who have already said they'll have more than the pre-ordered amount. Accurascale do have a wide retailer network, but many of their models are only available to pre-order/order from them directly so I don't see your point there either. I think it's a little disrespectful to Cavalex to write them off when everything they've produced has been stunning. 

Also, Accurascale haven't announced anything. They have simply made a video with a a 3D print (by the looks of things) in the background and a cryptic line that could mean anything. 

I'm sure Hornby will respond to what Cavalex (and potentially Accurascale) do, but that won't really matter. If people want a HAA wagon that is right they'll go for the Cavalex one, if they want a cheap one they'll go with one of the Hornby versions. 

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7 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Well, the original topic appears to have disappeared off of RMweb but one can still find links to it - see the posted link to the missing topic that shows the topic was titled "accurascale-and-realtrack-team-up-to-release-pca-cement-wagon-in-4mm-and-2mm" in this 2 message link:

 

 

6 hours ago, Railfreight1998 said:

 

 

Thank you for the replies and the information. I had forgotten that their was an N Gauge PCA. It's nice to see the same models been produced in N and OO, to satisfy the wider modelling and collectable market. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

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1 hour ago, richscylla said:


Certainly a must have for many modellers and I'm very excited about having an HAA that passes muster. 

I have to disagree about the model with most potential though. Accurascale and Cavalex both product exceptional wagons, they have proved that already so I think we need to look at what has been announced. Cavalex have a model in the tooling stage, which looks stunning. They have retailers who have already said they'll have more than the pre-ordered amount. Accurascale do have a wide retailer network, but many of their models are only available to pre-order/order from them directly so I don't see your point there either. I think it's a little disrespectful to Cavalex to write them off when everything they've produced has been stunning. 

Also, Accurascale haven't announced anything. They have simply made a video with a a 3D print (by the looks of things) in the background and a cryptic line that could mean anything. 

I'm sure Hornby will respond to what Cavalex (and potentially Accurascale) do, but that won't really matter. If people want a HAA wagon that is right they'll go for the Cavalex one, if they want a cheap one they'll go with one of the Hornby versions. 

The only Accurascale model that is only available from Accurascale is one of the versions of the 37 as far as I know so it is not true to say that many of their models are only available directly. They are all available from their retailers.

 

However it is true to say they have not officially announced a HAA yet. We dont know exactly at what stage either of the 2 potential models are at. I believe Cavalex were aiming for Q3 2021 but did mention tooling. If something was in tooling now I would expect it sooner than that given its a wagon and not something more complex so that does not seem to add up.

 

And yes. I think Hornby will respond but their high spec model is almost certainly inferior to the potential new entries so they are going to have to cut the price.

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It's certainly interesting although the only one I'd be potentially interested in is DB CDA. As with the Cavalex ones I wouldn't be rushing to order them though.

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Perversely, the chances of a TPE 350 and a TPE 802 have probably just increased too.

 

How do you mean? I know the TPE 802 was sort of announced in the 2020 Hornby catalogue but given you also mention the 350 I presume it's something to do with TPE you're on about? I'd love a TPE 802, maybe not a 350 given they are being replaced and wrong side of the country too for me really.

 

5 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

They do, but regardless, we don't really want two different versions do we?   There's loads more wagons (although I must admit I have far too many already) and locos that we might like instead, class 88 anyone :)

 

Maybe not but I'd say it depends where they are at in the development (IF they are actually developing it) as to whether they cut their losses or start a fight.

 

And I'd be far more interested in an 88, or some other modern wagons than MGR/CDA wagons, so I do agree with you that there would be better things for them to do.

 

2 hours ago, richscylla said:

I think it's a little disrespectful to Cavalex to write them off when everything they've produced has been stunning. 

 

I think the issue will be, if there is actually a competition, will be the pricing. If people are wanting 20, 30, 40 of these then even a couple of quid cheaper makes a decent saving for what may be very little/no detriment elsewhere.

 

I'd hazard a guess that AS will be cheaper (based on experience of what they charge) and then would do a bulk pack making cheaper still, and I hope nobody thinks I am being off hand here as the evidence suggests it. And I aren't suggesting the Cavalex ones are dear at £30, they are more than I'd like to spend on a wagon that size but if I wanted them I'd pay it, and they look a bargain vs the £24 or whatever Hornby RRP theirs at.

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10 hours ago, TomScrut said:

I

How do you mean? I know the TPE 802 was sort of announced in the 2020 Hornby catalogue but given you also mention the 350 I presume it's something to do with TPE you're on about? I'd love a TPE 802, maybe not a 350 given they are being replaced and wrong side of the country too for me really.

I was thinking more from the competitive responses by the others.

Accurascale have taken a mostly empty niche in the market, which is partly why they are going great guns, but they are nibbling on the edges of others.

 

Recent moves will awaken sleeping giants, and in the short term the fastest & cheapest responses I see is reliveries on the class 350 from Bachmann and 802 from Hornby, which both attacks and rides on the back of what Accurascales trying to do.

 

I’m pretty certain a competitive reaction will occur, even if its just down to lack of imagination and do think the others are on the back foot but, equally I think they may not bother to jump in with both feet either.

 

As for Cavalex, best of luck to them. Nothing wrong with their wagons, But I favour the Accurascale HAA if this becomes a dog fight.

 

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18 hours ago, adb968008 said:


A HAA is a bit of a must have model for a near 40 year era, and is only seen in rakes. 

 

Since when ? HAA’s were seen as singles in speedlink trains and as cripples going around the network. A quick scan of books and YouTube would show that. 

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1 minute ago, Dan Griffin said:

Since when ? HAA’s were seen as singles in speedlink trains and as cripples going around the network. A quick scan of books and YouTube would show that. 

 

I think the point is that *most* people wanting these will be wanting several of them to go in MGR trains, they were used for a long time and therefore the market for them will be reasonably big.

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My opinion.

 

Oh no not again!  Two excellent manufacturers going head to head.
 

There is only a certain market size for a high fidelity HAA with variants.  As Hornby models have been around for very many years, this will have a limiting effect on sales.

 

Both Cavalex and Accurascale will lose out if they go head to head.  For the best commercial reasons, one should step back and focus on something else.

 

That’s my two penneth worth!

 

 

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1 hour ago, mevaman1 said:

My opinion.

 

Oh no not again!  Two excellent manufacturers going head to head.
 

There is only a certain market size for a high fidelity HAA with variants.  As Hornby models have been around for very many years, this will have a limiting effect on sales.

 

Both Cavalex and Accurascale will lose out if they go head to head.  For the best commercial reasons, one should step back and focus on something else.

 

That’s my two penneth worth!

 

 

But how does anybody decide who should step back?  As Fran has siad a company passes a point of no return, literally, once it has invested in tooling because that is when the big money starts to be spent.  So who in this case will be the one to write off tens of thousands of £s with nothing to show for it?  On the other hand they could go forward and spend, proportionally, not many more £s to actually produce models which will bring in a financial return which should help to cover, if not recover, the tens of thousands which had been spent anyway.

 

Yes the share of the cake - assuming the size of said cake is constant - would then be split between two concerns (three if you count Hornby) rather than one bringing a new hi-fi model to market.  But how do you stop duplication happening?  If not actually wholly illegal it is certainly legally questionable for competing manufacturers to agree plans with each other which involve them 'sharing' projects between them.  So any attempt at all would have to bear the law in mind for a start.  And just look how upset some get if somebody else announces what they consider to be 'their' model.

 

Do we perhaps appoint a new sort of Model Railway Clearing House which 'registers' manufacturers/commissioners interests - and would that be legal?  The only real alternative is to do what is constantly criticised by many on RMweb and announce your intention to produce a whatever and then be held up to ridicule, or heavily criticised, for not then brining it to market for X number of years. Just look at the moans in that vein in some RMweb threads but it is really the only logical alternative and I suppose it does give us, the end customers, an opportunity to save up with need for no more than a jar on the mantelpiece for £1 coins (there you are, even more ridicule).

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37 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Do we perhaps appoint a new sort of Model Railway Clearing House which 'registers' manufacturers/commissioners interests - and would that be legal?  The only real alternative is to do what is constantly criticised by many on RMweb and announce your intention to produce a whatever and then be held up to ridicule, or heavily criticised, for not then brining it to market fo X number of years.  just look at the moans in that vein on some RMweb threads but it is really the only logical alternative and I suppose it does give us, the end customers, an opportunity to save up with need for no more than a jar on the mantelpiece for £1 coins (there you are, even more ridicule).

 

We could introduce a democratic system where at the start of the year, a wish list, digs up the top 20 most items for each category (locos, wagons, coaches).

Manufacturers then state which items they will be interested in doing from that list (sorry, other items not allowed) and then have a period to define their spec and projected price.

People then vote between competing manufacturers to choose who will produce what. Note: a manufacturer needs to consider the resources they have and it will be against the rules to bid on everything. They will be limited to 5 items in each category except the market leaders whom will have ten. 

The winners have 18 months to produce the model, after which someone else may be allowed to take up the challenge.

 

(all the above is a joke of course).

 

 

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10 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

We could introduce a democratic system where at the start of the year, a wish list, digs up the top 20 most items for each category (locos, wagons, coaches).

Manufacturers then state which items they will be interested in doing from that list (sorry, other items not allowed) and then have a period to define their spec and projected price.

People then vote between competing manufacturers to choose who will produce what. Note: a manufacturer needs to consider the resources they have and it will be against the rules to bid on everything. They will be limited to 5 items in each category except the market leaders whom will have ten. 

The winners have 18 months to produce the model, after which someone else may be allowed to take up the challenge.

 

(all the above is a joke of course).

 

 

Fortunately Ferrari aren't involved on model railways.  Of course we could appoint a single person to make the decisions and act as a clearing house and as I suggested it then it should obviously be me.:jester:

 

(Sorry Fran this was meant to be a serious thread but - small(?) hint - it's years since I tasted any of that very nice genuine Dublin Guinness ;) )

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It’s a difficult one . I don’t think you can share information as it’s technically illegal . It maybe that with something like an HAA there is actually enough of a market for two high spec models .  As to not announcing something until it’s in production , well that’s not really happening is it . But it’s not Accurascale or Cavalex that have brought the system into disrepute , let’s face it it’s Bachmann  with 6 year gestation periods ( class 90 , 94XX etc) still don’t know if they are producing a new Turbostar or not .  The guys here at least announce something and are working on it . 

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9 minutes ago, Legend said:

It’s a difficult one

 

It definitely is. But when all's said and done there is too much monopolisation on certain classes etc. in this market as it is IMO, where there is a long established model which is good enough for people to buy yet actually everyone thinks it should be better than it is yet tooling anew against it would probably be very difficult.

 

Hornby's HST for example, I don't think anyone will say it's anywhere near perfect but I think it would be a risky decision tooling a new HST up to compete with it. Unfortunately that means we are left with a shape that's not quite right (IMO) and obsolete lighting functionality. Hornby probably won't upgrade the tooling or lighting if people are buying it, but it's good enough for people to buy as opposed to not having one.

 

I know that the market here in the UK isn't big enough for multiple offerings of every class but having competition does tend to favour the customer. Notice how a load of money was slashed off the Bachmann 66 when the Hattons one came along? Wouldn't surprise me if the same happened with their 37 soon in light of "somebody else's" coming on the scene.

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