YORK for York Show 2023 and beyond

[Sithlord75]

To be honest this layout is becoming one which will be joining the list of "must see" 2mm ones.  Trouble is, I'm 10 hours in the future on GMT! 

[St Enodoc]

29 minutes ago, Sithlord75 said:

To be honest this layout is becoming one which will be joining the list of "must see" 2mm ones.  Trouble is, I'm 10 hours in the future on GMT! 

It's not all that big. It should fit in an overhead luggage bin...

[Sithlord75]

2 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

It's not all that big. It should fit in an overhead luggage bin...

Got to be allowed into Fortress Australia however 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Sithlord75

[St Enodoc]

9 minutes ago, Sithlord75 said:

Got to be allowed into Fortress Australia however 

Yes, I'm a bit concerned about whether I'll be able to get into Fortress SA in September.

[kirmies]

Progress on the roof ends:

The etches have gone together remarkably well - I always expect to come across some idiotic mistake I’ve made which renders the whole lot unbuildable but this time, so far, nothing more than a couple of minor things.

The taper from prototype arch to the ‘peeled open’ which will allow viewing of the interior is starting to become apparent - 5 of the 12 transverse beams that make up the end section so far added:

As a reminder of what this will look like when completed here’s the mock up from approximate the same angle:

I think (hope) the ‘roof taper profile’ has improved quite a bit since the mock up was made.

More to follow..........

 

[kirmies]

One of the key things needed for this layout to be convincing is the slow running of the locos. Since virtually all trains will stop in the station, being able to come to a halt and pull away smoothly and seamlessly is very important and for this to happen smooth ultra slow running is needed to get to and from stationary.

 

The chassis I've been building are milled from solid metal and fitted with Association 21:1 gears using a fold up gearbox I've drawn and had etched. The thinking behind this relatively low ratio is to produce a simple, single stage gearbox that (hopefully) will run smoothly long term whilst leaving the maximum amount of room in the boiler and firebox for adding weight:

Initially, I tried the original tender fitted Dapol motor. This was 'not bad' in terms of its smooth, slow running but not as good as I was hoping for. I have some Maxon RE10 motors so next tried one of those - better but still not ideal.

 

Then I started thinking laterally: the Bog Boys on my American O-scale layout 'Laramie Engine Terminal' are driven by 25:1 gearboxes on each 8-coupled engines connected to the motor via a propshaft/universal drive. I have replaced the original massive open framed 9-pole motors (state of the art mid-1960s) with Maxon gearmotors with an in-line 4:1 gearbox giving an overall reduction of about 100:1 which produces amazingly smooth slow running. These are far too big to fit in the Gresley tenders but maybe a smaller gearmotor would do the trick.

 

Then I remembered the small cheap Chinese gearmotor my good mate Andy Ross (Trams & Locos) had given me to try. He uses these to power his cranes. It fits neatly inside the Gresley tender body with just enought room behind it for a micro DCC chip:

 

The flywheel at the front helps with smooth running whilst providing a way of connecting the Dapol universal drive yoke to the fairly chunky 3mm output shaft from the gearbox. These gearmotors are available in a variety of voltages and ratios and cost a few pounds each. This one is 12V and gives a maximum speed of 4000RPM so I'm guessing has a ratio of 4 or 5:1 giving a total motor to driving wheel reduction of between 80 and 100:1.

This works BRILLIANTLY:

Exactly what I was looking for (please note the video is  real time NOT slow motion!). It does mean the maximum speed of the locos is 25-30MPH but, since the speed limit throught the station in the 1930s was 20MPH, this is not a problem. Also the motor and geartrain is quite noisy once it gets up to speed but, since 'This is York' is an exhibition layout, this is also not a problem as it will be inaudible above the hubbub of a show.

So....................RESULT!

The only snag is these gearmotors are too big to fit in any tender smaller than a Gresley 8-wheeler so another solution will need to be found for those!

Edited May 31, 2022 by kirmies
Re-adding photos

[Ian Morgan]

Wot? No wheelslip?

 

 

[kirmies]

Wheel slip? It’s a light engine!

[2mm Andy]

9 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

Wot? No wheelslip?

 

 

 

It's not a Bulleid light pacific you know! 

 

Andy

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

On 02/08/2021 at 08:22, kirmies said:

One of the key things needed for this layout to be convincing is the slow running of the locos. Since virtually all trains will stop in the station, being able to come to a halt and pull away smoothly and seamlessly is very important and for this to happen smooth ultra slow running is needed to get to and from stationary.

.......

 

Then I remembered the small cheap Chinese gearmotor my good mate Andy Ross (Trams & Locos) had given me to try. He uses these to power his cranes. It fits neatly inside the Gresley tender body with just enought room behind it for a micro DCC chip:

 

.....................

The only snag is these gearmotors are too big to fit in any tender smaller than a Gresley 8-wheeler so another solution will need to be found for those!

 

If you dig around this site, and find Giles Flavell's stuff on radio controlled narrow gauge, he's using small motors with an inline planetary gearbox.  Chinese ones.   Which are the same concept as those Tim Watson has used in the past to re-motor the old Poole designed Farish items, except I think some of Tim's were Swiss motor-gearboxes, with Swiss prices.   

 

I think that approach will give you what you need for smaller tender locos, and may work on some tank locos.  

 

 

I'd written off the N20 motor/gearboxes for 2mm use as too big.   I first saw them referenced in the 3mm Society magazine some years back as a way of making motor drives in 3mm scale.   I've used them quite a bit for 4mm trackside stuff - turntables, cranes, etc..   They work well, if your environment doesn't have to worry about the noise. 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Nigelcliffe

[kirmies]

Nigel,

 

Thanks for that - much the same conclusion I'd come to - pointing me towards Glies's stuff will, I'm sure, help me track down suitable micro gearmotors without, as you say, having to pay Swiss prices.

 

In fact the N20 gearmotors are of more use than I thought and will fit into smaller tenders than the Gresley 8-wheelers:

From left to right:

• Dapol Great Northern Gresley 8-wheeled tender body
• Dapol LNER group standard 6-wheeled tender body (from a B1 destined for a K3)
• Great Northern 3150 gallon 6-wheeled tender (ATSO 3D print for a J6)

As can be seen, there's plenty of room for a DCC chip and a flywheel in the Gresley tender, the LNER group standard will be a somewhat tighter fit but should be okay and there just might not be enough room to make the N20 work in the GN tender even though it will fit in the body shell. In each case the final drive shaft will be trimmed. 

Anything smaller than the GN tender will definitely need something smaller.

Edited May 31, 2022 by kirmies
Re-adding photos

[Andy Ross]

Pete. 
 

I have got one like this from eBay 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-3V-46-RPM-6mm-Micro-Coreless-Planetary-Gearbox-Speed-Reducer-Gear-Motor-/232995429994?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

 

This is, I think Giles uses in his small vans. 
 

andy

[Michael Edge]

I'm not sure that the flywheel will add anything much to these motor/gearboxes, they are impossible to turn backwards. Do yours finish with a worm drive in the loco? I've only used them with a 1:1 skew or bevel gear and they do scream a bit at high speed (but quiet and smooth at low speed).

[kirmies]

16 hours ago, Trams and Locos said:

Pete. 
 

I have got one like this from eBay 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-3V-46-RPM-6mm-Micro-Coreless-Planetary-Gearbox-Speed-Reducer-Gear-Motor-/232995429994?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

 

This is, I think Giles uses in his small vans. 
 

andy

Andy,

 

Thanks for the link. It has a maximum 46rpm final drive which, with my 21:1 gearbox in the loco would produce a max. speed of around 2 revs of the driving wheels a minute which is, perhaps, taking slow running a but far!

But.......other gear ratios are available and I've just ordered a couple of ones which give a 6400rpm max output equivalent to a max loco speed of around 40MPH. 

[kirmies]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I'm not sure that the flywheel will add anything much to these motor/gearboxes, they are impossible to turn backwards. Do yours finish with a worm drive in the loco? I've only used them with a 1:1 skew or bevel gear and they do scream a bit at high speed (but quiet and smooth at low speed).

Mike,

 

Yes, a 21:1 worm drive in the loco so the inline gearbox on the motor is only about 5:1 meaning the ouptut shaft is easily turned by hand. The original idea for the flywheel was just to provide a way of getting from the 3mm diameter shaft coming out of the inline gearbox to one end of the flexible drive to the loco.

But I reckon it does make a difference (the output on the shaft can reach 6000rpm) as it seems to provide enough momentum to be a bit of a 'physical stay-alive'. Whether this is actual flywheel effect or just the extra weight in the tender providing better contact between wheels and track I'm not sure - it's probably a bit of both!

[Michael Edge]

 

19 minutes ago, kirmies said:

Mike,

 

Yes, a 21:1 worm drive in the loco so the inline gearbox on the motor is only about 5:1 meaning the ouptut shaft is easily turned by hand. The original idea for the flywheel was just to provide a way of getting from the 3mm diameter shaft coming out of the inline gearbox to one end of the flexible drive to the loco.

But I reckon it does make a difference (the output on the shaft can reach 6000rpm) as it seems to provide enough momentum to be a bit of a 'physical stay-alive'. Whether this is actual flywheel effect or just the extra weight in the tender providing better contact between wheels and track I'm not sure - it's probably a bit of both!

That should be OK then - all the ones I've used have very low ratio boxes, something like 300:1 or so.

[CF MRC]

Motor-gearboxes are standard fodder on CF. We started using Portescaps with gear heads 20 years ago in the A4 tenders, whilst the smaller Maxon 8x16 motor and 1:4 gearbox is a straight replacement in the old Poole mechanisms (as mentioned by Nigel). More recently I have played with a 6mm diameter version in a narrow gauge engine and will probably use another in a GNR J13 re-chassis which will have a very big ‘stay alive’ in it: RC & battery power. Flywheels really need to be at the high speed end of the gear train to be effective. 

 

Tim

Edited August 5, 2021 by CF MRC

[kirmies]

Further progress on roof construction:

Given how complex an etch it is, I was amazed how well it went together with the first test etch: somehow I expected some fairly major errors. But, no, although there were a few mistakes, nothing serious enough to prevent assembly and now I have about a third of the roof completed, seen here on the test section of baseboard, it's possible to see what it will look like when complete:

The end screens have turned out particularly well:

..and the columns with 3D printed tops and bottoms courtesy of Simon Thompson really set it off. Although the transverse beams as it tapers down are (as seen here) much wider than prototype, when viewed from a normal viewing angle, this is not so obvious:

Next step is a test section of the rear wall to work out how to build that.......

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by kirmies
Re-adding photos

[kirmies]

How can it be over TWO MONTHS since I last posted on this thread?

People must be wondering what has happened and be waiting patiently (or perhaps incrreasingly less patiently) for an update.

 

I can cite two reasons for this lengthy gap:

1. Everything takes longer than anticipated - many are the jobs you think will take an hour and take all day, few are the ones that you think will take all day but only take an hour.
2. LIFE gets in the way of modelling. This has been happening a lot recently in the Kirmond household. Sometimes it's because good and positive things happen e.g. going to see our daughter who lives in Munich for the first time in nearly two years. All too often it's because something less than positive is going on (examples too many and tedious to relate).

BUT, I can report progress has been made. First of all, the main baseboard for the station roofed area is taking shape:

• A flat surface is absolutely crucial to good baseboard assembly and the flattest surface in our house is the peninsula worktop in the kitchen - a takeaway only catering service was provided during this stage of construction with the actual surface protected with a layer on lining paper!
• 
• Those familiar with the underside of my old layout 'Blea Moor' may well notice some reuse of weight saving holy plywood!
• Once the basic structure was flat and rigid, further progress could be right way up:
• The fascia was added:
• Cross beams to support the 'lid' and make the whole thing even more rigid:
• And finally the 'lid' fitted. This will protect the etched roof from damage during transporting, keep off the dust and provide a convenient place to mount the lights (LED strip).
• Having discovered with the test section of baseboard that I was not going to be able to cut the curved pieces any where near accurately enough, they have been CNC routed. Laser cutting would have been just as effective but I couldn't find a local supplier of the birch ply I wanted who also had a laser cutter.......but I could find one with a CNC router!
• This does now start to give an idea of what the view will be like:
• More to follow.......

Edited May 31, 2022 by kirmies
Re-adding photos

[kirmies]

The rake of Barnums is approaching completion - two of the seven seen here:

These are Recreation 21 3D print bodies from Shapeways, 2mm Association Midland bogies adapted to make them a bit more Great Central in appearance and scratchbuilt/custom etched everything else:

They still need door handles, interiors, couplings and corridor connectors plus the brakes need the characteristic grills they had over the windows but I'm quite pleased with how they're turning out:

They were a fairly common sight at York up to the late 30s passing through on excursion workings from the midlands to various Yorkshire east coast resorts.

Edited May 31, 2022 by kirmies
re-adding photos

[MrSimon]

The finish on the coaches is incredible - love the worn wood on the guards door!  Do you have a secret recipe for painting the teak?  
 

Thanks for sharing!

Simon

[kirmies]

This weekend has been a key moment in the gestation of 'This is York' - putting together the baseboard and the etched roof sections with two key questions:

• Will they fit?
• Will it look as I imagined/hoped it would?

Given that this is the culmination of work that has taken up most of my modelling time  this year the prospect of doing this was quite exciting and decidedly tense at one and the same time.

 

So......how did it go?

 

Day 1: fit the 9 sections of roof previously mounted on the test section of baseboard:

On the whole pretty good - one or two minor adjustments needed but nothing too serious or catastrophic.

 

Days 2 & 3: gradually adding on 15 more roof sections (each one consisting of three cross beams - all that soldering!).

This can best be summarised in a kind of time lapse video:

 

I am well chuffed! Here's what the final position at the end of the 3 day event looks like:

This leaves the 4 column section of taper at this end to build and then the back wall (oh, and everything else that remains to be done!). 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by kirmies
Re-adding photos

[kirmies]

On 11/11/2021 at 09:05, MrSimon said:

The finish on the coaches is incredible - love the worn wood on the guards door!  Do you have a secret recipe for painting the teak?  
 

Thanks for sharing!

Simon

Thanks for those kind words Simon. My recipe for painting the teak is not secret, it's based on Maryn Welch's technique (see Model Railway Journal Issue 176 (2007)!

In simple terms this involves first spraying the coach sides the sort of orange VW beetles used to be painted. Then streaking the grain using Humbrol gloss black  and a very skinny (and worn) brush, then doing the same thing with Ronseal walnut or mahogany (NOT TEAK) coloured varnish and then spraying with gloss varnish for the decals. After decals are applied, spray with satin varnish. The worn wood effect is done after this using weathering powders fixed with powder fixative.

Hope this helps!

[Andy Ross]

9 minutes ago, kirmies said:

This weekend has been a key moment in the gestation of 'This is York' - putting together the baseboard and the etched roof sections with two key questions:

• Will they fit?
• Will it look as I imagined/hoped it would?

Given that this is the culmination of work that has taken up most of my modelling time  this year the prospect of doing this was quite exciting and decidedly tense at one and the same time.

 

So......how did it go?

 

Day 1: fit the 9 sections of roof previously mounted on the test section of baseboard:

On the whole pretty good - one or two minor adjustments needed but nothing too serious or catastrophic.

 

Days 2 & 3: gradually adding on 15 more roof sections (each one consisting of three cross beams - all that soldering!).

This can best be summarised in a kind of time lapse video:

 

I am well chuffed! Here's what the final position at the end of the 3 day event looks like:

This leaves the 4 column section of taper at this end to build and then the back wall (oh, and everything else that remains to be done!). 

 

Pete 

 

That has come together really well. 
 

I think it has totally worked. 
 

Andy

[Caley Jim]

That is indeed an impressive piece of work, Pete!  Really looking the part!    

 

Jim