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Helston Revisited


Andy Keane
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2 hours ago, Mulgabill said:

 

Looking good Andy.

 

I think the key things are that the FY is as flexible as possible, in use. And that it allows you

to run the trains you want, in the way you want. However it can be easy to attempt to be

too clever in what you can do in the FY, then find your options are limited in what you can

on the layout.

 

That was why I raised the query, because it's always better to have gone back and looked

again, before being committed.

 

Good to note that you have caught Paul's attention. Very useful.

 

TONY

Really helpful having Paul's input. I will continue to tidy up the signalling plan as per 1958 but it has started me worrying about what it would have been in 1933!

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Regarding your fiddle yard....

 

If you intend to use a completely hands-off approach to the FY, then the run-round loops make sense, although you then can't use all 6 lines for trains. Also, your loco storage is not easily accessed from the outer longer lines.

If you will be hand-uncoupling the locos from the trains, then there is the option to hand-carry them to the station end, but this is not really advisable.
Tony earlier suggested a loco traverser, presumably with a simple fan of sidings, but a simpler solution would be a Peco Loco Lift (or several), which can be placed at the end of each siding instead of the points.  If you also added a short spur point facing the FY, you could add the loco back to the front of any train (or any loco from the stock to vary things).

 

HTH

 

Stu

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Also does anyone have views on how to set up sprung points with DCC? Does one detect a movement that would spring the point and actuate just in time and return afterwards? This would require info about clearing the point of course. 

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2 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Regarding your fiddle yard....

 

If you intend to use a completely hands-off approach to the FY, then the run-round loops make sense, although you then can't use all 6 lines for trains. Also, your loco storage is not easily accessed from the outer longer lines.

If you will be hand-uncoupling the locos from the trains, then there is the option to hand-carry them to the station end, but this is not really advisable.
Tony earlier suggested a loco traverser, presumably with a simple fan of sidings, but a simpler solution would be a Peco Loco Lift (or several), which can be placed at the end of each siding instead of the points.  If you also added a short spur point facing the FY, you could add the loco back to the front of any train (or any loco from the stock to vary things).

 

HTH

 

Stu

Good thoughts. I think I can add a facing loco spur if I swap the curved point for a double slip, but it would need Marcway to build a curved double slip. Probably worth it though.

I am not keen on lifts - they seem too artificial for my taste.

Also the plan is for four stock lines and two run around lines (the top and middle).

Andy 

Edited by Andy Keane
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3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

The top two are the station elevations,  the rest are platform outbuildings I think. I have full CAD of some of these if needed, based on Pat English's drawings 

Silhouette cutting drawing for a branch station, took from plans in the book.

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1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

The reason I had a gap if two and then a gap of one was a photo of the frame that seems to show that. And I cannot quite make out in the photo the block diagram shown above the levers. Do you have access to the signalling diagram?

 

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

See rosewarnejunction.me.uk/helston-signal-box

http://www.rosewarnejunction.me.uk/helston-signal-box/

I can see how you reached that conclusion from the photo.

The lever that you can see reversed is no.3 - one of the FPLs.  The ‘gap of one’ is actually lever 14, the other FPL also reversed but not visible in the photo.

It was very common to find a signalbox with all levers normal except some of the FPLs (the benefit of a career in signalling!).

it also helps to have the signalling records society CDs - I have had a lot of enjoyment looking through them to answer questions such as yours.
Paul.

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1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

 

I can see how you reached that conclusion from the photo.

The lever that you can see reversed is no.3 - one of the FPLs.  The ‘gap of one’ is actually lever 14, the other FPL also reversed but not visible in the photo.

It was very common to find a signalbox with all levers normal except some of the FPLs (the benefit of a career in signalling!).

it also helps to have the signalling records society CDs - I have had a lot of enjoyment looking through them to answer questions such as yours.
Paul.

Ah! The help is much appreciated. I saw the CDs were available but thought they would be beyond me. Also am I correct in thinking there was some form of colour coding on the levers? I am planning a set of the tiny DCC lookalike levers by DCC Concepts but also thought it would be nice to match the colours. I would of course have to be able to control the sprung points but given the spaces that should be possible. I guess what I am really saying is how would the 20 levers be used if all points were controlled from the box rather than some being sprung - would the levers be reordered?

All thoughts welcome

Andy

Edited by Andy Keane
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8 hours ago, MJI said:

Are there any good maps or aerial photos of this line, particularly post war?

 

Thanks

 

Martin

I have not focussed post war but I have the large 1904 map and the aerial photo from 1942. The map is very clear, the photo not so much. Have you seen the little book on the line. It has all the early maps in it. You can always get the more recent maps from the ordnance survey but they do charge. Are you thinking of a model?

regards

Andy

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14 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I have not focussed post war but I have the large 1904 map and the aerial photo from 1942. The map is very clear, the photo not so much. Have you seen the little book on the line. It has all the early maps in it. You can always get the more recent maps from the ordnance survey but they do charge. Are you thinking of a model?

regards

Andy

Ps there is now a Helston railway preservation group who have a web site: www.helstonrailway.co.uk

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I am considering Nancegollen due to sidings and everyone else does Helston.

 

my kkekeykeybkeybokeybokeyboard  ffafafaifailfailefailed

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Trying again

 

I have 2 locos, 5 carriages and a number of wagons suitable.

 

Also is a change from BR blue.

 

My dad is from Lizard

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16 minutes ago, MJI said:

Trying again

 

I have 2 locos, 5 carriages and a number of wagons suitable.

 

Also is a change from BR blue.

 

My dad is from Lizard

I like Nancegollan but it is a much wider space and I wanted to have a full true scale layout.  But you do have through trains and more sidings etc. Better still is Gwinear Road so you get branch and mainline but it would be huge. Better as a club layout. 

17 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Regarding your fiddle yard....

 

If you intend to use a completely hands-off approach to the FY, then the run-round loops make sense, although you then can't use all 6 lines for trains. Also, your loco storage is not easily accessed from the outer longer lines.

If you will be hand-uncoupling the locos from the trains, then there is the option to hand-carry them to the station end, but this is not really advisable.
Tony earlier suggested a loco traverser, presumably with a simple fan of sidings, but a simpler solution would be a Peco Loco Lift (or several), which can be placed at the end of each siding instead of the points.  If you also added a short spur point facing the FY, you could add the loco back to the front of any train (or any loco from the stock to vary things).

 

HTH

 

Stu

Good thoughts. I think I can add a facing loco spur if I swap the curved point for a double slip, but it would need Marcway to build a curved double slip. Probably worth it though.

I am not keen on lifts - they seem to artificial for my taste. 

Andy 

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2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I like Nancegollan but it is a much wider space and I wanted to have a full true scale layout.  But you do have through trains and more sidings etc. Better still is Gwinear Road so you get branch and mainline but it would be huge. Better as a club layout. 

Good thoughts. I think I can add a facing loco spur if I swap the curved point for a double slip, but it would need Marcway to build a curved double slip. Probably worth it though.

I am not keen on lifts - they seem to artificial for my taste. 

Andy 

 

 

My big layout is Lickey route and runs Peaks 47s and 50s

 

This will be a small fun one.

 

For Gwinear Road I would need more Westerns and Warships and a D600 or two.

 

With a 45xx Prarie and a NBL Type 2 I have a good base, plus a B set, two BR built GWR thirds and a Sunshine BTK.

 

But tempted to pretend it escaped and run a blue BRCW DMU for fun. But that means no sidings.

 

Also have a pile of Airfix cattle wagons for the brocolli.

 

But really need some ex LMS iron stone hoppers, 4 should do.

 

I am currently building a Swindon Cross Country DMU so tak about varied.

 

And it was this or Falmouth branch where signal box above running line.

Edited by MJI
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6 hours ago, MJI said:

 

 

My big layout is Lickey route and runs Peaks 47s and 50s

 

This will be a small fun one.

 

For Gwinear Road I would need more Westerns and Warships and a D600 or two.

 

With a 45xx Prarie and a NBL Type 2 I have a good base, plus a B set, two BR built GWR thirds and a Sunshine BTK.

 

But tempted to pretend it escaped and run a blue BRCW DMU for fun. But that means no sidings.

 

Also have a pile of Airfix cattle wagons for the brocolli.

 

But really need some ex LMS iron stone hoppers, 4 should do.

 

I am currently building a Swindon Cross Country DMU so tak about varied.

 

And it was this or Falmouth branch where signal box above running line.

I have 10 airfix cattle wagon kits waiting to be built from 50 years ago! 

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12 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

About to order up the baseboards.432340539_Helston_code753way-Sheet1.jpg.226e135fe7296cd314a5316053c0e7a9.jpg

The aim is a four foot storage chest, 30 inches wide, that all the sections can go in. I have not quite worked out how to build spacers into the boards. Cuttings are easy but the embankment boards will need some bolt on spacers or some cunning blocks in the chest. Any ideas on such things most welcome. I need to be able to put it all away when not in use.

Andy

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44 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

The aim is a four foot storage chest, 30 inches wide, that all the sections can go in. I have not quite worked out how to build spacers into the boards. Cuttings are easy but the embankment boards will need some bolt on spacers or some cunning blocks in the chest. Any ideas on such things most welcome. I need to be able to put it all away when not in use.

Bottom photo in this post shows one of my boards that slides in and out of a set of IKEA shelves.  Ply or PSE runners screwed to the sides or uprights of your chest at the right spacing should allow you to slide in and out.  Don’t forget to allow a bit over 4’ so that they don’t get stuck if not pulled exactly square, (but not so much as they can slide clear of one edge . . .).

Paul.

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54 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Bottom photo in this post shows one of my boards that slides in and out of a set of IKEA shelves.  Ply or PSE runners screwed to the sides or uprights of your chest at the right spacing should allow you to slide in and out.  Don’t forget to allow a bit over 4’ so that they don’t get stuck if not pulled exactly square, (but not so much as they can slide clear of one edge . . .).

Paul.

Ah, I had been thinking of stacking them one on top of the next with each board being slightly longer than the one below and a set of staggered corner blocks all in a chest on wheels. But you think slide in would be better. Trouble is my boards have various widths. Decisions, decision.

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I would agree with Paul's idea, I have similar planned for Trelothen.

 

If your boards are different lengths,you can still use slides at one end, where the board ends would all line up, and a bespoke set of steps at the other end to cater for each board in turn. As long as the box is also big enough for the widest board, you should be OK.

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OK, so maybe a trunk with a hinged lid and drop front with slides each end. This does sound like a better plan. Especially if the front could slide away like a modern oven door. Do people find runners help or might simple wooden batterns be less slippery? I don't want it all rattling when the trunk gets wheeled away.

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Hi Andy

 

I am inclined to agree with Stubby.

 

Horizontal storage, intuitively, is better for the scenics, with gravity working

in it's normal plane. Your original idea would have it working at 90 degrees

to the norm, and add to that vibration when it's moved. Not good.

 

As ever there is a question prompted by either method.

                            What do you envisage the over size of the trunk/chest to be?

 

With Helstonish I have 3 basic boards 1m x 500mm, which, in order to transport

it to SWAG Taunton, Were stacked using a modified pair of legs. This, for once

worked as envisaged, even though there was a discrepancy in board lengths.

(That doesn't happen very often). However, (to get to the point), the 3 boards

used the full height (app 900mm ) available. So does your plan allow sufficient

headroom for safe clearance of all your scenics? Alternatively you may end up

with a "wardrobe", full of layout.

 

Of course, you could maybe, look out for a genuine, ex GW,container.

 

TONY

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9 hours ago, Mulgabill said:

Hi Andy

 

I am inclined to agree with Stubby.

 

Horizontal storage, intuitively, is better for the scenics, with gravity working

in it's normal plane. Your original idea would have it working at 90 degrees

to the norm, and add to that vibration when it's moved. Not good.

 

As ever there is a question prompted by either method.

                            What do you envisage the over size of the trunk/chest to be?

 

With Helstonish I have 3 basic boards 1m x 500mm, which, in order to transport

it to SWAG Taunton, Were stacked using a modified pair of legs. This, for once

worked as envisaged, even though there was a discrepancy in board lengths.

(That doesn't happen very often). However, (to get to the point), the 3 boards

used the full height (app 900mm ) available. So does your plan allow sufficient

headroom for safe clearance of all your scenics? Alternatively you may end up

with a "wardrobe", full of layout.

 

Of course, you could maybe, look out for a genuine, ex GW,container.

 

TONY

The plan is for the boards to be one above the next, all horizontal in the chest which would be four foot long and 30 inches wide. The issue is how to insert them. Originally I had though to lower them in one after the other but now I think I like the idea of sliding them in like trays in an oven. I am trying to imagine the spacing I would need. I guess the board with carriage shed on the embankment will be tallest: maybe 10 inches from base of board to top of shed? But I also need to allow for the signal in the cutting and the road bridge.

Andy

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On 01/07/2021 at 18:23, Andy Keane said:

The plan is for the boards to be one above the next, all horizontal in the chest which would be four foot long and 30 inches wide. The issue is how to insert them. Originally I had though to lower them in one after the other but now I think I like the idea of sliding them in like trays in an oven. I am trying to imagine the spacing I would need. I guess the board with carriage shed on the embankment will be tallest: maybe 10 inches from base of board to top of shed? But I also need to allow for the signal in the cutting and the road bridge.

Andy

Does anyone have views on the pins or dowels used to align boards? Are hardwood dowels into plywood holes enough or do people use metal pins and brass plates to match etc? Since I am going to have to put this in the chest a fair bit I want a system that will not get loose and give me rail alignment problems after being reassembled a good few times.

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1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Does anyone have views on the pins or dowels used to align boards?

45 years ago I used a wooden alignment system - it was fine for accuracy but I could see it wearing a bit. It was alignment posts not dowels so a greater wear area, but also in pine not hardwood.  My worry with hardwood dowels would be wear over time and possibly vulnerability to snapping.
I’m a great fan of DCC Concepts alignment dowels because they are accurate and also easy to fit.  My old boards got separated quite a bit and didn’t show any signs of wear. (I haven’t, and probably wouldn’t use their power connector dowels.).

Paul.

 

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