GreenGiraffe22 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 For what it's worth, I'd welcome more unlined stock for quite a while the only Maunsells I owned were the unlined trio from the Return from Dunkirk set Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: I stand to be corrected, but I was under the impression that the lining had been simplified by the time the "modernised" 1935/6 stock was built. John It had been 'simplified' but by no means eliminated by that time. The elimination of lining on olive green was a Bulleid era thing (he became CME in 1937). BCK 6686 and TO 1309 on the Bluebell Railway carry authentic lined livery. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1309.html https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/6686.html Martin Edited January 6, 2021 by MartinTrucks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 5 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said: It had been 'simplified' but by no means eliminated by that time. The elimination of lining on olive green was a Bulleid era thing (he became CME in 1937). BCK 6686 and TO 1309 on the Bluebell Railway carry authentic lined livery. Martin Yes, but the post I was replying too questioned why Hornby are producing the older, less numerous Third Dining Saloon rather than those newer coaches and (IMHO) the fact that many will want models that match the fully lined ones they already have is as likely an explanation as any. The 1935/36 stock (to the best of my knowledge) carried the simplified lining from new. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 Mike King's book shows brand new TO 1450 in a simplified lined livery in 1936. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willc789 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 Would these coaches have ever run as a dining set of 3? eg Kitchen First, Dining Composite and Open Third? I have a few Open Thirds as loose stock, but dining combinations are a mystery to me. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: Yes, but the post I was replying too questioned why Hornby are producing the older, less numerous Third Dining Saloon rather than those newer coaches and (IMHO) the fact that many will want models that match the fully lined ones they already have is as likely an explanation as any. The 1935/36 stock (to the best of my knowledge) carried the simplified lining from new. John I do not know what Hornby's precise logic was in producing that vehicle but I suspect that they have tooled up for a post-war buffet conversion of the RFK and required a RCO to pair with it. If one models the mid-1930s, there would doubtless have been a mix of stock: new with simplified lining, revarnishes with full lining, repaints with simplified lining Martin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, willc789 said: Would these coaches have ever run as a dining set of 3? eg Kitchen First, Dining Composite and Open Third? I have a few Open Thirds as loose stock, but dining combinations are a mystery to me. I don't think 3-car dining sets were a Southern thing until the advent of the BR Mk1 sets, and I don't think they lasted long. The Southern just didn't have the long journey times that made greater dining provision necessary on other routes, and the train length was better employed carrying more passengers. John Edited January 6, 2021 by Dunsignalling 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) I was looking back through that Maunsell stock thread in the Southern Group and spotted a 7 carriage set for Brighton-Cardiff running that was of interest to me , suggest BTK-TK-CK-Dining-TK-CK-BTK but I noticed there was no open carriage, so I wondered if maybe the dining carriage was a Pullman? The only photo I've found of a Brighton-Cardiff services is this which seems to be an interesting mismatch of carriages, hoping we start to see more RTR loose carriages when we're finished with sets Edit: there's so many interesting steam service photos of the railway between Brighton/Shoreham/Barnham/Portsmouth on that site, despite lots of people saying it was almost entirely run on EMUs just need greater variety of RTR carriages and one or two more locos Edited January 6, 2021 by GreenGiraffe22 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 1 minute ago, MartinTrucks said: I do not know what Hornby's precise logic was in producing that vehicle but I suspect that they have tooled up for a post-war buffet conversion of the RFK and required a RCO to pair with it. If one models the mid-1930s, there would doubtless have been a mix of stock: new with simplified lining, revarnishes with full lining, repaints with simplified lining Martin Buffet conversion? I do hope so, but that's even more a can of worms - hardly any two the same! Rakes with mixed liveries? I totally agree, but an awful lot of Hornby's customers either think everything always matched on the real thing or just insist it should on the models they buy. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said: I was looking back through that Maunsell stock thread in the Southern Group and spotted a 7 carriage set for Brighton-Cardiff running that was of interest to me , suggest BTK-TK-CK-Dining-TK-CK-BTK but I noticed there was no open carriage, so I wondered if maybe the dining carriage was a Pullman? The only photo I've found of a Brighton-Cardiff services is this which seems to be an interesting mismatch of carriages, hoping we start to see more RTR loose carriages when we're finished with sets First coach is a Maunsell TK - no ducket. Next three look more like LSWR than Maunsell to me. Fifth is the best candidate for a Restaurant, but has a completely different profile. Not Maunsell, and possibly not even Southern, wasn't that service operated jointly with the GWR? Pretty sure Pullmans weren't used on Brighton-Cardiffs but it's not my most familiar area. After that, my magnifier gives up altogether! In any case, one loco disc is marked SPL, suggesting it's not a normal service, though it could perhaps be a relief. John Edited January 6, 2021 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: First coach is a Maunsell TK - no ducket. Next three look more like LSWR than Maunsell to me. Fifth is the best candidate for a Restaurant, but has a completely different profile. Not Maunsell, and possibly not even Southern, wasn't that service operated jointly with the GWR? After that, my magnifier gives up altogether! John Not sure if this one is heading to Cardiff but the caption suggests it is all GWR stock No idea of any of it is available RTR, the loco certainly isn't... Yet. Edit: ex LSWR 3 sets seem to be extremely frequent on Brighton - Portsmouth services, hoping they might appear one day Edited January 6, 2021 by GreenGiraffe22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said: Not sure if this one is heading to Cardiff but the caption suggests it is all GWR stock No idea of any of it is available RTR, the loco certainly isn't... Yet. Interesting. the two locos are carrying different headcodes, implying different destinations or alternative routes. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 18 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said: Which begs the question why they've tooled this one up unless they plan to make the paired carriage in due course... Perhaps they figure that only a few RMwebbers will worry about it. After all, if generic coaches are 'good enough', the sky's the limit! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul.Uni Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) Just double checking so that I am clear: SR dining third 7864 (R40030) is not this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/7864.html BR dining composite S7841S (R40031) is this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html Have I got that right? Edited January 6, 2021 by Paul.Uni Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Paul.Uni said: Just double checking so that I am clear: SR dining third 7864 (R40030) is not this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/7864.html BR dining composite S7841S (R40031) is this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html Have I got that right? Depends on the period you are modelling. Same body, different seating arrangement. Dining thirds were reclassified as open thirds in 1930 and renumbered into the 13xx series as per the Bluebell coach and notes. They then carried no catering branding and were no longer necessarily used as such (though some probably were, at least some of the time) until being converted to RCOs post-WW2. AIUI, they were thereafter used with either Kitchen Firsts as modelled by Hornby, modified Kitchen Firsts (not as modelled by Hornby) and BR Buffet car conversions (ditto), varying by date and line. Bear in mind though, that by the time they became RCOs, both they and the RKs were being displaced from the most prestigious services by Bulleid Tavern Car sets. Thus, if you want to create 100% correct pairings, your right answer is unlikely to be the same as my right answer, and if you model the Bluebell, there'll be a different answer again! John Edited January 6, 2021 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingleycustom Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 50 minutes ago, Paul.Uni said: Just double checking so that I am clear: SR dining third 7864 (R40030) is not this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/7864.html BR dining composite S7841S (R40031) is this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html Have I got that right? 7864 is a Dining Saloon, or Restaurant First Kitchen. 7866/1365/S7841S is one of the Dining Thirds as rebuilt (twice!). From that same site, this quote explains some of the story: In late 1930 the first of the new diagram 2005 Open Thirds (like 1336) appeared and these were coupled to additional new-build First Class Kitchen/Dining Saloons. They also frequently took the place of the 1927 dining saloons, which were then reclassified as Open Thirds for general service in 1930, 7866 being renumbered 1365. The released number series (7864-9) was re-used in 1932 for new kitchen/restaurant cars. ... bit of a minefield and as I have stated before there were only six of them. Glenn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Paul.Uni said: Just double checking so that I am clear: SR dining third 7864 (R40030) is not this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/7864.html BR dining composite S7841S (R40031) is this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html Sort of! P 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainwright1 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) Just checking. Is the preserved car at the Bluebell Railway dismantled pending restoration. I believe that there was a lot of rot that required attention and also a great deal of money needing to be raised to be able to rebuild it as a fully functional catering vehicle to modern standards. Ray Edited January 6, 2021 by wainwright1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 9 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said: ......... hoping we start to see more RTR loose carriages when we're finished with sets ....... Loose coaches on the Southern ? ................. take a look at Gould's Maunsell Coaches book and you'll find very few apart from Corridor Thirds, Open Thirds and more Corridor Thirds ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 12 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said: Loose coaches on the Southern ? ................. take a look at Gould's Maunsell Coaches book and you'll find very few apart from Corridor Thirds, Open Thirds and more Corridor Thirds ! Indeed. We are told that even if there was a fault on only one coach, the whole set would be TOS until it was rectified. Plenty of loose BCKs, of course. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: Buffet conversion? I do hope so, but that's even more a can of worms - hardly any two the same! Yes please, save me doing one from the Kirk kit I have in the drawer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 Yes, plenty of BCKs in the west...... and, of course, the majority of 'Nondescripts' were loose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 7 hours ago, Paul.Uni said: Just double checking so that I am clear: SR dining third 7864 (R40030) is not this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/7864.html BR dining composite S7841S (R40031) is this coach at Bluebell https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html Have I got that right? Sorry, have been involved in other things today. YES! You are correct. The numbering confused me for a long while! Best regards, Martin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: Loose coaches on the Southern ? ................. take a look at Gould's Maunsell Coaches book and you'll find very few apart from Corridor Thirds, Open Thirds and more Corridor Thirds ! Some examples where there appear to be extra carriages as strengtheners in front of sets... Unless they are the open and corridor thirds you mention https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tender-locomotives/LBSCR-H2/i-HhcRfsB https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LSWR-tender-engines/i-vxnMVXn https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tank-engines/i-bLspFzd https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tank-engines/i-qMdqg3c https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tender-locomotives/LBSCR-B4X/i-6qXkQJd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 7, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said: Some examples where there appear to be extra carriages as strengtheners in front of sets... Unless they are the open and corridor thirds you mention https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tender-locomotives/LBSCR-H2/i-HhcRfsB https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LSWR-tender-engines/i-vxnMVXn https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tank-engines/i-bLspFzd https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tank-engines/i-qMdqg3c https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tender-locomotives/LBSCR-B4X/i-6qXkQJd All the Maunsells are TKs, none of the rest are Maunsells, which is the topic under discussion. The first is some sort of pre-grouping saloon, as is the last but one. All saloons were "loose" and the only Maunsell equivalent was the TO. The last is a brake third, and is followed by (I think) a composite, which pairing may constitute a separate portion rather than being strengtheners as such. Again, neither is a Maunsell. Lots of pre-grouping coaches became loose after the sets they were in were in had been replaced with new Maunsells. The point of various earlier posts is that loose Maunsell stock mainly consisted of a limited number of types, TO, TK, BCK. There were small numbers of "loose" BTKs and CKs, but (AIUI) those were normally used in making up temporary sets for special workings or in times of extreme demand. John Edited January 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now