Seeing Red - The Vexed Question of GWR Wagon Livery

[Edwardian]

So, there is genuine uncertainty as to the date when GWR wagon livery went from red to grey.  The current preference seems to be that the red carried on until the adoption of the 25" G W in 1904.  I believe that there is no definitive answer; earliest probable date for going to grey seems to be 1896 and the latest 1904. 

 

But what about the details of the red livery? Specicially, how much of it was red?

 

There seem to be two schools of thought:

 

(1) Red solebar and body, but black below the solebar (including the brake lever).  This would be to ape the way wagons with wooden u/fs were commonly painted; headstocks and solebars in body color, ironwork beneath in black.

 

Here one of Mikkel's beautiful models:

 

 

Does this logically make sense for the GW wagon of the 1880s onward, built with bulb section or steel channel u/fs?

 

By which I mean, there is no longer a change in material south of the solebar. Less reason to treat them differently when painting. Thus, the other possibility ....

 

(2) Red is applied to all the ironwork; solebar, headstock and below. Exactly as the GW painted wagons when then changed to dark grey.

 

Below, some excellent examples of the alternative approach by drduncan of this parish:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Edwardian
A question of attribution

[tomparryharry]

They are very nice models. My only 'observation'  (by no means factual ) would be Morton brake, and buffers.   Grease boxes? Dumb buffing on one end?

 

Nice.

[Guy Rixon]

IIRC, the GWR didn't use the Morton clutches for two-sided brakes until after grouping. They had single-sided brakes with one conventional lever (ad in the first photo), then the Thomas brake for either-side application (as in the third photo, which I think is another of Mikkel's models, one of my favourites), then the Dean/Churchward systems.

 

The logic of all-red wagons on steel underframes is compelling, but I think they look better when off-black below the solebar. Black solebars under a red body look naff, I've tried it. Also: dirty black below solebar, or painted dark grey, foreshadowing the later, all-over colour?

[Edwardian]

48 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

IIRC, the GWR didn't use the Morton clutches for two-sided brakes until after grouping. They had single-sided brakes with one conventional lever (ad in the first photo), then the Thomas brake for either-side application (as in the third photo, which I think is another of Mikkel's models, one of my favourites), then the Dean/Churchward systems.

 

Quite right.

 

Brakes would typically be double brakes one side, with a conventional lever, on the braked side only, for wagons built in this period. Just as you say

 

The Thomas brake, seen in one of the pictures, was patented in 1897.

 

This did not last long because the new Dean-Churchward brake took over, fitted to some 4-planks in 1901 (these became diagram O5, whilst the conventionally braked 4-planks remained undiagramed) and patented in 1902.

 

I would expect oils axleboxes to be common on new-builds only from the second half of the 1890s and no retro-fitting until the 1900s.

 

48 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

The logic of all-red wagons on steel underframes is compelling,

 

 

That was rather my thought

 

As Atkins et al has it, there were few wagons built after 1885 that did not have iron (or, after 1895) steel underframes.  Before that there were flitched frames, iron solebar plates on wooden frames.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

but I think they look better when off-black below the solebar. Black solebars under a red body look naff, I've tried it. Also: dirty black below solebar, or painted dark grey, foreshadowing the later, all-over colour?

 

Not that I'd necessarily put prototype logic before aesthetics every time, but I suspect the fact that all red ironwork below the solebar disconcerts us might not be the best reason for rejecting it; I think once the heavier weathering of the lower portions is undertaken, it won't be quite so jarring to the senses. 

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

There are now two threads on this topic, here and in the GWR thread. I appreciate the reason at the start of the enquiry. Would it be best to concentrate discussion on one thread?

I don't think the GWR itself ever had wagons with dumb buffers one end (that seems to have been a south Wales speciality) and any dumb buffered wagons would surely have gone by this period. Even in the 1870s Saltney was building wagons with spring buffers. Incidentally, I recently discovered an interesting book: "Saltney Carriage and Wagon Works" by Tony Wood, published for the Great Western Study Group by Wider View.

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

10 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

There are now two threads on this topic, here and in the GWR thread. I appreciate the reason at the start of the enquiry. Would it be best to concentrate discussion on one thread?

I don't think the GWR itself ever had wagons with dumb buffers one end (that seems to have been a south Wales speciality) and any dumb buffered wagons would surely have gone by this period. Even in the 1870s Saltney was building wagons with spring buffers. Incidentally, I recently discovered an interesting book: "Saltney Carriage and Wagon Works" by Tony Wood, published for the Great Western Study Group by Wider View.

Jonathan

 

Fair enough, but the different sections of the forum have different, if overlapping, constituencies and I wanted it to come to the attention of everyone who might be able to offer information or insight. 

[corneliuslundie]

I agree with that approach. But I am sure you don't want the same discussions happening twice with different conclusions reached!.

Fortunately by my date (1912) that was all sorted out for both the GWR and the Rhymney, which followed the GWR in a switch from red to grey. That said, I do have a few RR wagons in red.

Jonathan