Triang Hornby smoke element

[Ruffnut Thorston]

@Gerrard
 

1. Yes, the wire is a spiral with the ends inside the brass, or tinned brass, caps.

 

2. From the photos, I would say 4 or possibly 5 turns. I’ll have to look at an actual element...none to hand just now.

 

 

EDIT: 

 

Looking at elements, it varies between 3 and four visible turns between the end caps.

 

I would say four turns is most likely, the end caps covering most of one turn in those shewing three turns.

 

3. A job for someone?

4. Dimensions. I would have to measure one, none to hand just now.

 

EDIT:

 

There appear to be at least two types of end cap.

 

One type has two splits and is otherwise round.

 

The, presumably later, type is crimped into place, and has flats where the crimp took has squeezed the round end cap. 
 

The later type have been seen in plain brass or plated brass, tinned? 
 

Earlier split end caps:-

 

Length over end caps 11mm.

 

Diameter over end caps 3.5 to 4mm.

 

 

Later Crimped type:-

 

Length over end caps 11mm.

 

 

Diameter over end caps 4mm.

 

 

There appears to be a layer of a fire retardant material on the later type.

 

This is usually a variety of shades of red to pink on the new ones I have seen.

 

 

 

5. The X.549 element core from a broken example that I have seen had a hollow ceramic core. I am certain that it was always empty.

 

EDIT:

 

I have looked up a broken element.

 

This has the split end caps.
 

The core is solid.

 

It seems to be 3mm in Diameter.

 

 

 

Additional:

 

There is often a brass plate with two holes under the actual smoke unit, between the unit casting and the locomotive chassis block.

 

One hole is around the unit to chassis block fixing screw.

 

I think that the purpose of this was to both improve electrical conduction between the unit and chassis block, and possibly as a distance shim, to improve the meshing of the SS unit air pump driving gear on the loco motor worm.

 

 

@33C

 

That’s all very well, but watch out that the baby oil doesn’t damage the heating element....

 

Proper smoke oil is easily available...

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Added photos and corrections

[melmerby]

I had a 28XX with a (non synchro-)smoke unit.

First time I operated it smoke came out the chimney, but it never happened again.

I assume it was a Seuthe type unit when I checked with a multimeter it was open circuit.

Failed on first use. (I've still got the oil)

[andyman7]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I had a 28XX with a (non synchro-)smoke unit.

First time I operated it smoke came out the chimney, but it never happened again.

I assume it was a Seuthe type unit when I checked with a multimeter it was open circuit.

Failed on first use. (I've still got the oil)

The later (post-1981) smoke units weren't Seuthe, they were a Margate made device. I never found them particularly reliable and it is probably just as well your 28XX one failed as they had a habit of melting the smokebox.

[locomad2]

9 hours ago, 33C said:

Ordinary Johnson's baby oil is a very effective smoke oil !  

Boots sell a "non scented" version works well too

 

I've about a dozen smoke units unless the grandkids want to use the,  remove the heater and often the pump as they double the amperage needed. Once had 4 going at once pollution was dreadful just like the real thing for those who remember 

[melmerby]

12 hours ago, andyman7 said:

The later (post-1981) smoke units weren't Seuthe, they were a Margate made device. I never found them particularly reliable and it is probably just as well your 28XX one failed as they had a habit of melting the smokebox.

It was R2464 from 2006, later even the firebox glow bulb failed.

I actually thought the body looked OK and would benefit a proper loco drive chassis.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Like the original type B12, the China made versions of the original 28XX perpetrated features from the Margate models long after such features had been deleted from other models.

 

In the case of the B12, it was the sound box in the tender.

 

In the case of the 28XX this was the plastic smoke unit, and the firebox glow feature.

 

I have edited my post about the smoke elements above. Now improved, with added information and photos! 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo

[Gerrard]

21 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

@Gerrard
 

1. Yes, the wire is a spiral with the ends inside the brass, or tinned brass, caps.

 

2. From the photos, I would say 4 or possibly 5 turns. I’ll have to look at an actual element...none to hand just now.

 

 

EDIT: 

 

Looking at elements, it varies between 3 and four visible turns between the end caps.

 

I would say four turns is most likely, the end caps covering most of one turn in those shewing three turns.

 

3. A job for someone?

4. Dimensions. I would have to measure one, none to hand just now.

 

EDIT:

 

There appear to be at least two types of end cap.

 

One type has two splits and is otherwise round.

 

The, presumably later, type is crimped into place, and has flats where the crimp took has squeezed the round end cap. 
 

The later type have been seen in plain brass or plated brass, tinned? 
 

Earlier split end caps:-

 

Length over end caps 11mm.

 

Diameter over end caps 3.5 to 4mm.

 

 

Later Crimped type:-

 

Length over end caps 11mm.

 

 

Diameter over end caps 4mm.

 

 

There appears to be a layer of a fire retardant material on the later type.

 

This is usually a variety of shades of red to pink on the new ones I have seen.

 

 

 

5. The X.549 element core from a broken example that I have seen had a hollow ceramic core. I am certain that it was always empty.

 

EDIT:

 

I have looked up a broken element.

 

This has the split end caps.
 

The core is solid.

 

It seems to be 3mm in Diameter.

 

 

 

Additional:

 

There is often a brass plate with two holes under the actual smoke unit, between the unit casting and the locomotive chassis block.

 

One hole is around the unit to chassis block fixing screw.

 

I think that the purpose of this was to both improve electrical conduction between the unit and chassis block, and possibly as a distance shim, to improve the meshing of the SS unit air pump driving gear on the loco motor worm.

 

 

@33C

 

That’s all very well, but watch out that the baby oil doesn’t damage the heating element....

 

Proper smoke oil is easily available...

 

 

 

Thanks Ruff, very kind to provide all that detail.

 

[roythebus1]

Resistance wire, like wot they use in electric fires.

[Gazbo]

Mine is still installed - but dead. I also wondered about nichrome for a DIY repair.  all I would need to know it the wire diameter, and number of turns (Exposed between the caps - the unexposed are irrelevant) and I would have a bash. I see no reason why a coil could not be externally wound around the dead element,and perhaps externally soldered to each of the cap sides, so long as all the visible/exposed exiting nichrome wire was first removed, to avoid any possible shorting issues. (I could maybe mic the existing wire, to see what wire size/gauge it was .)Vape elements are an intriguing idea. I suppose that depends what power rating they are run under, as compared to ours? 

Mmmm. it's a thought !

Edited May 23, 2021 by Gazbo

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Hi Gazbo.

 

All the information I have regarding the X.549 Synchrosmoke elements is in my earlier post on this thread.

 

Good luck with your project. 
 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo

[5050]

I've got an unused unit complete with element that I removed MANY years ago from a loco, probably a Pannier.  Any use to anyone for the price of postage?  I may even have the gear and piston somewhere squirreled away in case it became 'useful' for something.

[boxbrownie]

Looking at the smoke element, does it sit in the smoke fluid (in a shallow bath for example)?

 

If so maybe a “fused/failed” domestic plug fuse would work with some resistance wire wrapped around from each end?

 

Or does the inner “glass/fibre” core need to soak up the fluid?

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I used to have hours of fun with the syncrosmoke as a kid. But after seeing the damage it can do to the loco body around the chimney area I took them all out.

[GoingUnderground]

5 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Looking at the smoke element, does it sit in the smoke fluid (in a shallow bath for example)?

 

If so maybe a “fused/failed” domestic plug fuse would work with some resistance wire wrapped around from each end?

 

Or does the inner “glass/fibre” core need to soak up the fluid?

Almost all my Triang locos with smoke have the Seuthe unit. The only Synchrosmoke unit that I can recall seeing was in my brother's 57xx pannier, and IIRC, the element sat in the white stuff. In fact, thinking about it, it would have to or there wouldn't be any direct contact between the smoke oil and the heating element. It was lack of oil that caused the elements to burn out, which always struck me as the "achilles heel" of the synchrosmoke units.

 

With the Seuthe units the problem was forgetting to put your finger over the chimney when you turned the loco upside down and the smoke pipe dropped out, never to be seen again. They never seemed to work so well without the smoke pipe. Does anyone know if you can get replacement smoke pipes. I suspect that ther must be an appropriate diameter hypodermic needle that could be trimmed down and profiled to the right length and shape if all else fails. 

 

I can't see the body of a standard domestic plug 3/5/10/13 amp fuse being suitable for a replacement Synchrosmoke element/cartridge, it is simply far too long and the diameter is much larger than the original cartridge. There are some smaller 1 amp plug fuses around, as used in older designs of shaver adapter plug, but without digging out the fuse from such a plug and a loco with synchrosmoke to check, I still think that they'd be too long and the diameter would still be larger than the original element. Even if the diameter wasn't a problem, cutting them to length might be difficult.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

 

 

I can't see the body of a standard domestic plug 3/5/10/13 amp fuse being suitable for a replacement Synchrosmoke element/cartridge, it is simply far too long and the diameter is much larger than the original cartridge. There are some smaller 1 amp plug fuses around, as used in older designs of shaver adapter plug, but without digging out the fuse from such a plug and a loco with synchrosmoke to check, I still think that they'd be too long and the diameter would still be larger than the original element. Even if the diameter wasn't a problem, cutting them to length might be difficult.

I wasn’t sure of just how small the original unit is, as you say there are smaller (physically) fuses available but most of the miniature fuses are glass bodied rather than ceramic, although it might still work with the appropriate wire wrapped around the body, as from your description it appears it is the wire in the fluid which works rather than the fluid “soaking into” the glass* woven tube.

 

*or whatever it is

[Ruffnut Thorston]

There were smaller fuses, designed for MK fused 5 Amp type round pin plugs... 

 

These are probably the same as used in the shaver adaptors...

 

The dimensions of the X.549 elements are in my post above...

 

The Synchrosmoke units contain a fibre wadding, that retains a supply of smoke oil.

 

The element is on top of, and in contact with this wadding.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo

[GoingUnderground]

15 hours ago, Piston said:

What made the '60's Seuthe smoke oil smell so nice ? Like a fine incense.

The sachets came with a small glass funnel which fitted down the loco's funnel.

I'm afraid that I've long forgotten the smell of the Seuthe smoke from the early 1960s, but I do recall that it wasn't an unpleasant odour. The funnels supplied with the Triang locos equipped with the Seuthe smoke units were black plastic, or at least the one that came with my Princess Elizabeth was.

 

One thing that used to niggle me was knowing how many drops of oil you needed as you had no idea how full the Seuthe unit was, and the same must have applied to the Synchrosmoke units as well.

Edited May 25, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The very first filling device supplied was a glass pipette, of the type used in laboratories.

 

These were really too tall, and not very funnel like.

 

 

The plastic funnels later supplied, are available in different colours.

 

These are dished on the longitudinal, so are readily recognised.

 

 

The last Hornby plastic smoke units had a plastic syringe, with a bent plastic pipe attached, to get the smoke oil into the unit.

 

 

Also, see here...

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Link added..l

[GoingUnderground]

5 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The very first filling device supplied was a glass pipette, of the type used in laboratories.

 

These were really too tall, and not very funnel like.

 

 

The plastic funnels later supplied, are available in different colours.

 

These are dished on the longitudinal, so are readily recognised.

 

 

The last Hornby plastic smoke units had a plastic syringe, with a bent plastic pipe attached, to get the smoke oil into the unit.

 

 

Also, see here...

 

 

Apologies Ruffnut, as you are the "go-to" authority on most things Triang, but are you sure about the first funnel being glass?

 

I do have memories of there being a glass funnel, but of it coming with a later loco, possibly with one of my brother's locos , the B12, "Winston Churchill" or "Flying Scotsman". The funnel that came with my Princess Elizabeth was definitely black plastic, and it was our first loco with smoke as my brother is 7 years younger than I. Also your 1961 service sheet shows the plastic funnel and "gelatine like" smoke oil capsule as I remembered it, whereas the glass funnel and plastic smoke oil sachet in your picture came later, IIRC.

 

I can recall going with my parents to the toy shop, Marshalls, in our High Street to buy the loco, it was my birthday present, and the thing that I remember most is the proprietor saying to me "Princess Elizabeth, with smoke!" which surprised me as I only had the 1959 5th edition catalogue and didn't know in 1961 that Triang steam locos now had smoke.

 

Sadly Marshalls is long gone, but 60 years later I still have my Princess Elizabeth, with some of the black paint round the funnel missing where it was dissolved in the following years by the smoke oil as it raced round the tail-chaser layout in our loft with the Pullmans in tow, and my EM2 "Electra" with a rake of maroon coaches following on the other side of the layout.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Well, it is possible that I am mistaken in the chronology...

 

The service sheet is from May 1961.

 

Seuthe smoke unit fitted locos were officially available from January 1961.

 

I would expect manufacturing of the Seuthe type chassis locos to have started in December 1959.

 

My reasoning is that a glass pipette is a dangerous thing to have as a part of a toy. Therefore I would think that it was quickly replaced by the plastic funnel.

 

But stock already at dealers would possibly not be recalled, and so the glass pipettes would still be out there?

 

I seem to recall that there is no mention of the glass pipettes in Pat Hammonds books?

 

Our books aren’t to hand just now. 

 

I was quite surprised to find a quantity of the glass pipettes in the parts we inherited from a retired Tri-ang Service Dealer. I hadn’t known of them before then.

[GoingUnderground]

My Princess Elizabeth would have been bought literally 60 years ago, almost to the day. Marshalls was a traditional toy shop selling all kinds of toys, so didn't have had a large stock. The model railway items were kept on shelves at the back of the shop in the space below the stairs up from the shop floor to the flat above. Sometimes I went in there wanting to buy one of the more obscure items from the Triang Railways range only to be told "Sorry we don't stock it as there's no demand for it". All this suggests to me that my Princess would have been from the first run of locos with smoke and may have been made before the May '61 Service Sheet was published.

 

I agree that a glass funnel would have been a very strange item to include, but it's easy to say that with hindsight. Glass items were included in some kids toys. I had a chemistry set that had a bunsen burner and a small glass flask, and I think that the various chemicals might have been in glass test tubes. Bayko with its steel rods sticking up rigidly from the hard plastic base could have done serious damage if a child tripped and fell face first onto the rods. The track cleaning fluid supplied with the R.344 Track cleaning car was a chemical like Thawpit (carbon tetrachloride) which is nowadays regarded as carcinogenic. What was acceptable then isn't acceptable now. And I do have memories of a glass funnel like the one in your photo. But I cannot be absolutely certain that it came with a loco as it was all nearly a lifetime ago.

 

If the glass funnels came with locos it wouldn't have been with the Seuthe units as the size of the end of the glass funnel would have made it difficult to make sure that the end of the funnel was correctly located into the top of the Seuthe unit, whereas the end of the plastic funnel would have fitted better.  

 

I'm afraid that almost all of my and my brother's Triang Railways gear from the 1960s are currently in deep storage so I can't dig them out to check if there is a glass funnel in the box with one of his steam locos.

[BernardTPM]

I'm pretty sure I remember the glass tube, probably came with my 3F jinty somewhere around 1964/5 at a guess. There were glass test tubes in my Chemistry set too, of course.

[boxbrownie]

11 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

The track cleaning fluid supplied with the R.344 Track cleaning car was a chemical like Thawpit (carbon tetrachloride) which is nowadays regarded as carcinogenic..

Oh yes, I remember that now, the smell of it......whether or not it cleaned the track didn’t matter after a few sniffs 

[GoingUnderground]

11 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

I'm pretty sure I remember the glass tube, probably came with my 3F jinty somewhere around 1964/5 at a guess. There were glass test tubes in my Chemistry set too, of course.

64 or 65 would probably mean that the Jinty had Synchrosmoke, which fits with my admittedly vague recollection that the glass funnels were supplied with locos fitted with Synchrosmoke.

 

Without a synchrosmoke loco in front of me, I have a vague memory of the opening in the top plate of a Synchrosmoke unit through which the smoke was emitted, and the smoke oil went in, being of a smaller diameter than the top of a Seuthe smoke unit, which might have made it harder to locate the end of the plastic funnel correctly in to the opening. A thin walled glass tube could have a smaller external diameter than a plastic tube with the same interior diameter, making it slightly easier to locate the slimmer glass one into the Synchrosmoke opening. But I fully accept that I may be wrong. And proving the point one way or another will be difficult.

 

The problem is that the funnels, whether glass or plastic, are inclined to get separated from the locos with which they were supplied, and when the loco gets boxed up for sale on ebay or the like, the funnel is unlikely to be reunited with its loco, especially if the boxing up was done in a hurry, or by a relative of the loco's owner who may not know that the loco had smoke and that there should be a funnel with the loco.

 

There was a slight problem with the plastic funnels in that the smoke pipe in the Seuthe units got hot, no surprise there, and could soften the end of the plastic funnel if it was inserted into the chimney immediately after the loco came to a halt and touched the smoke pipe. My funnel has a small indentation in one side where this happened.

[GoingUnderground]

On 24/05/2021 at 23:29, Piston said:

What made the '60's Seuthe smoke oil smell so nice ? Like a fine incense.

The sachets came with a small glass funnel which fitted down the loco's funnel.

Rooting around for some bits and pieces last night I came across a copy of the English language version of the Seuthe product leaflet for 1961/62. According to the leaflet:  "No. 101 Box of 6 Capsules Smoke Liquid of the odors Pine, Eau de Cologne, Lavender and Citron". There didn't seem to be any choice, you got whatever was in the box apaprently. The box was priced at 7/6 (37.5p) whilst individual capsules were 1/3 (6.25p) from this particular retailer, Continental Models of 4 Castle Street, Clitheroe, Lancs. Whether Triang used just one of the Seuthe aromas or brewed their own, or what you got depended on what went in the box with your loco is probably now lost in the mists of time.

 

Incidentally the Seuthe leaflet shows a German late 1950s style over-track signal tower/cabin fitted with an electrically powered  automatic smoke oil refill pump. You just drove the loco through the tower and the smoke oil was replenished, as the leaflet says "Pump automatically refills smoke liquid into locos while passing.". Or you could buy the cabin and refill pump separately. It wouldn't have worked with Triang locos as the Seuthe unit always had to be clear of the loco body and chimney to avoid melting the plastic. If it was possible to use automatic filling with plastic bodied locos then I'm sure that the guys in Margate would probably have produced a UK variant of the Seuthe model.  But I can believe that it would have worked well with Maerklin locos of the period as they would have had metal bodies so keeping the smoke unit clear of the body and chimney wouldn't have been an issue.

Edited May 27, 2021 by GoingUnderground
Added details.