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Building The 1947 Great Western TPO


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  • RMweb Gold

I have finally built up the nerve to make a start on my Hammond kits that will form the bulk of my Penzance TPO.  So far I have removed the L23 from the fret and folded up one of the sliding door units

 

My plan is that I will use this as a former to keep checking the profile of the side as I form it.  (This is by far the aspect of the build that most concerns me, and is the main reason that having had the etches for over a year now I still haven’t started.)

 

before starting I wanted to check the ends, matching the door unit to the top of the side on the end the tumble home is a completely different profile. 

image.jpg.7a029246c62e2a62e662f19962d8f117.jpg
 

image.jpg.ae954130e821037e688f6e7e8040e5e1.jpgI then checked with the L21 etches and it’s exactly the same situation, was the L22.

 

I have a feeling that the ends are wrong, if you align the door unit with the bottom of the buffer beam the profile is a match.  So it looks like the tumblehome on the ends starts 5mm or so too low on the end (or the profile of the door units are all wrong)

 

can anyone who has built one point me in the right direction? 

Edited by The Fatadder
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Is the half etched line on the end where the floor sits? If it isn't, see where the floor fits against the end. I've had a good look on the net and can't see who took the range. I've never built any of these so really haven't got anything to add. Were it mine I'd form the tumble home on the sides and see what happens. There may be oppourtunities to add something to the door to account for the difference. It's probably going to take some adding brass and filing to shape.

Good luck

 

Mike

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  • RMweb Gold
4 minutes ago, Mike G said:

Is the half etched line on the end where the floor sits? If it isn't, see where the floor fits against the end. I've had a good look on the net and can't see who took the range. I've never built any of these so really haven't got anything to add. Were it mine I'd form the tumble home on the sides and see what happens. There may be oppourtunities to add something to the door to account for the difference. It's probably going to take some adding brass and filing to shape.

Good luck

 

Mike

The half etched line on the ends is the joint between the buffer beam and the end so the half etch faces outwards.

 

I have used some scrap brass to knock up a test piece (useful tumblehome forming practice at any rate).  Comparing this with prototype photos I think the end is right as they do look very flat in profile so the issue would be with the door units.  Though I’m now wondering if the door sides are not actually square but slightly angled hence the different profile.  I took a ton of detail photos at didcot on the reweb visit the other year, but none clearly show the shape of the door / side interface.   (The other door for the collecting gear is very clearly angled )

 

I think I will do as you suggest and form the sides to match the ends, and tighten the radius of required.

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  • RMweb Gold

I’ve formed the first side (for the L23, building the wartime replacement which had no nets).  
 

the tumblehome was formed taping the side to a metal pipe and gently rolling (before slightly flattening the end result.  With that done a steel ruler was taped to the bench, before fixing the side against it.  Removing the support of one section and soldering the recessed part into place.  This was repeated for all 3 doors.  The end was then soldered in place against an engineers square.

 

finally I tested a Comet roof against the other end which was a good enough fit to continue worm. 

99E9B002-B145-45A0-A9AF-B59D574AAAE4.jpeg.c92d06bb44acf033edd00c20e11b1161.jpeg

 

There is a big gap between the bottom of the door and the side as expected.   I will add a backing piece and the fill the remaining hole.   

4EDC4F52-FF58-49DC-AD29-368D7E615CF0.jpeg.d95c562cb4dfd4b27ab51b1602287ea8.jpeg
 

the kit doesn’t appear to include parts to fill all of the remaining gaps across

the width of the door and cutaway.  There is one part which looks suitable for the door (but only 2 of them).  My plan is to use the scrap fret cut to size  and soldered in place.  
 

 

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  • RMweb Gold

Prior to work this morning I formed the tumblehome on the other side of the L23, cleaned up the etches and soldered the handrails in position on the inner edges of the recessed doors.  I wish i had thought of doing that before I soldered the first door in position on the other side, as its going to be fun adding them now... 

 

This evening I will get the second side assembled and joined up with the first, after which the two sides will be soldered together.  Potentially may even get the roof on.

 

A touch on the rest of the plan,

The Hammond etches include the sides and ends only, along side which I have some castings for the nets 

Along side this I have ordered a Comet roof (which is a good fit on the Hammond ends), Comet floor (which will need significant modification to clear the recessed doors, and will still need to source the various castings needed to complete once I have checked what I currently have available. 

 

I have a L18, L21, L22, L23 and L24.  (the latter being not particularly useful, and what I should really have built first.) 

The formation of the Penzance TPO in the spring of 1947 was as below (I think this is after I removed one coach for compression) 

Siphon G diag O11

Full Brake Diag K17

Sorting Van either L14 or L18, I'd like to do the 70ft L14 eventually.

Sorting Van L18 

Sorting Van on loan from LMS, I think by the end of 47 this had been replaced with one of the new L25s which I plan to build with the Bill Bedford sides eventually.

Sorting Van L22

Stowage Van L21

Guards Stowage Van L23

 

The L24 will fill in for one of the missing coaches until the real thing is added.

 

 

 

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  • RMweb Gold

Before soldering together the two sides I used the excess fret to fill in the large gap between the bottom of the door and the  lower side.   This was followed by joining the two halves.

052AFC8F-46A1-4DD6-82E0-AE92D350CEB8.jpeg.1827948ce2f63f6ee3dbcb5ca361aba5.jpeg

next up the roof, here my plan was to mark up the recesses on the roof.  Cut them with the dremmel and then glue in place.   If only it was so simple.

 

first up the roof doesn’t fit the sides.  It’s fine on the ends, but the ribs that glue to the sides get in the way.  The solution here was to thin the ribs by removing a quarter of a mm from each side providing enough clearance.

 

next the cutaways, i marked them up drawing around the etch with the roof held in position then set to work with the dremmel.  The accuracy of the cutting disk just wasn’t there for the angled cuts, so I gave up with that and just cut the rear line.  The aim was to cut this too small and gradually file back to fit.  Of course it didn’t work out that way and was cut too big....

 

the roof was then glued in place, masking tape was ran around the joint between the side and roof.  This was then flooded with superglue to fill the channel (along with covering the of the masking tape.) 

 

finally once dry it was given the first (of likely many) coat of Vallejo model filler.

 

Its currently say on a Lima siphon chassis while it awaits a chassis of its own building.  In part this was a test to confirm the design which will be replicated in brass.  I don’t think Comet do a 50ft GW chassis, so I think I will end up modifying their LMS one.   Unless I strip down and rebuild this plastic one....

290A4082-7525-48BA-9720-EA9F5569EE20.jpeg.2e2a1a084f6a16cde2b6867e6aa86b31.jpegE1D9C59C-E6B7-4347-B942-B8CE7B978893.jpeg.794f7822794aea1f276848c86488ac40.jpeg
 

definitely will been a different approach on the roof next time 

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  • The Fatadder changed the title to Building Hammond GW TPO kits

Cracking job on what's a difficult build, especially with the rebates in the roof. Did this sit on 9" bogies? You could always get some brass sheet and make your own chassis, bit hair shirt, but with some 1.5mm brass L angle...

 

Mike

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  • RMweb Gold

This stage is taking rather a long time, a couple of coats of filler, sanding then a coat of primer and repeat.

 

I am slowly getting toward a stage that I am happy with the end result, but rain as stopped play as I can’t get outside to reapply primer over the area in question. 
I definitely need a much better method to use on the rest.


DC00583F-8BF7-4DE5-BCB0-EF21E650559C.jpeg.8b3ed3a1098157cf2ce8cd9d64f47174.jpeg

 

ive finished some other minor jobs, adding buffers, two roof vents (after which I ran out) and opening out the holes for the body side handrails which will be glued in place after painting.   The roof has been tidied up and i think I will get the corridors fitted this evening.  The Lima chassis has been cleaned up and is getting closer and closer to getting a set of Airfix bogies and being used as a final chassis...  
 

I am contemplating wiring up my old PC to have a go at drawing up the body side lamps in SolidWorks (if I can remember my way around the software.)   I want something clear, and given I think I need 20 of them 3D printing seems sensible....

 

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  • RMweb Gold

The drop lights and upper part of a window have now been added (it’s a bit odd on this kit that most droplights are half etched but a couple are not.   I also added the door hinges, another coat of filler and the corridor connector castings (which will get flexible extensions once painted).

 

 

I had another look at the other coaches, I can’t for the life of me figure out why I decided to go for a coach with cutaways on both sides for my first attempt.  Still, at least the rest will be easier!

00758AD5-F434-4D7C-ACD6-27190736958B.jpeg

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  • RMweb Gold

Very minor update after spraying another dusting of etch primer at lunch today, I am almost happy with the roof with just a couple of marks needing one final coat of filler.  I have checked the bag of castings, among the parts for all of the collection nets I have enough of the side lights for the rake.  However I still think I will look to try and replace with with a more detailed part, as these are little more than blobs of white metal.  

 

The model is now rapidly approaching the limits of what can be done without a delivery of more parts for the roof vents and chassis.  Likewise there is not a lot that can be done on the remaining coaches, mostly because I dont want to start soldering up the frames until I have the roof ready to install. 

 

Speaking of the roof, I have a plan of attack for the remaining coaches.  the first step will be preparing the roof cutaway before cutting the roof to size.  I think on the 50ft coaches at least, there is enough waste metal on the roof extrusion that if a mistake was made there is enough left to chop it off and try again.  

With the rib thickness I also have a plan, I will file away a lot more of the rib, leaving 20mm lengths followed by a 40mm gap.  This should give enough rigidity for the side / roof joint without leaving me very long lengths of metal to thin down.  

 

I will also make sure to remember to ensure that the droplights and handrails are soldered into position before I assemble the coach, not after!   This will be particularly important on the next batch given some of the other coaches dont have half etched droplights on the recessed doors.   

 

 

As soon as the roofs arrive the build will continue, in the mean time I have a Mainline sunshine stock third which needs to be fitted new sides as a first (using up the sides from the kit from which I pinched the roof and castings for the L23)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • RMweb Gold

Parts are now finally on order for the next batch, covering floors, roofs, end castings and roof vents.   Bogies will follow at a later date, as will the underframe detail (although I think I have a fair bit of that in my spares box)  
 

the L23 is now pretty much ready for paint, and is finished other than bogies and handrails, I can’t decide on the latter as to whether I will add now or wait until painted to assist the masking. 
AB5B7ED4-E982-483D-86AA-53DFB9D4D563.jpeg.2dc4b473404936509d869b06763d0f42.jpeg

 

L18 will be next...

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  • RMweb Gold

A question for any TPO experts

 

 

the Penzance TPO was pretty unique in that it had collection on both sides of the train in order to make a collection on the return journey without having to turn the train.

 

the only coach with pickup on both sides was the L23, however one of the L23s was destroyed in the war and replaced by a new build in 1940 which was not fitted with nets (at least not on the ‘normal’ side which is shown in Russell)

edit: I should add that my review of the Harris coach book refers to 814 being destroyed and the replacement built identical.   Was collection en route  by TPOs stopped during the war and just ran as a point to point service, so they didn’t bother adding the nets until later I wonder?  Really I need another 1940s photo of 814...
 

I need to confirm when this coach gained its nets, and whether a net was fitted to the non corridor side to be used for the liskard pickup

 

(I know i could just model 812 or 813 which would have had nets on both sides, but I want something different (and to reuse the spare net parts on the LMS sort.) 

Edited by The Fatadder
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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks for that confirmation Nick, absolutely perfect confirmation for my model.  
 

Tonight I made a start on the next coach in the formation, a 57ft L21.

 

 Construction has followed that used on the L23 with a few improvements.  I left off the end steps to allow the use of an Engineers square when soldering the ends on (they appear to be easy enough to solder in position after the roof is fitted.)  I also soldered the droplights etc in place while the side was flat.

 

Unfortunately I ran out of solder before finishing the second side.  I am dyspraxic and as a result have a tendency to bash into things when moving without noticing, today it was the end of the coach that I knocked clean off.  First time round I had managed to solder square, when reattaching it I took forever to get it square!

If it wasn’t for the rework I think I’d have been fine, as it was just one door and one end that I didn’t have enough solder to fit...

C700004D-FA8B-4FE9-876D-A6F53A6E76C0.jpeg.a7533006de855c853a40523074b987d9.jpeg
 

9D2B038A-42B5-41E8-9C22-96345D813933.jpeg.f9e5ca608a763e8bbb1dde3f9907968a.jpeg

 

I am awaiting an order from Wizard Models containing the roofs, which thankfully also includes a pack of solder.  Once that arrives I will finish it off.

 

 

I have a plan for the roof as well, having found the drawings in Russell I am planning to use them as a guide for cutting.  I have already checked the side against the drawing and it matches so I should be better off than last time...

 

 

 

 

Edited by The Fatadder
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  • RMweb Gold

I didn’t quite manage to fit the roof (as I was making too much noise filing it.) but the body is now complete. As is the chasssi, using comet parts modified to fit the various cut outs in the sides. 

 

‘Meanwhile the LMS coach has been given some paint to the  new ends, roof and body side panels 

A9C840EA-B3BD-44CD-89A5-3EB2DF9E20B0.jpeg

8E73FA3F-DC82-4BAF-A542-4FA133718F37.jpeg

1B14D691-959D-47A7-B4F9-9AC4ED40BD17.jpeg

9A075919-44D7-41DD-BF15-A282C4A2FA0E.jpeg

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  • RMweb Gold

I’ve now finished the filing to get the roof installed, and glued it in place.

 While it worked a lot better than the L23 it’s still going to need a fair bit of filler to finish.

 

Unfortunately  I forgot to drill the holes for the roof vents before gluing the roof in place, so hopefully it won’t cause any damage.   I will use the pillar drill so hopefully it won’t brake the bond between sides and roof.   This will be finished off this weekend before adding the castings.  Hopefully I have enough etch primer left to finish the job....

6CF0AA90-2E5F-4A1C-873B-BB108E87F50E.jpeg

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  • RMweb Gold

End and roof castings have now been fitted to the L21, and the remaining roof vents on the L23.

 

it now needs a good scrub in ciff, before starting on the filler (door gaps and roof over the cutaway.  This will be followed (assuming there’s enough in the cab) etch primer, before adding the masking tape roof ribs.

03F8CADE-CA29-4EBC-95DF-2EFCAC7A30A3.jpeg

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  • RMweb Gold

While waiting for the L21 to dry after its scrub down I have made a start on the L18.  I planned to just form the sides but carried on and finished the soldering. 
 

it was a lot harder to form the tumblehome on the continuous 57ft side.  But got there in the end, thankfully this is the worst one I will face on the TPO (for now at least).

 

other than that construction was as per the L21.  The roof has yet to be worked on (a daytime job).  While the chassis is a little more involved.  On the L21 I had a spare set of comet end fixings left over from the A22 build, for the L18 and L22 I need to add a bracket on the non corridor side that will sit on the spar along the top of the underframe.  The corridor side should work fine with the plate under the doors sitting on the floor.   At this rate I will have the main builds finished in November.  Though the painting and the addition of bogies will not be complete until the spring

C3EB17BE-1934-41A3-ABDD-3562F66F855F.jpeg

B9A3D473-9ED2-4859-A2B4-FA1805908298.jpeg
 

when this is finished it will leave me a difficult decision as to which service to loose in the fiddleyard.  As it’s currently full and I have a feeling this will be a permanent resident in the fiddleyard.  

Edited by The Fatadder
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  • RMweb Gold

Moving on, the roof is now prepped for the L18.   This time after marking up I cut the angles with a hacksaw as per the L21 but used a cutting disk for the long cut.  Best one yet, until I realise it was too small.  Filing it out to size resulted in one end being filed more than the other and a lopsided hole which needs filling....

 

it was then drilled for roof vents and glued in place.

 

bwfore gluing I marked up the sides (using the chassis from the L21) so that I can see where the mounting brackets need to be fitted. These will be soldered in place once I have built the L18 chassis.


 

F00D0906-5144-4C17-93F7-70D03D062D07.jpeg.f577dd1a9dc8906e7d497c999d305c3c.jpeg
 

I have also completed the first filler application on the L21, which now need priming to see how much more work is needed.   

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  • RMweb Gold

The L18 is now fitted with its chassis and roof detail, while both it and the L21 have had the masking tape ribs applied to the respective roofs.  Other than a coat of etch primer on a dry day, this completes the initial work so it’s time to move onto the final build an L22.

432DD449-FCA2-4DCB-86A8-6553D361961E.jpeg.463af1cd9c74b34780bc5f5150c7fe8d.jpeg

Eventually I will need to decide which number I’m building as the first batch 797 to 800 were built with nets, while the second batch 801 to 803 were built without.  I think I’m right in saying that 797-800 were in the WOE service but I need to confirm.  The working timetable for 46/7 appears to list 797-800 as used on the cross country TPO (Bristol - PZ) and in the G W TPO.  Gut feeling is that the net fitted ones would be saved for the Bristol service given it only includes the L22, but it could be that service doesn’t pick up en route and hence had the non fitted vans...

 These 50ft coaches were  the second to be replaced with the new Hawksworth L25s (after the borrowed LMS sorting vans)

14EC2865-D433-4299-834A-005C1AA09B67.jpeg.f2c0ee1e2388af1834b0a94f53b28292.jpeg
 

finally I still need to work out the remaining 2 vehicles, I need a K15 clerestory full brake (long out of production) and a siphon G.

 

The latter I have an etched kit for an O33 which is handy given 2917,  2933 and 2943 were branded as designated to the woe TPO (I presume with traditional centre gangways unlike the K17).  It’s a much more complicated kit, and i am dreading building it almost as much as I was the TPO itself.  But it’s only right my best siphon goes with one of my favourite formations rather than showing up the rest of my parcels stock!

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  • RMweb Gold

I’ve ran out of primer (and managed to loose a roof vent, plus the toilet roof panel has come unstuck.) but the sides of both L18 and L21 are primed.  At least this shows where more work is needed filling the gaps.

 

i will brush paint over the roof ribs on the L18 to seal them. 
 

no paint yet on the underframe given there is still more soldering required adding steps and battery boxes etc.

CBD879CA-5703-4F76-9CEA-D0D4C9AC6136.jpeg

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  • The Fatadder changed the title to Building The 1947 Great Western TPO

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