New range of simple to assemble 00/EM gauge pointwork kits - EM B7 Prototype - First Look

[Jeff Smith]

I can't help thinking that gap discussion is overwhelming the excellence of the rest of the product.

 

The ME (Micro Engineering) 0n30 points similarly have a cast frog and point rails with just an air gap.  I did have a shorting problem once though when I inadvertently pushed a point rail and closed the gap!  Took me a while to find it but once the rail was painted it stayed in place, even with just the simulated spike heads.

[martin_wynne]

10 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

Which is what I did using plastic sheet 0.25mm thick until the rails were fixed in position.

 

Thanks Patrick.

 

Was that bit of plastic supplied in the kit? What did you use to fix the rails? Is there any risk that repeated flexing by the point motor might cause them to work loose, and move?

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

6 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

I did have a shorting problem once though when I inadvertently pushed a point rail and closed the gap!  Took me a while to find it

 

I think that proves the point! A simple gap is not lifetime reliable, fit-and-forget. Other than perhaps using solid-soldered copper-clad construction.

 

Martin.

[dhjgreen]

2 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

I think that proves the point! A simple gap is not lifetime reliable, fit-and-forget. Other than perhaps using solid-soldered copper-clad construction.

 

Martin.

I should have said my pointwork is copper clad, 0.25mm (ish) gap.

[Jeff Smith]

43 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

I think that proves the point! A simple gap is not lifetime reliable, fit-and-forget. Other than perhaps using solid-soldered copper-clad construction.

 

Martin.

But, a drop of superglue in the two nearest chairs should also prevent it..........

[Wayne Kinney]

  

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Hmm. I wonder if you are looking at a different market with these new kits? Anyone who builds their own track in N Gauge, even from kits, is likely to be a reasonably experienced modeller. The 00 kits are going to appeal to many beginners at track building. You are calling them "easy-assemble" kits, which hardly squares with the need to leave a 10 thou gap between the rails -- which is essential for them to work.

 

Hmm. I feel that is a bit exaggerated.

 

You mentioned in an earlier thread:

  

7 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

Slide the rail up to the crossing, pull it back a bit, apply a small amount of epoxy to the end of the crossing with a cocktail stick, gently push the rail forward again into it, go and make a coffee while it sets.

 

If even that is beyond someone, how on Earth will they be able to build the rest of the layout?

 

This comment implies that anyone with the skill to build the rest of the layout, would also have the skill to epoxy fill the gap.

 

I would argue that leaving a 0.25mm air gap is both easier and less steps compared to either epoxy filling OR gluing 0.75mm bits of plastic card strip to rail ends.

 

As I see it, the options were:

 

A: Have pre printed insulation spacers as a part of the base (as previously illustrated) - issue is that to have both a small 0.25mm gap AND be unobtrusive, it would be far too thin and fragile to manufacture.

 

B: Supply 0.25x0.75mm plastic card strip, that the user has to cut to shape, then glue on the ends of the casting rails.

C: Leave a 0.25mm air gap.

 

After reviewing all the above options, the design objective to design an Easy Build kit suitable for inexperienced track builders, in my opinion, option C was the best option.

 

  

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

When you get the phone calls from disappointed users complaining of short-circuits, it will be easier to say "Did you use the plastic strip as explained in the instructions?" than "How wide a gap did you leave? It needs to be at least 10 thou. Did you test it with a multi-meter?"

Please give me a little faith in that I have been manufacturing kits for 9 years now! I do have a little experience, right?

 

Its really good to discuss and try options, that's the designing process and the 3D printing method means fast testing of each idea. That IS a good thing.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Wayne Kinney

[NFWEM57]

22 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Thanks Patrick.

 

Was that bit of plastic supplied in the kit? What did you use to fix the rails? Is there any risk that repeated flexing by the point motor might cause them to work loose, and move?

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Hi Martin,

 

Plastic not supplied in prototype but that is why we build a prototype, to test and correct..!  Have already mentioned that in my feedback to Wayne. I was aware from the N gauge instructions what was required.

 

For this prototype I used SloZap to fix in place.  I would probably use epoxy for a retail kit.  My background is in military maritime engineering.  Everything breaks eventually unless it is seriously over engineered, which even then does not eliminate failure modes but significantly reduces it.  So, fault finding is inevitable..!

 

If you look at the B6 produced for the EMGS by PECO, it is a compromise and you may notice they isolate the switch rails half way toward the toe and the heel and switch rails adjacent to the frog are electrically connected; bit difficult to do in a kit unless you are experienced.  So the PECO solution is an option which the more experienced modeler could implement even with Wayne's kit.  I may do it. 

 

More generally, the people buying the EMGS B6s and Flexi track will likely be more than happy with Wayne's product and those who have issues with it will, in all probability, continue to build their own.  But this product opens up more realistic track work for swathes of OO modelers who want something other than the products PECO makes for the rest of the world, not the UK, and for EM modelers, who may lack track making skills, and having seen and used the EMGS B6s and Flexi want additional turnout to complement the B6's which are easy to make and on a par with, or better than, the current B6s.

 

if there is growing interest in EM due to Wayne's initiative, maybe the volume manufacturers will finally provide the option of EM gauge wheelsets as quite a few smaller producers now do; eg Accurascale.  But you have to generate the customer base and demand - Wayne's product is a catalyst for that.

 

In any project there is a cut off point where you say no more change, go with what we have otherwise nothing gets built..!  So, I agree with Jeff, we're in danger of going down a rabbit hole and delaying production....!

 

Patrick  

[simonmcp]

Okay, so my experience of hand built track is zero but I have laid more yards of Peco for club layouts and and a 10ft X 12ft 4 track two station multi level layout with about 60 points. Wouldn't just painting the ends of the rail and the cast crossing solve any shorting problems?

 

Of course you could always set out to try and make a reliable electrical connection, that usually ensures that it never works in my experience.

 

Wayne, the Points are looking really good and I for one will be ordering some when the initial rush has died down. As you say you have a lot of experience of producing point kits and I think you have pitched the product's skill requirements just right your intended market. Most people can use the internet and find out more information if they need it, especially as I expect you'll put a PDF on your site with any extra instructions that any complete point making dunce like me could refer to.

[martin_wynne]

26 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

More generally, the people buying the EMGS B6s and Flexi track will likely be more than happy

 

Hi Patrick,

 

I agree entirely for EM. But I have a suspicion that the majority of RMwebbers reading this are more interested in the 00 kits. And some of them are very new to trackwork -- see for example the discussion in the other topic about the supposed difficulty in dealing with different sleeper thicknesses.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[KeithHC]

In this day and age maybe Wayne and Patrick could combine and produce a YouTube video. Also no doubt it will be high lighted in the instructions. Maybe a reference to rmweb as well. Wayne you are doing a cracking job I think you should treat this thread as the devil’s advocate I am sure all on here are willing you and these kits to be a great success I am for one.

 

Keith
 

[martin_wynne]

31 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

Please give me a little faith in that I have been manufacturing kits for 9 years now! I do have a little experience, right?

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Agreed, not doubting your knowledge and experience, apologies if I implied that.

 

But I also spent 10 years of my life supplying pointwork kits and components, and another 20 years supporting users of Templot. There are some folks who can't see a stick without getting the wrong end of it, and need constant hand-holding. The trick is to foresee and eliminate every possible thing that they might get wrong.

 

p.s. I said nothing about gluing bits of strip to the end of the rails! That would be a nightmare.

 

My suggestion was a slot in the base web into which a length of strip could be push-fitted. It could then be trimmed flush with the rail-top after assembly.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[KeithHC]

Patrick I agree with you on the question of the future of track standards. I see EM emerging to replace 00 but it will take the major manufacturers to start the offer of alternative wheelsets. Maybe Peco could offer this through its rolling stock partners as a bit of a kick to the big three as they are doing already with track. I must admit I am going through the tussle of 00 or EM. I was brought up looking at Buckingham by Peter Denny and Sid Stubbs large layout with envy but now it maybe possible to consider.

 

Keith

[Wayne Kinney]

  

22 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

Also I suggest a moulded upstand from the base web at F to preserve the isolation gap. It doesn't need to be the full rail height. Easily cut off by those who prefer to use epoxy filler.

  

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

How about supplying a bit of 0.25mm x 0.75mm plastic strip in the kit? User snips a bit off and plugs it into a slot in the base?

 

20 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

My suggestion was a slot in the base web into which a length of strip could be push-fitted. It could then be trimmed flush with the rail-top after assembly.

 

Always hard to interpret comments. So your suggestion was to use the plastic strip as a temporary spacer only, and then remove it? I didn't think that was what you meant, because you said:

  

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

I think that proves the point! A simple gap is not lifetime reliable, fit-and-forget. Other than perhaps using solid-soldered copper-clad construction.

 

Martin.

Or you mean, keeping the plastic spacer in place there, somehow?

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Wayne Kinney

[LBRJ]

10 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

If the upstand was made oversize in all dimensions, it could then be trimmed to fit the rail profile saving the use of, messy in my hands at least, epoxy filler or similar?

 

Mike.

 

Nail varnish is good stuff for the purpose.

I suggest using the clear variety though, not the fluorescent pink....

[Dagworth]

Where I’ve had to cut similar gaps into Peco code 100 points that were already laid I used a razor saw to make the cut, then put a  piece of paper into the gap and used a cocktail stick to apply a small amount of thin superglue to the paper. Once dried and trimmed to shape and painted the insulation is guaranteed and the cut virtually invisible. 
 

Andi

[martin_wynne]

7 minutes ago, Wayne Kinney said:

Or you mean, keeping the plastic spacer in place there, somehow?

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Sorry if I haven't been clear. Bear in mind that I haven't seen these kits, so just throwing out ideas based on what I can see in the pictures.

 

You rejected the idea of a moulded upstand spacer because it would be too fragile. So instead I suggested, as the basis of an idea, not necessarily the final implementation:

 

1. supply a length of plastic strip, say 0.25mm x 0.75mm section. https://evergreenscalemodels.com/collections/14-white-polystrene-strips/products/101-010-x-030-opaque-white-polystyrene-strip

 

2. print a rectangular slot in the base web to match. The web could be thickened a little around the slot if necessary for strength.

 

3. user cuts a rough length say 15mm off the strip for easier handling.

 

4. users pushes end of strip into slot and adds a touch of glue to keep it there.

 

5. user fits cast crossing touching against the strip.

 

6. user fits rail and pushes it up against the strip.

 

7. user applies cyano or paint or whatever to retain the rail.

 

8. user also optionally applies a bit of cyano/paint to the outside edge of the trapped strip.

 

9. when set/dry, user trims top of strip down flush with the rail top. Craft knife or snips.

 

10. experienced user who doesn't like the idea can ignore it.

 

That's probably enough from me for today.

 

Martin.

[Wayne Kinney]

2 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Sorry if I haven't been clear. Bear in mind that I haven't seen these kits, so just throwing out ideas based on what I can see in the pictures.

 

You rejected the idea of a moulded upstand spacer because it would be too fragile. So instead I suggested, as the basis of an idea, not necessarily the final implementation:

 

1. supply a length of plastic strip, say 0.25mm x 0.75mm section. https://evergreenscalemodels.com/collections/14-white-polystrene-strips/products/101-010-x-030-opaque-white-polystyrene-strip

 

2. print a rectangular slot in the base web to match. The web could be thickened a little around the slot if necessary for strength.

 

3. user cuts a rough length say 15mm off the strip for easier handling.

 

4. users pushes end of strip into slot and adds a touch of glue to keep it there.

 

5. user fits cast crossing touching against the strip.

 

6. user fits rail and pushes it up against the strip.

 

7. user applies cyano or paint or whatever to retain the rail.

 

8. user also optionally applies a bit of cyano/paint to the outside edge of the trapped strip.

 

9. when set/dry, user trims top of strip down flush with the rail top. Craft knife or snips.

 

10. experienced user who doesn't like the idea can ignore it.

 

That's probably enough from me for today.

 

Martin.

Hi Martin,

 

Thanks for the 1 to 10 list, sometimes I need that! LOL

 

I think I was merging your separate suggestions, hence the confusion.

 

All clear now, and a good idea indeed! I appreciate all your suggestions.

 

At the end of the day, I definitely want to push for the least amount of assembly steps...

 

Thanks again, mate!

[Jeff Smith]

1 hour ago, KeithHC said:

I see EM emerging to replace 00 but it will take the major manufacturers to start the offer of alternative wheelsets.

This certainly is not an 00 versus EM thread but if you take the simple approach to EM and just re-gauge the 00 wheels you will fall into the same trap as HO, particularly for steam locos, where correctly gauged but over-thick wheels makes the loco too wide......

[martin_wynne]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

This certainly is not an 00 versus EM thread but if you take the simple approach to EM and just re-gauge the 00 wheels you will fall into the same trap as HO, particularly for steam locos, where correctly gauged but over-thick wheels makes the loco too wide......

 

Hi Jeff,

 

EM is not as bad as H0 because:

 

1. 00 RTR wheels are the same width as H0 (2.8mm) so proportionately less overscale at the larger 4mm scale.

 

2. EM track gauge is a little under exact-scale, unlike H0.

 

3. EM layouts use much larger minimum radius than the train-set radii in H0, so less axle side-play needed.

 

4. optimum back-to-back for RTR wheels on EM is 16.4mm, a bit less than the standard EM back-to-back.

 

All this means that most modern RTR models with widened original wheels can be used with reasonable success on EM. The overall wheelset width across the outer faces is only 0.5mm greater than a set of Romford/Markits. Obviously ancient Tri-ang and Trix wheels won't work.

 

Martin.

[NFWEM57]

1 hour ago, KeithHC said:

Patrick I agree with you on the question of the future of track standards. I see EM emerging to replace 00 but it will take the major manufacturers to start the offer of alternative wheelsets. Maybe Peco could offer this through its rolling stock partners as a bit of a kick to the big three as they are doing already with track. I must admit I am going through the tussle of 00 or EM. I was brought up looking at Buckingham by Peter Denny and Sid Stubbs large layout with envy but now it maybe possible to consider.

 

Keith

Hi Keith,

 

Thanks for your response, much appreciated.

 

I only took up the hobby a year ago, train spotting as a child and dreams of a layout and the space to put it in. Half a century on, I decided on an additional hobby and I too was left with a choice. I have an engineering background and almost a year in workshops as an apprentice (in addition to 2 years of theory) armed me with a skill set that is coming in useful.  I have always disliked the narrowness of OO so EM, and most RTR can be converted, was the obvious choice.  Steam is challenging but rewarding but everything else is quite easy. Alan Gibson and Ultrascale make some incredible wheel sets making conversion very simple.

 

I do not regret choosing EM, it requires a bit of effort, but the reward is fantastic.  I am hoping to put my first steam conversion, a  broken Bachmann split chassis OO gauge 4MT I purchased for a few pounds and converted to EM with DCC on my new test track which incorporates Wayne's EM gauge prototype in the next few days.  As someone once said to me decades ago, you will never know what you can do until you try.  And if I am succeeding 51%of the time, I am winning..! There will alway be failure but it is what you take away and learn from failure that counts.  That is how we learn. Give it a go..! There is no such thing as a free dinner.

 

Patrick 

[Jeff Smith]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Jeff,

 

EM is not as bad as H0 because:

 

1. 00 RTR wheels are the same width as H0 (2.8mm) so proportionately less overscale at the larger 4mm scale.

 

2. EM track gauge is a little under exact-scale, unlike H0.

 

3. EM layouts use much larger minimum radius than the train-set radii in H0, so less axle side-play needed.

 

4. optimum back-to-back for RTR wheels on EM is 16.4mm, a bit less than the standard EM back-to-back.

 

All this means that most modern RTR models with widened original wheels can be used with reasonable success on EM. The overall wheelset width across the outer faces is only 0.5mm greater than a set of Romford/Markits. Obviously ancient Tri-ang and Trix wheels won't work.

 

Martin.

Martin,

Thanks for the clarification.  How does the overall width of P4 compare to EM because I have had a few challenges fitting P4 wheels into some white metal loco kits, particularly if with outside motion.

[martin_wynne]

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

How does the overall width of P4 compare to EM because I have had a few challenges fitting P4 wheels into some white metal loco kits, particularly if with outside motion.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

White-metal loco kits are always the worst. Easier with etched kits.

 

Wheelset width over tyres:

 

EM with EMGS/Gibson wheels = 21.2mm

EM with Romford/Markits wheels = 21.5mm

EM with 00 RTR wheels = 22.0mm

 

P4 loco wheels = 21.75mm

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[NFWEM57]

18 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Jeff,

 

White-metal loco kits are always the worst. Easier with etched kits.

 

Wheelset width over tyres:

 

EM with EMGS/Gibson wheels = 21.2mm

EM with Romford/Markits wheels = 21.5mm

EM with 00 RTR wheels = 22.0mm

 

P4 loco wheels = 21.75mm

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Martin,

 

Very timely and useful information as I convert the old 4MT..!  Thank you.

 

Patrick

[NFWEM57]

15 hours ago, KeithHC said:

In this day and age maybe Wayne and Patrick could combine and produce a YouTube video. Also no doubt it will be high lighted in the instructions. Maybe a reference to rmweb as well. Wayne you are doing a cracking job I think you should treat this thread as the devil’s advocate I am sure all on here are willing you and these kits to be a great success I am for one.

 

Keith
 

Hi Keith,

 

Video might be a good idea, much like the 2mm Scale Associations 3 videos of how to assemble their 16T mineral wagon tester. http://www.2mm.org.uk/articles/wagonvideo/  Useful tips in there for any scale.  Bit late now but maybe I'll make one when I get a production turnout...

 

Patrick

[KeithHC]

1 hour ago, NFWEM57 said:

Hi Keith,

 

Video might be a good idea, much like the 2mm Scale Associations 3 videos of how to assemble their 16T mineral wagon tester. http://www.2mm.org.uk/articles/wagonvideo/  Useful tips in there for any scale.  Bit late now but maybe I'll make one when I get a production turnout...

 

Patrick

Thanks Patrick,

also any of us as soon as we get hold of these could produce a suitable video. Maybe I will have to start the Ham fisted modeller channel. I am still thinking about EM as I only have a few items of stock to deal with.......

 

Keith