Hornby 2021 - Mk 4 coaching stock with DVTs

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

It is difficult to plot demand . Remember there are cheap skates like me that are quite happily running their old VTEC 91s that only came with 2 Mk4 TSOs and maybe would look to buy a first and restaurant to replace my clumsily painted ones . 

 

If you're a cheapskate you must have bought it when it came out then, that's (or was) a sought after pack

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, Class 158 productions said:

Not an electric modeller, but a full fully detailed 91 set at full chat will be something amazing to behold. I agree on the dummy hst price point, as another comment said, it’s rrp is £200 cheaper than the twin pack

 

If complaints are made too loudly about that and they want to maintain the twin pack price ... they might end up increasing the HST DVT RRP to close the gap ...

Edited January 6, 2021 by GordonC

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, 69843 said:

Long shot, do you know the numbers of Mk3s used for the testing?

I picked up the full Mk3 range with the intention to make these very trains using 43123 from the other pack (and also to swap it in behind a Class 90/Mk3 DVT, and the Class 89). Whilst I fully accept the central door locking being wrong and other things being wrong for a WCML rake, and I have plans to renumber the TGS to 44056, I'd be interested to at least give the Mk3s some correct numbers to run with the 91/HST.

As I model British more as a break from Australian these days, I can accept a bit of compromise but wouldn't mind doing it sort of properly. Incidentally how hard would it be to backdate the cars to pre-CDL?

More detail here

http://www.traintesting.com/ic225_2.htm

 

For service rakes:

 

In absence of anyone with better intel, I can see that 44021/56/58/59/86/97/101 were fitted with buffers.

In 1989/1990 they were allocated to BN /NL sets as follows:

 

NL47 (21) 41044 41043 40737 42340 42063 42064 42065 44021&

BN16 (56) 41087 41088 40706 42104 42171 42172 42173 44056

BN18 (58) 41091 41092 40717* 42179 42180 42181 42106 44058 

BN19 (59) 41093 41094 40707 42183 42184 42185 42107 44059

NL37 (86)  41157  41158 40743 42235 42240 42245 42250 44086

BN26 (97) 41113 41108 41107 40715 42217 42218 42219 44097

44101 spare

 

& 44021 joined BN05 in 1990 : 41171/73/734/42338/178/127/128/44021

*40704 in 1989

# 42235 / 42240 removed,  41041 / 40505 added inbetween 41157/58 in 1990

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by adb968008

[Pete the Elaner]

21 hours ago, JDW said:

 

Yes, that all seems a little confused from listening to the video! The HST power cars (not Mk3 DVTs!) ran with Mk3 sets and a 91 at the other end, essentially a HST with one power car replaced by  new 91. A Mk4 set needs a Mk4 DVT! 

 

I thought the same. The video seemed to infer that the Mk4 coaches were released before the DVTs, so they used the HST DVTs instead.

 

The 91s were available before Mk4s, so they wanted to use them (& the 89) with available coaches. Available coaches on the ECML were HST Mk3s.

A problem was that the 89 & 91s had standard single phase ETH but the HSTs required 3 phase. The solution was to convert some HSTs to work with the 89/91s using TDM. This was initially just to provide ETH & as a DVT to control loco when it was pushing.

I read that the HSTs were problematic when just providing electrical power, so were re-configured to also provide traction power, which allowed the sets to accelerate rather quickly.

 

As mentioned, the Mk4 sets did not work with HST DVTs.

Hornby already produce the Mk3s though.

 

The twin set of HST DVTs due shortly have the part yellow ends, which was a later modification, so not really correct for running with a 91/89 at the other end.

When first converted, the HST DVTs had full yellow ends as depicted by the recently announced single DVT (which at the time were disliked by many).

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

6 hours ago, 69843 said:

Long shot, do you know the numbers of Mk3s used for the testing?

I picked up the full Mk3 range with the intention to make these very trains using 43123 from the other pack (and also to swap it in behind a Class 90/Mk3 DVT, and the Class 89). Whilst I fully accept the central door locking being wrong and other things being wrong for a WCML rake, and I have plans to renumber the TGS to 44056, I'd be interested to at least give the Mk3s some correct numbers to run with the 91/HST.

As I model British more as a break from Australian these days, I can accept a bit of compromise but wouldn't mind doing it sort of properly. Incidentally how hard would it be to backdate the cars to pre-CDL?

I can find out for you if you promise to take the CDL off and change the interiors on the TS vehicles for the new replacement ones (type "Mk3 interior Hornby" into eBay. (Yes, I still have too many left!!). To take the Mk3's back to the 1980's you'd have to take the CDL lights off with a scalpel as well as the release handles located near the bottom of the handrail beside the door, and take the printed versions of the same off their incorrect positions on the other side of the coach.

 

The TGS mod is quite easy as the RTR comes with buffers to insert.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

If you're a cheapskate you must have bought it when it came out then, that's (or was) a sought after pack

 

I think not quite as it came out , but I certainly didn't pay over the odds . I bought two East Coast Mk4s at the same time which were repainted red /white . From memory they were £11.95 discounted . But I'm sure the finish on these will be much better than my hand painted jobs , and I never found anything that replcated the blue first class stripes . Railtec didnt do them . So I'd certainly be interested in restaurant and first . Seems decent price too 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

That ones not on a service train.. its got a mk1 BG behind it.

 

The powers cars didnt go away after the mk4’s arrived, they are still with us.. just about... if LSL had picked this, and hence red buffer beam, it would be getting deceptively closer to an original pullman. I did hear anecdotally these power cars were persistently less reliable after the conversion.

43123 joined Virgin Trains, and later Grand Central, and as 43423  with EMT / EMR until the end of operations in 2020, still with buffer beams.

(not mine/flickr url)

 

 

you can buy it right now for £289.. just released.. R3944. Featuring 43123 in Intercity livery.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/513686/hornby_r3944_pair_of_class_43_hst_power_cars_43123_and_43065_city_of_edinburgh_in_intercity_s/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

That's in service- you only need an RCH cable which at least two of the WCML BG's must have had as there are numerous shots of 43123 (and fewer of 43014) on normal WCML service trains formed 43123+BG+regular rake of Mk2s+Class 86.

 

All eight DVT power cars returned to the core fleet from early 1990 and all made it into the XC fleet and then into the Virgin fleet before 013+014 wandered off to become NMT in 2002 after the Voyagers were introduced. I don't think they were any less reliable than others after they settled back into use as normal HST power cars, there was some garbage in one of the many error laden Marsden books about them being stipulated for certain duties on XC because of their ease of recovery but this wasn't true. What was true was the preference, if viable, to attach a rescue loco to the end with buffers if that was an option- I was once on a set that ran out of fuel around Castle Bromwich owing to a litany of foul-ups I won't bore you with and the rescue loco came past us and onto the rear and shoved to Birmingham New St where the train changed direction.

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

That's in service- you only need an RCH cable which at least two of the WCML BG's must have had as there are numerous shots of 43123 (and fewer of 43014) on normal WCML service trains formed 43123+BG+regular rake of Mk2s+Class 86.

 

All eight DVT power cars returned to the core fleet from early 1990 and all made it into the XC fleet and then into the Virgin fleet before 013+014 wandered off to become NMT in 2002 after the Voyagers were introduced. I don't think they were any less reliable than others after they settled back into use as normal HST power cars, there was some garbage in one of the many error laden Marsden books about them being stipulated for certain duties on XC because of their ease of recovery but this wasn't true. What was true was the preference, if viable, to attach a rescue loco to the end with buffers if that was an option- I was once on a set that ran out of fuel around Castle Bromwich owing to a litany of foul-ups I won't bore you with and the rescue loco came past us and onto the rear and shoved to Birmingham New St where the train changed direction.

 

Looking at that image of 43123 in New St, and others, it seems to have "conventional" ETH jumper cable (drivers side) and receptacle (secondmans side). Did all the eight buffer fitted power cars receive that mod ?

 

[69843]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

BN16 (56) 41087 41088 40706 42104 42171 42172 42173 44056

Thank you very kindly for that information. Looks like I'll go BN16 at this stage, unless any further intel turns up on the matter.

 

2 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

I can find out for you if you promise to take the CDL off and change the interiors on the TS vehicles for the new replacement ones (type "Mk3 interior Hornby" into eBay. (Yes, I still have too many left!!). To take the Mk3's back to the 1980's you'd have to take the CDL lights off with a scalpel as well as the release handles located near the bottom of the handrail beside the door, and take the printed versions of the same off their incorrect positions on the other side of the coach.

I guess I don't need to keep that promise now . But I'll arrange the new interiors shortly, and look into the CDL mods-matching the paint down here would be the biggest issue with doing bodywork modifications to the cars. Fortunately I was aware of the buffers being included for the TGS-they will be fitted to the car (guards end only)

[Simon Bendall]

34 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Looking at that image of 43123 in New St, and others, it seems to have "conventional" ETH jumper cable (drivers side) and receptacle (secondmans side). Did all the eight buffer fitted power cars receive that mod ?

 

 

When  43014 and 43123 were first converted and trialled on the WCML, they were purely unpowered DVTs, Power for their systems was supplied by a motor-alternator set in the former guard’s compartment, this being fed from the ETS of the AC electric. Cables on the front would have allowed train ETS to be maintained if the electric had to run round after a TDM failure. IIRC, the other six didn't have them.

[scottrains29]

6 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

All eight DVT power cars returned to the core fleet from early 1990 and all made it into the XC fleet and then into the Virgin fleet

43067 and 43080 then worked for GNER after Virgin. They were unique in the fleet not just for having buffers but for having yellow either side of the cab front rather than just below. 

[frobisher]

5 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Looking at that image of 43123 in New St, and others, it seems to have "conventional" ETH jumper cable (drivers side) and receptacle (secondmans side). Did all the eight buffer fitted power cars receive that mod ?

 

 

That's the HST MW jumper I'd have thought?

Edited January 6, 2021 by frobisher

[Wild Boar Fell]

Looking forward to the new Mk4s, typically I have my ones nearly ready for painting.

Will be interesting to see if the tooling allows for any differences on the welsh ones, the TOE having the most obvious difference on the outer end. Admitted the intermediate coaches you'd have to know where to look to see the differences (loss of the end baffles on one side only).

 

[Global]

I’m just wondering what period the InterCity Mk4s are being portrayed as? 

I thought when new the buffet was a first not a standard and I’m not sure the was a first disabled toilet either?

 

When was the buffet turned around? I thought it was in GNER days? 

[Wild Boar Fell]

34 minutes ago, Global said:

I’m just wondering what period the InterCity Mk4s are being portrayed as? 

I thought when new the buffet was a first not a standard and I’m not sure the was a first disabled toilet either?

 

When was the buffet turned around? I thought it was in GNER days? 

 

I believe both changes were made about the time of the Mallard refurbs, from memory some time between 2001 -2003.

Happy to be corrected 

[TomScrut]

2 minutes ago, Wild Boar Fell said:

 

I believe both changes were made about the time of the Mallard refurbs, from memory some time between 2001 -2003.

Happy to be corrected 

 

Possibly related, but I thought the stainless light surrounds and grille happened at the Mallard refurbs too but the pic they feature is in IC. The refurbs all happened in GNER colours didn't they?

 

[TomScrut]

Something I am likely to recreate when my lot shows up as I have 67021 in Belmond

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ollie K]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

Possibly related, but I thought the stainless light surrounds and grille happened at the Mallard refurbs too but the pic they feature is in IC. The refurbs all happened in GNER colours didn't they?

 

I believe the revised headlight and grille treatment was added to at least some 91s pre the ‘911XX’ refurbs as a response to multiple incidences of front end damage caused by bird strikes. There are images knocking around online of scarred Intercity 91s looking a bit battered before receiving the ‘armoured’ nose plates.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, OliverBytham said:

bird strikes.

 

There's a bird stuck in that grille!

 

I won't go into if it's a swallow or a swift...

 

 

[69843]

6 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

There's a bird stuck in that grille!

 

I won't go into if it's a swallow or a swift...

 

 

I think it's an ex-parrot 

[Global]

Thanks for the replies above, I’ve been looking at some videos on YouTube and the formation in InterCity days appears to have been 8 coaches, at least at the beginning, and lettering for for First Class seems to be G/H etc

 

TSOE

TSO (one TSO likely to be TSOD)

TSO

TSO

TSO

RFM

FO

FO

Hornby ‘seem’ to be incorrectly producing a current day formation but in IC livery, as the Buffet should be First Class and not standard and they’re also showing lettering up to L/M which doesn’t seem to be correct. 

 

[Covkid]

13 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

That's the HST MW jumper I'd have thought?

 

I am not too clued up on the HST but am not sure they have a 27 way jumper on the nose end of power cars.  There is a plug of some sort under the nose for the shore line to be plugged in, but I cannot imagine either of those being relocated.  I am pretty sure that those are standard ETH jumpers, the second man side one is very distinctive as it angles down.    

[InterCity80s]

22 minutes ago, Global said:

Hornby ‘seem’ to be incorrectly producing a current day formation but in IC livery, as the Buffet should be First Class and not standard and they’re also showing lettering up to L/M which doesn’t seem to be correct. 

Shouldn't both the InterCity and GNER (assuming they're pre Mallard) have RFBs rather than RSBs?

[Global]

40 minutes ago, InterCity80s said:

Shouldn't both the InterCity and GNER (assuming they're pre Mallard) have RFBs rather than RSBs?

I’m pretty sure they should be yes, I’m more sure on the IC but I lost interest in railways from mid 90s to early 10s so not as certain on GNER but I believe the buffet was turned in the Mallard refurb.

 

The photo Hornby are using seems to show a 9 coach train but with an additional TSO I assume, so effectively...

 

TSOE

TSO

TSO

TSO

TSO

TSOD

RFM

FO

FO

 

So they would appear to be one short on a TSO, incorrect on the buffet (producing Standard when should be First) and one over on FO (there wasn’t an FOD until later - was this also added at Mallard?) 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

I am not too clued up on the HST but am not sure they have a 27 way jumper on the nose end of power cars.  There is a plug of some sort under the nose for the shore line to be plugged in, but I cannot imagine either of those being relocated.  I am pretty sure that those are standard ETH jumpers, the second man side one is very distinctive as it angles down.    

They are standard ETH jumpers on the front of 43014+43123, and the reason for their installation and through ETH wiring was to allow an ETH fitted loco (such as the Class 86) to go onto the front of the train in the event of a TDM failure and still therm the train. This was not needed on the Class 91 operation as the only vehicle in that consist capable of keeping the passengers warm/cool/supplied with tea was the Class 43, so even with the 91 on top of the power car you'd not plug anything in.

 

HSTs have a 36 way cable but there is not one under the nose cone, you cannot make HSTs "talk" to each other through the nose cones so if one needs to haul another you'd isolate the E70 brake controllers on the set not being driven from and run as if loco hauled at loco hauled speed maximums. There is a socket under the nose cone for shore supply but that's all it does, allows you to "plug in" and shut the engines down but still keep the coaches and auxiliaries alive.