D800's on Mk2 Coaches

[ianwales]

Hi all

 

Did the D800 warships work with the early Mk2 coaching stock, the non ETH types, all the photos I've seen seem to have Mk1's? It’s just I was looking at the Diesel Dawn book on the Swindon warships and towards the end there is a photo with what looks to me like a blue/grey Mk2 immediately behind the loco, ( I don’t have the book with me at the moment to give the loco number)

 

Ian

Edited May 29, 2021 by ianwales
Adding info

[stovepipe]

Well I would never say never, but probably only in pretty unusual circumstances. The earliest Mk2s were FKs, which went to the LMR and SR, some of the latter may have appeared on the Waterloo - Exeter services as single green coaches at some point. The next batch of Mk2s went to the LMR for the WCML electrified services, but by this point Warship visits to Crewe on interregional services had ended. Towards the end of the 60s the CRE was double-headed by Warships, and as a premier service, it may have received some newer stock, but again in single numbers, if at all.

[keefer]

Presumably would have to be the earliest Mk2 stock (Mk2z) as these had vacuum brakes.

From Mk2a onwards, the coaches were air-brake only (except for some which were later converted to vacuum brake for use in Scotland) and so could not work with the Warships.

Lack of space for compressors etc. meant the Warships could not (easily) be fitted with air brakes, unlike the Westerns.

[Halvarras]

3 hours ago, keefer said:

Presumably would have to be the earliest Mk2 stock (Mk2z) as these had vacuum brakes.

From Mk2a onwards, the coaches were air-brake only (except for some which were later converted to vacuum brake for use in Scotland) and so could not work with the Warships.

Lack of space for compressors etc. meant the Warships could not (easily) be fitted with air brakes, unlike the Westerns.

 

Air brakes weren't easily fitted to the Westerns either! Pretty much impossible with the smaller Warships. Even the Brush Type 4s proved a challenge.......

 

The first Peak into Cornwall was D151 on 30/12/69 and it appeared many times on the same down and up workings throughout January 1970 as local crew training got underway. It wasn't long before I went for a short ride behind it from Truro to Redruth and I recall returning to Truro in a Mark 2 SO behind maroon FYE Warship D809 Champion and there were two Mark 2s in the train, W5206 and W5210, so it must have been one of those - this pair were often seen down there at the time. I wasn't particularly interested in coaching stock until July 1968 when chocolate & cream-liveried W34885 turned up, which was hard to miss! I made a note of this in the back of a spotting book and beside it I've written "W5223 Mark 2a coach" (incorrectly as it was a vacuum-braked Mark 2), so I assume this was the first such vehicle I'd seen in the area, apparently as early as 1968.

By pure coincidence just 48 hours ago I was looking through my old books and came across a log I'd made of Mark 2 SOs seen in Cornwall around 1970-71 - W5203/4/6/9/10/11/14/15/20/21/23/24/25/27/28. Warships must have been hauling many of these. The RCTS Coaching Stock book 1976 edition shows that by the end of 1975 these vehicles had all moved to the Eastern Region. I don't remember seeing any Mark 2 FKs behind Warships in Cornwall, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen of course.

[30851]

Think I have found a photo of it happening https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=174601 - 5th coach back looks to be a green MK2 FK with D820. Such occurrences wouldn't happen much longer as the SR converted their FK's to air brakes later in 1967.

 

 

Rob

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by 30851

[30851]

And another one I believe -  https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/2597708810/in/album-72157603648348394/ from Robert Carroll's Flickr site. I assume the MK2 is one of those Neil mentions above.

 

 

 

Rob

[br2975]

806 at Reading April, 1971

.

Photographer unknown.

[Rivercider]

Is this another one from Robert Carroll's Flickr site, at Exeter St Davids behind D827?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4104057422/in/photolist-7fEnhJ-tqyvP6-2hVsnz2/ 

 

cheers

[Halvarras]

59 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Is this another one from Robert Carroll's Flickr site, at Exeter St Davids behind D827?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4104057422/in/photolist-7fEnhJ-tqyvP6-2hVsnz2/ 

 

cheers

 

'Fraid not, that's a Mark 1 BSK (the only green - and maroon for that matter - Mark 2s were FKs), although it has a curious feature - the raised alloy window frames were fitted to later Mark 1 production as a corrosion prevention measure but the nearest smaller window frames on this one appear to have square corners. I don't recall seeing such a thing before. I've quickly scanned the Parkin book, no joy but it lists S34934 - 35023 as new to the SR so it's probably one of these.

Notice too how prominent the roof ribs are - Bachmann's were way too prominent to begin with but removing them completely wasn't really the answer either. Perhaps Tri-ang had it about right....................in the early 1960s!! 

[stovepipe]

Second coach here I think, 1969

 

[Rivercider]

7 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

 

'Fraid not, that's a Mark 1 BSK (the only green - and maroon for that matter - Mark 2s were FKs), although it has a curious feature - the raised alloy window frames were fitted to later Mark 1 production as a corrosion prevention measure but the nearest smaller window frames on this one appear to have square corners. I don't recall seeing such a thing before. I've quickly scanned the Parkin book, no joy but it lists S34934 - 35023 as new to the SR so it's probably one of these.

Notice too how prominent the roof ribs are - Bachmann's were way too prominent to begin with but removing them completely wasn't really the answer either. Perhaps Tri-ang had it about right....................in the early 1960s!! 

 

Thanks.

It was the raised alloy window frames that made me think it might have been one,

 

cheers

[jonny777]

On 29/05/2021 at 23:22, Neil Phillips said:

 

Air brakes weren't easily fitted to the Westerns either! Pretty much impossible with the smaller Warships. Even the Brush Type 4s proved a challenge.......

 

The first Peak into Cornwall was D151 on 30/12/69 and it appeared many times on the same down and up workings throughout January 1970 as local crew training got underway. It wasn't long before I went for a short ride behind it from Truro to Redruth and I recall returning to Truro in a Mark 2 SO behind maroon FYE Warship D809 Champion and there were two Mark 2s in the train, W5206 and W5210, so it must have been one of those - this pair were often seen down there at the time. I wasn't particularly interested in coaching stock until July 1968 when chocolate & cream-liveried W34885 turned up, which was hard to miss!

 

Thankyou for this, as it helps another (long ago) thread on how late into the 1960s would a chocolate and cream passenger carrying Mk1 be seen on BR (not therefore including the BGs used for a short time on the Bournemouth Belle). 

[Fat Controller]

There's a photo on p22 of 'Heyday of the Hydraulics' taken in June 1977 at Deepcut, showing D824 Highflyer on the 10:20 Exeter- Waterloo. Formation is:-

BG (b/g)

Mk1 catering vehicle (green)

Mk 1 SO (maroon)

Bullied SO? (Green)

Mk 2 FK (Green)

Unidentified Bullied (Green)

The rest of the train is out-of-shot.

[ianwales]

Thanks for all the replies, 

 

ian

[Fat Controller]

9 minutes ago, ianwales said:

Thanks for all the replies, 

 

ian

Another oddity that may be of interest to you, Ian.

In the 1960s, the Cornish Riviera (and some other West of England workings) ran with a rake of Mk1s, but with a Hawkesworth BSK or SK at the head.

P49 of 'Heyday of the Warships' has a blue and grey SK on a mixed maroon/B&G rake), taken at Par in May 1967

P 14 of 'Heyday of the Hydraulics' has a maroon BSK at the head of the 09:45 Churston- Paddington in September 1962. Most of the stock is brown and cream.

The reason for the Hawkesworth coach was apparently to allow the stowage of a catering trolley- the doors on Mk 1 compartments was slightly too narrow.

Something else that might interest you was the use on 'Internal' WR services of ex-LNER stock, both Gresley and Thompson, instead of Mk1s. This was to release Mk 1 stock for conversion for the Bournemouth Electrification.

 

[Halvarras]

43 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Another oddity that may be of interest to you, Ian.

In the 1960s, the Cornish Riviera (and some other West of England workings) ran with a rake of Mk1s, but with a Hawkesworth BSK or SK at the head.

P49 of 'Heyday of the Warships' has a blue and grey SK on a mixed maroon/B&G rake), taken at Par in May 1967

P 14 of 'Heyday of the Hydraulics' has a maroon BSK at the head of the 09:45 Churston- Paddington in September 1962. Most of the stock is brown and cream.

The reason for the Hawkesworth coach was apparently to allow the stowage of a catering trolley- the doors on Mk 1 compartments was slightly too narrow.

Something else that might interest you was the use on 'Internal' WR services of ex-LNER stock, both Gresley and Thompson, instead of Mk1s. This was to release Mk 1 stock for conversion for the Bournemouth Electrification.

 

 

There were three Hawksworth SKs in blue/grey livery - W1719W, W2135W & W2283W - used for the purpose you describe during 1967 (I must have seen them that year and maybe even ridden in one but as mentioned above to me at the time a coach was a coach was a coach.....!) Page 33 of 'Heyday of the Hydraulics' shows that maroon ones could still appear as late as August 1967 though, very handy as I can run one behind my blue Kernow D600 'Active' without having to repaint a Hornby model - modern tight-fitting and normally well-glued glazing puts me off the idea. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

June 1977

 

??

 

Mike.

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

??

 

Mike.

'67; sorry.

[Phil Bullock]

Sorry can’t post a link but if you Google D837 MIAC you should find D837 with a MK2 FK at Malvern

[30851]

4 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Sorry can’t post a link but if you Google D837 MIAC you should find D837 with a MK2 FK at Malvern

Is that the prototype MK2 W13252?

 

Rob

[Halvarras]

56 minutes ago, 30851 said:

Is that the prototype MK2 W13252?

 

Rob

 

Looks like it to me Rob. I remember seeing this a few times in the early 70s, Reading/Oxford areas probably. Instantly recognisable, Mark 1 windows on a Mark 2 bodyshell.