Mystery Coach

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Ooh, just spotted something else; plate 1.86 on page 57. Look at the ''Darlington'' coach obscured by the station roof column.  I believe we may have a match! In style; a First, I would guess, of the same style as the Mystery Coach First-Second composite.

 

I concur. The frustrating thing about North Eastern Record Vol. 2 is that it is a style and livery register, not a carriage and wagon illustrated history. I've never come across such a thing - maybe the information has been published for NERA members? There's evidently a lot of information just out of sight...  John B. Dawson, if he is still with us, seems to be the man who would know.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

For those not in possession of the North Eastern Record Vol. 2, below are the "Darlington coaches" discussed.

 

To echo what Stephen has just said, the caption writer clearly recognises these as Darlington coaches - a conclusion we'd had to work out for ourselves in this topic ! - yet the main text makes no mention of the development of Darlington Committee/Central Division coaches post amalgamation, save in relation to the continued use of S&D's final, teak effect, coach livery.   The picture was published to illustrate the livery, not to chart coach development. As Stephen says, this leaves the reader with the impression of a certain amount of knowledge not shared, and, no, I wouldn't know of any source, published or unpublished, held by the NERA or otherwise, where such knowledge might be found. The Ken Hoole study centre at North Road, a rather restricted resource, IIRC, might be the place to start looking.

 

And, no, that's not my thumb print!

 

 

 

EDIT: A further pleasing confirmatory detail is the rain strips on the round-top coach come down to the edge of the roof either side of the door positions. You can see the same on our Mystery Coach. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

I see the NERA does offer reproductions of various Diagram Books.

[Edwardian]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I see the NERA does offer reproductions of various Diagram Books.

 

Yes, I have all these.  You will look in vain for anything resembling, the Mystery Coach. 

 

Vol. 1 has only one 4-wheel coach, an 1880 invalid saloon, while vol. 2 has an 1876 First, an 1881 Third, and an 1882 Van Third.  All these are recognisably NER in style, according to class.   

[Nick Holliday]

9 hours ago, Edwardian said:

What is interesting about the Mystery Coach (as an assumed First/Second composite, is that the centre blind vertical panel is no wider than the two that sit on the First and Second Class partitions.

 

This suggests to me that we might be looking at equal sized compartments, but, presumably, with First Class more plush (e.g. arm rests for fewer occupants, door vents etc).

 

While I have come across this sort of thing before, the failure to distinguish classes by compartment widths is a matter of practice that is another factor when considering the building company.

 

If you take the original photo and use Gimp to reverse the perspective, I think it becomes clearer that the end compartments are not the same width as those in the middle. 

If we take the compartment dimensions for the two possibly contemporary NER designs, they are 6' 0" for a third class compartment and 6' 9" for a first, and, if we accept that the partitions don't have to be in the middle of the blank panel, the end compartments are in a similar ratio to the centre ones, although I am not saying the carriage is 25' 6" overall. Everything on the two end compartments is reduced in size; window and door width.

So we have a first/third composite, fitting in with earlier comments regarding the different designs adopted for the different classes.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

If you take the original photo and use Gimp to reverse the perspective, I think it becomes clearer that the end compartments are not the same width as those in the middle. 

 

That is very useful.  Bernard, having suggested that the outer compartment quarter lights were narrower, had persuaded me that there were different width.

 

You have shown that the First doors are also wider? I've seen that on the Metropolitan & Carriage Works 1871 composites for the LSWR. That also makes sense to me.

 

 

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

If we take the compartment dimensions for the two possibly contemporary NER designs, they are 6' 0" for a third class compartment and 6' 9" for a first, and,

 

 

I will certainly check what measurements I have. 

 

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

if we accept that the partitions don't have to be in the middle of the blank panel,

 

 

 

No, they don't, and contemporary NE practice shows this by dividing the panel unequally, thus ....

 

 

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

the end compartments are in a similar ratio to the centre ones, although I am not saying the carriage is 25' 6" overall. Everything on the two end compartments is reduced in size; window and door width.

So we have a first/third composite, fitting in with earlier comments regarding the different designs adopted for the different classes.

 

I think it will have been built as a First/Second composite, but, prior to disposal by the NER it will have been modernised to some extent (e.g. gas lights and, presumably, continuous automatic brakes) and it will have received NER lake in place of S&D teak effect, and will have been demoted to an all Third. 

 

In this condition it was disposed of, perhaps directly, to the Yorkshire Wagon Co. which hire-purchase leased it to the Yorkshire Light Railway Syndicate.  

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I think it will have been built as a First/Second composite, but, prior to disposal by the NER it will have been modernised to some extent (e.g. gas lights and, presumably, continuous automatic brakes) and it will have received NER lake in place of S&D teak effect, and will have been demoted to an all Third. 

 

I'm not entirely confident of this but I don't think those are gas lamps. I think they may be oil lamps of a more modern design. Gas lamps almost invariably look like the ones on the restored GCR carriage a photograph of which you posted.