Rails of Sheffield Improved Precedent Class

[No Decorum]

13 hours ago, john new said:

I fit DCC to new purchases as it is the way the hobby is going, but am still a novice.
 

Given the various issues mentioned above for a non-sound version, using an NCE Powercab when on DCC what is the recommended chip? Hopefully, with not too much messing about with CV settings.

In Bachmann’s reply mentioned by Butler Henderson above, the decoder isn’t mentioned. The letter writer mentions having tried both a Gaugemaster 21 pin and a Bachmann 21 pin. I’d guess, as Butler Henderson mentions, a Bachmann decoder might be intended. I haven’t tried a decoder in mine but I do use an NCE Powercab and changing CV settings with it isn’t difficult.

 

I know you said that you’re looking for a non-sound decoder but this is just a thought. The Precedent comes with a speaker fitted and Bachmann’s reply in the magazine mentions that sound fitted models come configured for the particular model (though Bachmann hasn’t produced one for the Precedent). You could expect an after-market supplier to provide a sound decoder so configured.

[Butler Henderson]

9 hours ago, No Decorum said:

In Bachmann’s reply mentioned by Butler Henderson above, the decoder isn’t mentioned. 

CV54 and 55 are not universal, on ESU Lokpilots, as used by Bachmann, they are load control parameters which Bachmann are clearly referencing.

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 11/02/2022 at 14:43, PaulRhB said:

They’ve offered the L&B coaches for O16.5 pre-printed although they aren’t currently on the website, I guess the Lionheart announcement has made them less viable. They also do a few in 7mm sg https://slatersplastikard.com/carriages/gOPaintedCarriages.php

I’ve got a couple of the Ratio kits but they are a way down the job pile at present. 
 

 

 

 

 Thanks for the link, Paul.

 

The price for the painted kit is £61.00 more than the unpainted kit. I wonder if they are hand painted and lined, or tampo printed? I expect that the cost for a 4mm model wouldn't be very different, so making it considerably higher than the Dapol CKD kit. If the Ratio kits were an additional £40 - £50 for a painted version, so making them around £60 - £70, would there be much demand?

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 Thanks for the link, Paul.

 

The price for the painted kit is £61.00 more than the unpainted kit. I wonder if they are hand painted and lined, or tampo printed? I expect that the cost for a 4mm model wouldn't be very different, so making it considerably higher than the Dapol CKD kit. If the Ratio kits were an additional £40 - £50 for a painted version, so making them around £60 - £70, would there be much demand?

Hard to say Jol but when you’ve spent £220 on the loco a three or four coach train for around the same price with an easy to build plastic kit would certainly seem reasonable to me. By the time you’ve built an etch kit at £45-50 and then have to paint it on top a total of £60-70 vs a professional paint quote starts to be very appealing. I assume Peco use some form of pad print for the 009 coaches and they did a similar job on the L&B livery that looks superb so they have the technology already within the company. 
Going by the birdcage stock that had more livery options a rtr one would be quite a bit more to justify it currently so still unlikely, I’d guess £80-100 amid howls of anguish  

[Dr.Glum]

On 11/02/2022 at 08:38, Butler Henderson said:

There's a letter in the latest Bachmann collectors club magazine re poor running on DCC. Bachmann suggest that with their (ESU Lok pilot) decoder setting CV54 to 5 and CV55 to 200 and then making incremental changes as may be necessary.

Thank you Sir BH, this was most useful. It has made my Lucknow with a Bachmann 36-557 (ESU LokPilot Standard) behave for the first time. To get graduated control starting and stopping I've set CV3 & 4  to 30 (after working up from default 16) and top speed cv5 set to 20 and cv6 to 10. Now I know the loco can run OK, I might tweak those a little further.

It is noticeable how dependent mine is on the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the tender pickups. I've fettled the drivers, but think I will swap out the traction tyred ones.

[One thing Bachmann are to be congratulated on: the two screws to release the tender top had been done up with reasonable torque (unlike the ridiculous force needed for some Heljan and Hornby offerings I've bought recently). Mind you, I couldn't find them to undo without looking for the leaflet, which I'd mislaid! Also the top came off and back on with no fuss - again, unlike some others I've recently dealt with.]

[Mike at C&M]

On 11/02/2022 at 08:38, Butler Henderson said:

There's a letter in the latest Bachmann collectors club magazine re poor running on DCC. Bachmann suggest that with their (ESU Lok pilot) decoder setting CV54 to 5 and CV55 to 200 and then making incremental changes as may be necessary.

Has anyone got these CV changes to work? And if so, what "incremental changes" did you end up making. The changes to CV54 and CV55 did make a difference, but the loco runs far from smoothly even with these changes.

 

We have a customer who has brought one of these in for us to investigate, but don't want to spend the day changing CVs when we should be doing other things.

 

Thank you in advance for any advice received.

[brumtb]

On 19/05/2022 at 11:16, Mike at C&M said:

Has anyone got these CV changes to work? And if so, what "incremental changes" did you end up making. The changes to CV54 and CV55 did make a difference, but the loco runs far from smoothly even with these changes.

 

We have a customer who has brought one of these in for us to investigate, but don't want to spend the day changing CVs when we should be doing other things.

 

Thank you in advance for any advice received.

I was advised on this thread to turn off BEMF and it certainly made a big difference although I think a little more tweaking of the above CVs may help further but I've not tried so far.

[Mike at C&M]

14 hours ago, brumtb said:

I was advised on this thread to turn off BEMF and it certainly made a big difference although I think a little more tweaking of the above CVs may help further but I've not tried so far.

I assume BEMF is back EMF. How do you turn it off?

 

I have found out that switching CV66 to 1 should help. The locomotive is more responsive as a result, but is still prone to stuttering. It most certainly is not the smooth running you would want from DCC.

 

Further advice appreciated, if anyone can give it.

[brumtb]

1 hour ago, Mike at C&M said:

I assume BEMF is back EMF. How do you turn it off?

 

I have found out that switching CV66 to 1 should help. The locomotive is more responsive as a result, but is still prone to stuttering. It most certainly is not the smooth running you would want from DCC.

 

Further advice appreciated, if anyone can give it.

On an ESU decoder (Bachmann say to use the ESU lokpilot manual for the 36-557) you can also reduce the value in cv49 to 16 and try that. If not return it to 17. 

The Decoder instructions are here :  https://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/instruction-manuals/digital-decoders/?no_cache=1&tx_esudownloads_pi1[downloadItem]=3c0f5bc3181aa6cbc7a131c8801e2a35  BEMF is at CV49.

 

Tony 

[Mike at C&M]

We have a solution, and my thanks go to John at DCCconcepts for looking in detail at this for me.

 

Not all decoders appear to support coreless motors, and this is what has been the main barrier.

 

The decoders that do support coreless motors are DCCconcepts 'Black' decoders and the Rails of Sheffield 'Connect' Decoder. Others may also do the job.

     We also know that the DCCconcepts AE decoders DO NOT support coreless motors, and from the experience we have had, I would suggest that Bachmann 21-pin decoders do not support them either.

 

So with a suitable decoder in place, CV66 is changed to 1

 

Job done!

[Guardian]

Do you see any chance of a re-run of der LNWR line black version, maybe with different loco number?

 

Unfortunately, I missed "Lucknow" (ba 35-161Z), and the era 3 LMS versions are a bit late for an 1890s express loco.

 

Best,

Mark

Edited August 1, 2022 by Guardian

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Do you see any chance of a re-run of der LNWR line black version, maybe with different loco number?

 

In slightly later condition, with tender coal rails? Other options include late LNWR / early LMS black - unlined but still with LNWR numberplate - classic "Jumbo" condition.

 

24 minutes ago, Guardian said:

the era 3 LMS versions are a bit late for an 1890s express loco.

 

Not quite sure what you mean there. LMS-period Jumbos are probably more up many modeller's street. I would expect that there are more people modelling ex-LNWR secondary lines in the late 1920s/ early 1930s than there are modelling the main line in the 1890s. The last Jumbos were withdrawn in 1933.

[Guardian]

Hi Stephen,

 

just a personal preference - I prefer an 1890s/1900s version rather than a later livery when the former express locos where used on secondary lines prior to their withdrawal. I am aware that matching express rolling stock as yet only is available as kit.

 

Btw, the era 2 LNWR versions are sold out while the era 3 LMS versions, both black and crimson, are still available.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Btw, the era 2 LNWR versions are sold out while the era 3 LMS versions, both black and crimson, are still available.

 

Understood, and agree. I've got a spare set of LRM tender coal rails for post-dating Lucknow to 1902 condition, along with John Bright name an numberplates on order with 247 Developments.

 

I suspect Lucknow has sold out first as it's the better mantelpiece ornament.

[brumtb]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Understood, and agree. I've got a spare set of LRM tender coal rails for post-dating Lucknow to 1902 condition, along with John Bright name an numberplates on order with 247 Developments.

 

I suspect Lucknow has sold out first as it's the better mantelpiece ornament.

I've post-dated my Lucknow to late LNWR condition as well and wait longingly for the 247 Developments name and numberplates.  I wouldn't mind another one though in due course.

Tony

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, brumtb said:

I've post-dated my Lucknow to late LNWR condition as well and wait longingly for the 247 Developments name and numberplates.  I wouldn't mind another one though in due course.

 

I had a chat with Mr 247 Developments at ExpoEM back in May. He said he was doing the artwork for the Precedent names but each one needed meticulous attention to the spacing to match photos.

[Nile]

On 01/08/2022 at 12:11, Guardian said:

Do you see any chance of a re-run of der LNWR line black version, maybe with different loco number?

 

Unfortunately, I missed "Lucknow" (ba 35-161Z), and the era 3 LMS versions are a bit late for an 1890s express loco.

 

Best,

Mark

 

Limited number of Lucknow available at Rails:

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/lucknow-lner-precedent

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nile said:

 

Limited number of Lucknow available at Rails:

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/lucknow-lner-precedent

 

 

Something seriously wrong with that url. I was expecting to see a green Jumbo.

[Guardian]

Hi All

 

as an Improved Precedent class arrived here last week - on the test runs, I noticed a poor electric pickup. My first thought was "stay-alive", the second, "change the wheelset with the traction tire". But after a few investigations, I realised that the complete loco section did not contribute to the electric pickup of the model, i.e. the model was relying on the tender pickups only.

 

After having disassembled the loco body from the loco chassis, I found that the electical connection from chassis to loco (and through that and the tender plug-in to the decoder) was mechanically interrupted: one of the small electrical connectors did not have contact to the contact in the loco body. bent it a little up, tested successfully and re-assembled the whole model, it proved to be a good runner with sufficient electrical pickup.

 

pickups of the loco chassis, connecting to the loco body by the two small bent hooks  

 

 

contacts in the loco body, instead of soldering the wires directly.

 

 

However, I additionally mounted a 1 mF stay-alive.

 

So, if you are considering to change the wheelset with the traction tires due to bad electrical pickup, please chick first if the loco wheelsets are properly connected and contribute to the electrical pickup of the model at all.

 

Btw, from a mechanical point of view, Bachmann should have used also the leading axle as electrical pickup (which they did not for whatever purpose). This is the wheelset with the most weight above it and being spring-loaded, thus, the potentially safest electrical pickup of the model. 

 

happy monday,

Mark

[rhydddu]

Hi - has anyone managed to successfully convert the Bachmann Improved Precedent to EM or P4 yet? Early discussions suggested this might be difficult (not much room around splashers etc), which put me off, but the models do look super so I'd be interested to know how difficult it is... Thanks in advance

[Jol Wilkinson]

It has been done;

 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=139&t=8233

 

Clearly needs some care to preserve the paintwork and not overdo removing the metal.

[rhydddu]

Thanks - looks possible then, I will get on to Gibsons...

[adb968008]

On 01/08/2022 at 13:11, Guardian said:

Do you see any chance of a re-run of der LNWR line black version, maybe with different loco number?

 

Unfortunately, I missed "Lucknow" (ba 35-161Z), and the era 3 LMS versions are a bit late for an 1890s express loco.

 

Best,

Mark

Locomotion is still advertising Hardwicke in LNWR black

 

 https://www.locomotionmodels.com/exclusive-models/steam-locomotives/lnwr-improved-precedent-class-2-4-0-no-790-hardwicke

 

 

[Guardian]

On 27/10/2022 at 14:53, adb968008 said:

Locomotion is still advertising Hardwicke in LNWR black

 

I did notice that later ... meanwhile, "Hardwicke" is in my shed ...

 

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Jol Wilkinson]

They are now starting to appear on Ebay. The speculative "collectors" have presumably become bored with admiring their latest purchase and want their money back. The highest prices are being asked for the LNWR livery versions.