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So, there is genuine uncertainty as to the date when GWR wagon livery went from red to grey.  The current preference seems to be that the red carried on until the adoption of the 25" G W in 1904.  I believe that there is no definitive answer; earliest probable date for going to grey seems to be 1896 and the latest 1904. 

 

But what about the details of the red livery? Specicially, how much of it was red?

 

There seem to be two schools of thought:

 

(1) Red solebar and body, but black below the solebar (including the brake lever).  This would be to ape the way wagons with wooden u/fs were commonly painted; headstocks and solebars in body color, ironwork beneath in black.

 

Here one of Mikkel's beautiful models:

 

IMG_0717ok.jpg.95098d16e502134a5cb84e4ab01de9c0.jpg

 

Does this logically make sense for the GW wagon of the 1880s onward, built with bulb section or steel channel u/fs?

 

By which I mean, there is no longer a change in material south of the solebar. Less reason to treat them differently when painting. Thus, the other possibility ....

 

(2) Red is applied to all the ironwork; solebar, headstock and below. Exactly as the GW painted wagons when then changed to dark grey.

 

Below, some excellent examples of the alternative approach by drduncan of this parish:

 

blogentry-21453-0-79188700-1473258839.jpg.4656b5af2308b22692b778c6fa64fe9c.jpg

 

blogentry-21453-0-61034900-1440428170.jpg.f422b9df684688a58667afcbf901b264.jpg

 

Edited by Edwardian
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Aah the lid on the old can of worms is being prised off again :D

 

Personally, I have adopted a grey date somewhat before 1904, in that the wagons I’ve applied cast plates to are in grey livery. I’ve also gone with an all over red livery, ie everything below the solebar is also red.

 

 I have no evidence for any of the decisions I’ve taken though! The first open wagon I fitted the plates to was red but I felt it didn’t look right so repainted it grey (I have gone with white lettering on a grey background for my plates), and I adopted the all over red simply because the later livery was an all over grey.

 

Ian

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9 hours ago, Ian Smith said:

Aah the lid on the old can of worms is being prised off again :D

 

Personally, I have adopted a grey date somewhat before 1904, in that the wagons I’ve applied cast plates to are in grey livery. I’ve also gone with an all over red livery, ie everything below the solebar is also red.

 

 I have no evidence for any of the decisions I’ve taken though! The first open wagon I fitted the plates to was red but I felt it didn’t look right so repainted it grey (I have gone with white lettering on a grey background for my plates), and I adopted the all over red simply because the later livery was an all over grey.

 

Ian

 

Yes, the 'cast plate' phase is the real area of difficulty; outshopped in red or grey? Impossible to know which for sure.

 

I, too, feel more comfortable with cast plate wagons in grey.  They look more right, but, of course, that could be based on expectations that they were grey, influenced by older scholarship (but just as likely to be right, IMHO) that the change of livery was c.1898.

 

The excellent summary at gwr.org serves to demonstrate the uncertainty.

 

I do not expect to gain a definitive answer to the question of whether the red was carried on below the solebar or not.  You could read the text in Atkins et al as implying the all-over colour started with the dark grey - ''Unlike many other companies' stock, the grey body colour was also used for the underframe'' - but equally that might represent a continuation of the practice adopted with the red livery, but that the prior practice was unrecorded.

 

This given that, in general, wagons built after 1885 had iron (or, after 1895) steel underframes, and before that there were flitched frames, iron solebar plates on wooden frames.  There seems no logical reason or need to separate into different colours at the base of the solebar.

 

What I'm looking for is any indication that one treatment is more likely than the other (there may not be one). As I say, logic seems to be pushing me to all-over red.

 

However, I note the following comment on gwr.org following the discussion of the date red gave way to grey:

 

Webmaster's note: The above illustrations show red applied to metal solebars. It is known that the GWR did start painting metal solebars on some wagons in black after 1888, to match the black of the running gear, but it is not known whether or when the black became generally applicable to metal solebars. In any event, 'all-over grey' was subsequently adopted soon thereafter.

 

''It is known ....''

 

Calling Miss Prism!

 

 

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My rationale for all red (notwithstanding the GWR.org quote which I hadn’t come across somehow) was that the grey was a continuation of previous practice coupled with human nature ie if you tell a painter to use grey not red they will paint all the bits that had been red grey.  So no black on grey meant no black in red either. So while mikkel’s wagon is a better model than mine I think mine look more plausible!!!! (and this is likely to be the only time I can say that about Mikkel’s exemplary work!)

 

Duncan

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One comment that I would add, given that there are various references to both light and dark red, is that the red paint would have contained a significant lead-based compound content and thus would have been susceptible to the lead sulphide blackening (actually dark graying) syndrome (well known from its similar effect on white roofs).

 

It seems to me unlikely that goods wagons were given a general repaint frequently, probably less than once a decade, and that probably also accounts for the reports that wagons with cast numberplates never became anything like universal, even though wagons must sometimes have needed to have their numbers repainted (to keep them legible) without receiving a more general repaint.

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Indeed.

 

The best support, I think, for assuming that red remained current until 1904  is this (here quoting John Lewis as reproduce on the gwr.org page:

 

There was an article in the October 1904 issue of Railway Magazine entitled "The Colour Schemes of our Railways" by one J.B. Baron Collins, MA. This includes a diagram which gives the colour of wagons as "dark red, also grey". The red colour is described thus:

 

"... even its trucks are cheerfully coloured a warm red, probably the only decided red trucks going."

 

Now, without that diagram, there is no way of telling whether the extent of the red livery (i.e. whether it reached beneath the solebar) is dealt with in the article.

 

However, assuming wagon repaints could take up to a decade, in 1904 there would be many red wagons around, even assuming a change to grey in the 1890s.  Now Mr Collins might be referring to brake vans and newly shopped 1904 25'' lettered wagons as his grey examples. As a general description, however, it suggests to me that both grey and red wagons were seen as common. For that to be the case in 1904, the livery change would need to be earlier.

 

The last known date GWR wagons were reported as outshopped in red is 1892 (the frustratingly imprecise ''a newspaper report saying that the GWR were newly painting wagons "bright red" in May 1892''). The Locomotive Volume 1, No. 3, March 1896 states: "A light red colour is adopted for the wagon stock with white lettering but the goods brakes are a dark grey."

 

The last reference to red wagons - by a contemporary commentator - is given by Lewis as Hamilton Ellis in W J Gordon's Our Home Railways.  Lewis says that HE was talking about GW goods stock being red in 1914. Does Lewis means that (a) HE was talking in 1914 about GW wagons being red, or, (b) he is talking about GW wagons being red in 1914?  The former admits of the possibility that HE is looking back from 1914.  This work was several volumes long, in bound form, however, it was originally issued in 12 paperback volumes and research suggests a publication date of 1910. Does that apply to all volumes, I wonder?

 

This seems important because.  if HE is describing the position at the time of writing and the time of writing is 1914, we are slightly pushing probability that red is common if the livery changed, say, around the turn of the century, though it would be more probable if the red livery was applied up to 1904.

 

If, however, HE is describing the position at the time of writing and the time of writing is 1910, we are more likely to see red wagons, even if the change of livery was c.1898-1900.

 

However, if HE is looking backwards in time, from either 1910 or 1914, the position is rather different. Why might I assume that? Well, Lewis has HE writing in 1914 and mentioning GW wagons as red, with no apparent mention of grey wagons.  Given that, on Lewis's account of HE's description, there have been 10 years since 1904, the last year the change to grey could have taken place, I would have assumed outshopped and re-painted wagons in grey would have been common by 1914.

 

Even assuming a slower rate of construction in the 1900s and 1910s, assuming the majority of repaints within a 10-year period, considering withdrawals of red wagons and new builds, would we not expect grey wagons to be common, or perhaps to predominate, by 1914 even if no grey was used until 1904?  A whole generation of 16' opens were built between 1904 and 1914, plus the wooden minks that succeeded the iron minks.  All grey.  Can HE have been describing the 1914, or even the 1910, scene when he referred to GW wagons as red?

 

it is certainly all most curious.

 

None of this helps with the question of whether red was applied beneath the solebar, however.

 

If there is a contemporary reference to running gear painted black, I'd like to see that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

If there is a contemporary reference to running gear painted black, I'd like to see that. 

 

Plate 423 of the bible (a newly outshopped P5 of 1888) shows its underframe is a very dark colour compared to the lighter body colour.

 

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19 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

There was an article in the October 1904 issue of Railway Magazine entitled "The Colour Schemes of our Railways" by one J.B. Baron Collins, MA. This includes a diagram which gives the colour of wagons as "dark red, also grey". The red colour is described thus:

 

"... even its trucks are cheerfully coloured a warm red, probably the only decided red trucks going."

 

Now, without that diagram, there is no way of telling whether the extent of the red livery (i.e. whether it reached beneath the solebar) is dealt with in the article.

 

James, the article - and various other livery clippings - can be found in PDF files here:

 

 

 

On the issue of running gear, one argument for all over red seems to be that it would be simpler and cost effective.

There I think it’s useful to consider what other companies with red wagons did. I.e. the Barry, Caledonian, Highland and NSR. Modellers of those companies seem to go for black running gear, but it would be nice to hear the finer details from experts on those companies.

 

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3 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Plate 423 of the bible (a newly outshopped P5 of 1888) shows its underframe is a very dark colour compared to the lighter body colour.

 

 

Thanks, Russ.  I agree that the picture clearly shows that.

 

The scheme shown may or may not be common or universal and a departmental wagon might have been treated differently.  That same bible, Atkins et al says of the red wagon period that some wagons, perhaps service wagons, were black!

 

I agree, though, that the solebar and running gear appear darker, but could you necessarily say the same about, say, plates 309, 349 or 351? 1888 and 1890s.

 

Plate 341 seems to support what you say. Dated 1888, on the 4-plank the solebar and running gear seems darker than the body, but, then, the opposite seems true of the dumb buffer wagon beside it.

 

The only reliable contrast seems to be your plate 423. 

 

However, are we necessarily seeing a red body with the black u/f?

 

The way red shows up on early film seems to make distinguishing between red and black difficult.  It also makes me wonder whether the body in plate 423 can be red?  Might it not be grey, with black solebar and running gear?    

 

 

4 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

James, the article - and various other livery clippings - can be found in PDF files here:

 

 

 

On the issue of running gear, one argument for all over red seems to be that it would be simpler and cost effective.

There I think it’s useful to consider what other companies with red wagons did. I.e. the Barry, Caledonian, Highland and NSR. Modellers of those companies seem to go for black running gear, but it would be nice to hear the finer details from experts on those companies.

 

 

Brilliant, I'll have a look, thanks.

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Hmm, I confess that I am swayed by the views of respected parishioners, Mikkel and Miss P.

 

From a position in which I was favouring red all-over, I now find myself pulled the other way. The comment that other railways with red wagons didn't paint it on the running gear is well-worth consideration.  However, I do think we should distinguish between wooden u/f wagons and metal. There is a natural difference in treatment of the area below the solebar in the former case. The Caledonian had steel u/f wagons. It seems to have painted the solebars, headstocks and buffer guides of these body red, but it seems likely that the running gear was black,  Only all metal wagons, such as trollies, well-wagons and hoppers seem to have been all-over red. 

 

It is good to read the clippings in full, for which many thanks to Mikkel, and to have a record of them, but ultimately seeing them in full does not add to the citations on gwr.org in terms of the points in issue.  There is, it seems, not any more to discover, as we must expect would be the case. 

 

Miss P puts forward some good evidence.  I am not sure what to make of the ballast wagon example. Yes, the solebar and running gear are darker and presumably black, but, given the way red comes out in contemporary photographs (very dark), it is hard to rely on the light coloured body as evidence of a red wagon with a black u/f, not that I have seen any evidence of another colour (other than the black suggested by Atkins et al) for a departmental vehicle.  Just on photographic appearance, I'd say I was looking at a light-mid grey body on a black u/f. I'd expect a red body to appear darker on a period photograph (1888). What exactly, then, is the ballast wagon evidence of?

 

One thing that still nags is this; given that all over dark grey does not necessarily or even logically suggest all over red before it, the GWR, when faced with metal u/f wagons, chose to break the mould by applying grey, rather than black, to the running gear. That engages Mikkel's point; regardless of body colour, other companies invariably painted everything under the solebar black, even where the u/f was metal.  The GW didn't. It decided to paint everything one colour. Might the GW just have easily have made that decision in the 1880s, when metal u/f had become the norm, rather than on the introduction of the grey livery?

 

I still cannot make a determination one way or the other.  I suspect that it will have to remain a matter of preference and subjective interpretation.

 

1412374172_download(2).jpg.02dbe43ae0a30c028038914317597b34.jpg

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Musings, no evidence, just thoughts.

 

If I’ve got iron bits on my wagon, I presumably don’t want them to rust, and I don’t want rust stains on the wooden bits either, because it’s just not British, and might put off paying customers, if the wagons in which their merchandise was to be carried on these new-fangled railways were to be shabby.  Well! really!  It just wouldn’t do.

 

so what did they have, in those days, that would stop the iron & steel rusting?  Tar based paints?  Lead based paints? 
and similarly stop the wood rotting?  Lead based paints?  Wouldn’t use tar because that would dirty the merchandise.

 

red lead for wood, tar based for iron?

 

atb

Simon

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Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis was born in 1909. Even if he had observed some GWR red wagons in 1914, at the tender age of five it is unlikely that he was capable of reliably estimating their extent within the fleet. It is quite likely that some would have still been red even if the change of livery had predated the start of the 20th century, and they may well have impressed themselves more on the mind of a five-year-old than the (probably more common) boring grey ones.

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Not sure if this is the right thread to answer, and I have no idea about the validity of the following comments, but in a fascinating slim volume called "Our Railway History" written by Rixon Bucknall, published in 1944, there is a listing of liveries for most of the main pre-grouping railway companies and some smaller ones. It doesn't claim to be comprehensive, but it does note most of the major changes to loco and coach liveries, even covering steamer funnels, when appropriate. For the Great Western it says;

Coaches - Brown, with cream upper panels.  In 1909, brown all over: in 1912, Crimson Lake: in 1922 a reversion to brown with cream upper panels.

Wagons - Dark red; and also grey.

No sources given, but quite interesting nonetheless.

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The conclusion that I've come to is that the best course of action is to try to be consistent within one's own modelling. I have to confess that although I've chosen to assume that grey came in with the 25" G W lettering, I'm still dithering over black or red below solebar level. 

 

In the absence of clear evidence, my choice is driven by theory and preference. Theory, in that a change of colour seems most likely with a significant change in lettering style*; I dismiss a change with the introduction of cast plates because the plates were used concurrently with the small lettering and, as far as I can see, the plates were only applied to newly-built wagons, not to repainted old wagons. Preference: I like my red lead wagons, which provide a striking contrast to the light lead grey of my Midland wagons and mid lead grey of my LNWR wagons.

 

But I still find this challenges my preconceptions:

 

402123189_GWV5No.69984Foxtransfers.JPG.d77885642fafac5ea4e9d59d268be870.JPG

 

*vide the L&Y's c. 1903 change from bare wood with black ironwork, with only the triangle-in-circle logo, to overall grey with large L Y lettering.

 

 

Edited by Compound2632
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5 hours ago, Simond said:

Musings, no evidence, just thoughts.

 

If I’ve got iron bits on my wagon, I presumably don’t want them to rust, and I don’t want rust stains on the wooden bits either, because it’s just not British, and might put off paying customers, if the wagons in which their merchandise was to be carried on these new-fangled railways were to be shabby.  Well! really!  It just wouldn’t do.

 

so what did they have, in those days, that would stop the iron & steel rusting?  Tar based paints?  Lead based paints? 
and similarly stop the wood rotting?  Lead based paints?  Wouldn’t use tar because that would dirty the merchandise.

 

red lead for wood, tar based for iron?

 

My understanding is that white lead is the better choice for woodwork and red lead for iron/steel (it's the colour of the Forth Bridge). Both provide a waterproof barrier, preventing rotting / rusting (as applicable). This has to do with the chemistry of how it binds to the surface, I believe. It's a while since I read up on the subject.

 

I have wondered if the GW's choice of red lead goes back to its early preference for iron wagons but that doesn't explain why it was also used by the Caledonian, Great Northern, and South Eastern (to mention just the first three that spring to mind).

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20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The conclusion that I've come to is that the best course of action is to try to be consistent within one's own modelling. I have to confess that although I've chosen to assume that grey came in with the 25" G W lettering, I'm still dithering over black or red below solebar level. 

 

In the absence of clear evidence, my choice is driven by theory and preference. Theory, in that a change of colour seems most likely with a significant change in lettering style*; I dismiss a change with the introduction of cast plates because the plates were used concurrently with the small lettering and, as far as I can see, the plates were only applied to newly-built wagons, not to repainted old wagons. Preference: I like my red lead wagons, which provide a striking contrast to the light lead grey of my Midland wagons and mid lead grey of my LNWR wagons.

 

But I still find this challenges my preconceptions:

 

402123189_GWV5No.69984Foxtransfers.JPG.d77885642fafac5ea4e9d59d268be870.JPG

 

*vide the L&Y's c. 1903 change from bare wood with black ironwork, with only the triangle-in-circle logo, to overall grey with large L Y lettering.

 

 

 

Yes, a V4 in red freaks me out.  It doesn't help that I haven't seen a picture of a V4 in the small lettering, but they must have been outshopped in small lettering for two years, whatever colour they were in.  Of course, it is perfectly proper in red (IIRC they were built from 1902, iron mink production having ceased in 1901) if you accept 1904 as the change to grey. 

 

I'm not sure that I do!  Rather, like the issue of black v. red running gear/solebar, I do not have a definite view of what is right, because I have not seen evidence that tips the balance one way or t'other.

 

Wagons with cast plates, for the main era of this, look better, to me, in grey, but, rather like me reaction to a red V4, it's based on a pre-conception. I should resist this!

 

'Problem' wagons for me are the long bonnet iron minks, built from 1899, the undiagramed and O5 4-plank opens built c.1899-1902, the O4 5-planks, potentially built as early as 1902-4, and the first of the new wooden minks, the V4, that were built 1902-4.

 

What I will say, however, is that your V4 is a very nice model, quite correct for 1902 on one of two legitimate views on GW livery history and, furthermore, looks absolutely right to me 

for having red solebar and running gear. 

 

On livery date, you mention that you do not think that the introduction of cast plates (the main phase from late 1890s), which was not universally applied, is enough of a change to warrant a re-think of the colour. While it doesn't preclude a change in colour, I tend to agree.  It may, however, be that others have assumed a connection; 'around 1898' is cited by some as the date of the colour change, but I have not seen a contemporary reference to wagon colour that ties anything to 1898.

 

What might prompt such a change is a break in wagon-building practice, the move to 5 planks and wooden minks from c.1902.  That doesn't seem hugely persuasive either. DCI  brakes would have been new, but OK oil boxes seem to have come in by 1897 and, otherwise, we are talking about essentially the same underframes as the iron minks and opens built in the previous decade. Is adding a plank or building wooden van bodies enough of a change to prompt another change?

 

There does not necessarily have to be a fundamental change in another area to coincide with a change in colour, of course, but I see the logic of 1904's 25'' letters as a catalyst.

 

My own point of compromise might be to keep everything in red before the DCI braked O5s and the V4s, effectively treating c.1902 as the date (perhaps just ignoring wagons actually built in this period and having models just of red wagons built up to 1901 and grey ones built from 1904. It's a fudge, but any solution would be.

 

On the application of the red livery, as the only evidence that tends to support the view that running gear was black is a picture of a PW wagon that also has a black solebar and may, thus, be evidence that solebars on red wagons were painted black, the situation in summary appears to be:

 

- Red body and black solebar and running gear: Sole evidence a photograph of 1888 of a departmental wagon, which may or may not represent the appearance of revenue earning stock and which may or may not have a red body.

 

- Red body and solebar with black running gear: No evidence, but a reasoned and reasonable conclusion.

 

- Red body, solebar and running gear: No evidence, but a reasoned and reasonable conclusion.

 

Where does that leave us?

 

Well, logically it seems to me that our choice is this, either:

 

(a) Accept the PW wagon as a evidence of livery of red wagons generally in the revenue earning fleet; or, if you are not persuaded by this,

 

(b) Adopt whichever of the remaining two options seems the most likely and/or appealing to you. 

 

Like you, with two competing possibilities for (a) the date of the change to grey and (b) the painting of solebars and running gear, I am increasingly minded to go with personal preference.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I am increasingly minded to go with personal preference.


plausible personal preference.

 

hopefully that will prevent anyone thinking that lilac underframe & ironwork with turquoise woodwork meets any kind of constraint on the matter.

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So are the 20+ N4 20 ton loco coal wagons photographed in 1902 during vacuum brake trials in red, grey or black livery?  I thought I’d just drop that musing in.

 

Maybe I should take my gems are visit a stone circle?

Edited by Penrhos1920
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1 hour ago, Simond said:


plausible personal preference.

 

hopefully that will prevent anyone thinking that lilac underframe & ironwork with turquoise woodwork meets any kind of constraint on the matter.

 

I think you might have taken that as implied1

 

Anyhow, the preference was clearly between the two plausible options I had outlined immediately above. Some may find one of the options implausible, of course, but I think any judgment here is ultimately subjective, based on what an individual's knowledge of the prototype suggests as the most likely option.

 

So, for instance, those who favour red solebars and black running gear may well be correct.  I do not think we can say they are wrong. Nor, however, do I feel there is enough evidence to justify being emphatic that that is the correct option and pronouncing against the alternatives outlined. 

 

32 minutes ago, Penrhos1920 said:

So are the 20+ N4 20 ton loco coal wagons photographed in 1902 during vacuum brake trials in red, grey or black livery?  I thought I’d just drop that musing in.

 

Maybe I should take my gems are visit a stone circle?

 

Indeed. If they are grey or red, is the running gear and/or the solebar black?

 

I have been considering the grey goods vehicle that did obtain at the same time as red wagons; goods brake vans.

 

Were they grey bodied but with black running gear and/or solebar? Or, did they anticipate the all-over grey livery by being all-over grey?  If the latter, why wouldn't red wagons be all over red?

 

I don't have an answer, so, again, just dropping a musing in.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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