Advice requested on hand building 0-MF points.

[Dmudriver]

Hi.  

 

I have been building my layout for some 9 years now and have it running how I want it.  However, I now want to refine it by improving the pointwork.  

 

On the "visible" section of the layout, the pointwork falls into 3 categories: 1) the station throat which consists of  4 points and a single slip, all built by me from C&L B6 kits;  2) a trailing crossover on a curve, again built by me from C&L kits (possibly 2xC10, but I can't be sure without further checking) and 3) access to sidings and a stabling point using Peco points.  The plain track is all bullhead Peco Streamline.  [The fiddle yard pointwork is all Peco and I am quite happy with that.]

 

The running through all the pointwork is acceptable but a bit rough in places: however, with a (nominal (!!) 10 mph speed limit) there are few derailments.  The points and single slip in 1) were built as separate units and fitted together later.  They used the C&L prefabricated common crossings.  The trailing crossover was built in situ, but still using the C&L prefabricated common crossings.  I have altered the look of the Peco tiebars but otherwise those points are standard Peco.  All points are operated by Tortoise motors.  Originally I wanted to build to 31.5mm clearances but did not feel I had the skill to do that, so went for the prefabricated common crossings.  I used the Peco points as I had them available from a previous layout and frankly, didn't want to waste them!!  Plus, I got the layout built more quickly. 

 

What I want to do is replace them all using 0-MF clearances and building each set of pointwork as one unit off the board.  I envisage replacing the Peco points first, then the trailing crossover and finally the station throat.  I want to design them all using Templot and I have just started to try and learn how to use it - I have printed off my first B6 template.

 

So, the advice I am looking for is:

 

• where do I obtain 0-MF gauges from?  I know they can be obtained, but I can't find where from! 
• I'd also like some of those jigs used for filing rails to the correct angle - for point blades and common crossings.  Where would I get those from?  And are they specific to a particular rail section/code?
• then there is the question of which rail to use: I want it to join up to the Peco Streamline.  The Peco and C&L rails are different sections but I have had little difficulty joining them together - I soldered the C&L etched fishplates to one rail only.  (I use fishplates/rail joiners purely for alignment, not electrical continuity).  Peco do 2 rail sections - codes 124 and 143, Marcway have different rail sections and then there's C&L!  It looks like the Marcway can only be used with copper clad sleepers: I have no objection to that, but do the sleeper heights match the Peco track?
• finally, there's the cost of doing it all!! So the most economical way would be most appealing.  I've time - not only with the lockdown, but I'll be building them off-board so there's no real pressure related to getting running.  I want to enjoy the journey!!

 

I hope I'm not asking too much but my previous experience has taught me some lessons and I'd like to get things better this time - for running mainly, but also looks!!

 

With thanks in advance.

 

 

Rod

 

PS  I've also seen that Greenwood Model Railway Products are now doing point kits: has anyone any experience of those?

[martin_wynne]

9 minutes ago, Dmudriver said:

where do I obtain 0-MF gauges from? 

 

See: https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/1173/7a3150-track-gauge-for-31-5mm/

 

Martin.

[bgman]

47 minutes ago, Dmudriver said:

where do I obtain 0-MF gauges from?  I know they can be obtained, but I can't find where from! 

 

47 minutes ago, Dmudriver said:

PS  I've also seen that Greenwood Model Railway Products are now doing point kits: has anyone any experience of those?

 

Hi John,

 

As Martin suggests the gauges I have also used are the fold up ones from Roxey Mouldings, very useful and reasonably priced too.

 

Here are a couple posed on a Greenwood point kit...

 

 

 

On my proposed small layout I have used these throughout and as a whole kit I have found them to be extremely easy to build and almost fool proof. There are laser cut gauges supplied but I prefer to use the Roxey ones. With respect to other products they were readily available when I ordered them ( ordered on a Monday arrived Thursday same week ) they have a pre-built frog and the chairs are extremely easy to slide onto the rail. One other main factor to me was the price being approx. half that of another well known supplier.

 

**I'd also like some of those jigs used for filing rails to the correct angle - for point blades and common crossings.  Where would I get those from?  And are they specific to a particular rail section/code?**

 

I meant to add that the rails included in the Greenwood kits are pre-filed so it takes that part of the build away too.

I understand that all the kits are cut using Templot as a basis so they are pretty good in that respect if you wish to use it as a template for a new layout.

 

Another general view of the pointwork etc just laid in position.....

 

  

 

I hope this helps and wish you well.

 

G

Edited January 10, 2021 by bgman
addition information

[Eveannessant]

Great stuff, but a common crossing jig would be a most useful tool, perhaps similar to the 00 gauge DCC Concepts jigs, which I've found to be exceptionally useful. Now building 0 gauge I find that it's such a struggle to find equivalent items that I just took for granted in 00 gauge. 

 

Yes 0 gauge is enchanting and I'm slowly turning...............

 

Cheers,

 

Eve

 

[ozzyo]

Have a look on here, Trackmaking - Scale 7 ( GroupHome - Scale 7 Group (scaleseven.org.uk)  Then go to group stores. 

You do have to be a member to buy them but if you want them you just pay.

The common crossing filling jigs are No 9 -12 the point rail filling jig is No 21. 

The assembly jigs for the common crossing are numbered 61-15 to 64-15.

My first attempts using the jigs.

 

Hope this helps,

 

OzzyO.

Edited February 20, 2022 by ozzyo

[Andy Reichert]

Given the almost double size of UK O compared to 00. And the much higher vehicle weights, I presume it is very straightforward and reliable to just go to near scale flange ways and wheels of S7 or the like, and not have to worry about having visible well over scale crossing flange ways at all. 

 

Andy

[ozzyo]

The point vees that I shown are for 31.5mm track gauge (O MF). This means that we can run RTR locos and stock with out having to change the wheel sets, but to also get a better look around the point vees and check rails.

 

ATB

 

OzzyO.

[hayfield]

On 20/02/2022 at 07:24, ozzyo said:

The point vees that I shown are for 31.5mm track gauge (O MF). This means that we can run RTR locos and stock with out having to change the wheel sets, but to also get a better look around the point vees and check rails.

 

ATB

 

OzzyO.

 

Its the relation between the flangeway gap and track gauge that allows this,

 

The Vee will be the same whichever standard/gauge is chosen

[ozzyo]

On 02/03/2022 at 09:11, hayfield said:

 

Its the relation between the flangeway gap and track gauge that allows this,

 

The Vee will be the same whichever standard/gauge is chosen

 

The vee will be the same but the relationship between the vee and the wing rails and the check rails and the running rails is better, as we're making the track to 31.5mm the check and wing rail gaps are 1.5mm, if you were to do the same at 32mm gauge I think that the wing and check rail gaps would be 1.75mm, if these were made to 33mm track gauge the wing and check rail gaps would be 1.02mm?

 

Also using 31.5 you don't get the wheel drop over the point vee that you get with Peco points.

 

OzzyO.  

[hayfield]

Ozzyo

 

We are talking about the same thing, the vee is the same for every gauge variant, example a 1-6 vee is exactly the same whether you are using 31.5mm, 32mm or 33mm gauge. However its the relation of wing, check and stock rails within the common crossing where the difference lies. 33mm gauge (Scale 7) will also have the same if not better affect with wheel drop, as the wing and check rail gaps are even finer than 0MF

 

But in the end, yes it not only looks better but also performs better

[jim.snowdon]

On 03/03/2022 at 15:34, hayfield said:

33mm gauge (Scale 7) will also have the same if not better affect with wheel drop, as the wing and check rail gaps are even finer than 0MF

And almost identical (I doubt you could see the difference) with the 0-SF standard - 31.25mm gauge, with 1.25mm flangeways.

 

[hayfield]

9 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

And almost identical (I doubt you could see the difference) with the 0-SF standard - 31.25mm gauge, with 1.25mm flangeways.

 

 

Jim

 

Thank you for the input, my knowledge of 7mm scale gauges is quite limited. But at a previous club one of the members decided to use a 32mm gauge with finer tolerance crossings. As you would expect it resulted in a bit of a dogs dinner. Full marks for wanting better looking and performing crossings, but making up your own your own standards is fraught with danger. 

[martin_wynne]

36 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Jim

 

Thank you for the input, my knowledge of 7mm scale gauges is quite limited. But at a previous club one of the members decided to use a 32mm gauge with finer tolerance crossings. As you would expect it resulted in a bit of a dogs dinner. Full marks for wanting better looking and performing crossings, but making up your own your own standards is fraught with danger. 

 

Hi John,

 

The usual problem is that folks focus on the track gauge, and work from there. In fact the important dimension is the check gauge. Don't change that -- then the wheels will fit. For 0 gauge keep the check gauge at 30.0mm. For 00 gauge keep it at 15.2mm.

 

Then decide your flangeway gap. Add it on to the check gauge to find the track gauge.

 

So for example if you wanted to try 1.6mm flangeways in 0 -- add that on to 30.0mm = 30.0 + 1.6 = 31.6mm track gauge.

 

Or say to try 1.1mm flangeways in 00 -- add that on to 15.2mm = 15.2 + 1.1 = 16.3mm track gauge.

 

Obviously there is a minimum you can go on the track gauge, depending on the wheel flange thickness and the radius of the sharpest curves.

 

But don't change your wheels -- that way your stock remains runnable on other layouts, and other stock remains runnable on your layout.

 

But your layout track gauge doesn't need to be the same as anyone else's, it can be whatever you want -- forget the traditional modellers fixation on track gauge, I don't know where it came from. All that fuss about 18.83mm in the last century, and about 16.2mm in this one. 🙂

 

The track gauge doesn't even need to be the same all over -- user finer settings for the gentle curves through the station, and wider settings on the sharp curves in the fiddle yard.

 

Concentrate instead on keeping the check gauge the same everywhere -- on your layout and everyone else's.

 

Martin.

Edited April 10, 2022 by martin_wynne
typo

[hayfield]

20 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

The usual problem is that folks focus on the track gauge, and work from there. In fact the important dimension is the check gauge. Don't change that -- then the wheels will fit. For 0 gauge keep the check gauge at 30.0mm. For 00 gauge keep it at 15.2mm.

 

Then decide your flangeway gap. Add it on to the check gauge to find the track gauge.

 

So for example if you wanted to try 1.6mm flangeways in 0 -- add that on to 30.0mm = 30.0 + 1.6 = 31.6mm track gauge.

 

Or say to try 1.1mm flangeways in 00 -- add that on to 15.2mm = 15.2 + 1.1 = 16.3mm track gauge.

 

Obviously there is a minimum you can go on the track gauge, depending on the wheel flange thickness and the radius of the sharpest curves.

 

But don't change your wheels -- that way your stock remains runnable on other layouts, and other stock remains runnable on your layout.

 

But your layout track gauge doesn't need to be the same as anyone else's, it can be whatever you want -- forget the traditional modellers fixation on track gauge, I don't know where it came from. All that fuss about 18.83mm in the last century, and about 16.2mm in this one. 🙂

 

The track gauge doesn't even need to be the same all over -- user finer settings for the gentle curves through the station, and wider settings on the sharp curves in the fiddle yard.

 

Concentrate instead on keeping the check gauge the same everywhere -- on your layout and everyone else's.

 

Martin.

 

As a track builder my biggest beef is the lack of additional track gauges, easy to get roller gauges, but check and wing rail gauges !!

 

Also why do roller gauges have to have built in check gauges ? or at least one side without !! 

[Happy Hippo]

The other alternative to stop the wheel drop is to make inserts that fit into the crossing noses.

 

This is probably cheaper and a lot quicker as there is not dismantling and re erecting of crossing noses.

 

Yes, it's a bit of a bodge, but it does reduce or even stop the dreaded wheel drop.

 

Parliamentary Trains  make drop in units for Peco  turnouts.

 

The Drop stop:  http://www.parlytrains.co.uk/pds.html

 

When I moved up to 7 mm from 4 mm, I bit the bullet and used Peco plain track and then made up my own turnouts to 31.5 through the crossing nose.

 

There is a definite improvement, but both Martin and Jim's comments are worthy of further experimentation for the next set of turnouts I build.

 

Much as I would like to do S7, the thought of re gauging and re wheeling everything puts me off going down that route.

 

If I were 30 years younger and starting in 7 mm Scale, then maybe.  But now....

[martin_wynne]

2 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

The other alternative to stop the wheel drop is to make inserts that fit into the crossing noses.

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

There are two problems with that:

 

1. it will work only if all wheels have the same flange depth. That's not always the case.

 

2. in order to support the wheel flange, the wheel will be lifted fractionally off the rail, interrupting the electrical pickup. To work reliably, the flangeway infill needs to be metallic.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

 

We are talking about hand built track, not modifying RTR. Its a lot easier to do it correctly without adding any additional processes.

 

Usually people require both better running and looks

[ROSSPOP]

I`ve recently taken a slightly unauthodox 7mm track building route using a very poorly made set of   O-MF gauges.

The unauthodox bit is that I have used Peco Individulay code 125 crossing , switch  and rail parts but C&L two bolt chairs and ply sleepers.

The method is the usual approach........

 

 

 

 

 

A set of five points ready for a `quicky` project...............

 

 

[hayfield]

Rosspop

 

A great bit of modelling, and nothing wrong using products from various companies, in fact I do that most of the time

 

I myself would change the bent timber (0) for one long straight one.

 

I do like your use of the copperclad pads, I assume they are glued to the timbers ?

[ROSSPOP]

Thanks Hayfield,

I don`t  like wastage so I used all my accumulated trackwork stuff . I`ve taken advantage ,I hope, of the slightly reduced length of Peco pointwork geometry. They are not strictly GWR practice but after ballast and paint only hardened followers will notice.

 

The copper pads are applied using Gorilla  Superglue ( blue cap)

 

John

[hayfield]

58 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said:

Thanks Hayfield,

I don`t  like wastage so I used all my accumulated trackwork stuff . I`ve taken advantage ,I hope, of the slightly reduced length of Peco pointwork geometry. They are not strictly GWR practice but after ballast and paint only hardened followers will notice.

 

The copper pads are applied using Gorilla  Superglue ( blue cap)

 

John

 

 

John

 

Thanks its very interesting,

 

You could try using Templot for plans, and if you go to the Templot Club Forum there is always someone wishing to help. The GWR had small switches (we use them for 1-5 turnouts rather than A switches)

 

Also you can set the V angles at a slightly different angle either by taking off a bit of metal with a file, or filling the gap with a bit of solder. The wing rails may need a bit of a tweak as well

[ROSSPOP]

I`ve got and used Templot in my 4mm times John, but I wanted to work quickly and effortlessly. These turnouts were completed over four evenings at the kitchen table...... using my new cordless soldering iron.....

 

 

I think they compare reasonably with my previous C&L finescale kits......

 

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

10 hours ago, ROSSPOP said:

I`ve recently taken a slightly unauthodox 7mm track building route using a very poorly made set of   O-MF gauges.

0-MF gauges are available from Roxey Mouldings. These are etched nickel silver and were designed to allow our club to build our large exhibition layout (Grindley Brook). Being etched, they cost a fraction of the cost of roller gauges (which quite honestly, offer no particular benefits). Costs may have increased as the price of brass and related metals has gone up, but last time I looked, you got three gauges for about a fiver.

 

For setting wing rails, all I use is a length of 1.5mm stripwood. Basic, but accurate enough and unsolderable, which is useful when building crossings on copper-clad pads. And that's it in terms of gauges. The Roxey gauge is both a track gauge and a check gauge - there is no need for a flangeway gauge when setting check rails, and on track as small as ours, it is technically the wrong approach.

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

13 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Jim

 

Thank you for the input, my knowledge of 7mm scale gauges is quite limited. But at a previous club one of the members decided to use a 32mm gauge with finer tolerance crossings. As you would expect it resulted in a bit of a dogs dinner. Full marks for wanting better looking and performing crossings, but making up your own your own standards is fraught with danger. 

Not if you know what you are doing, and track standards and engineering has been part of my day job over the years. I'm probably one of very few people on here who has designed tyre profiles for full sized railway vehicles.....

 

Jim

[martin_wynne]

9 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

0-MF gauges are available from Roxey Mouldings. These are etched nickel silver and were designed to allow our club to build our large exhibition layout (Grindley Brook). Being etched, they cost a fraction of the cost of roller gauges (which quite honestly, offer no particular benefits). Costs may have increased as the price of brass and related metals has gone up, but last time I looked, you got three gauges for about a fiver.

 

For setting wing rails, all I use is a length of 1.5mm stripwood. Basic, but accurate enough and unsolderable, which is useful when building crossings on copper-clad pads. And that's it in terms of gauges. The Roxey gauge is both a track gauge and a check gauge - there is no need for a flangeway gauge when setting check rails, and on track as small as ours, it is technically the wrong approach.

 

Jim

 

Roxey 0-MF gauges: https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/1173/7a3150-track-gauge-for-31-5mm/

 

Also gauge-widened for sharp curves: https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/1174/7a3175-track-gauge-for-31-75mm-/

 

Martin.